Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Heralds Anarchic is a pretty insane formation. From Wrath of Magnus, the requirements are simple yet the bonuses oh-so-good.

3-9 Heralds, no other tax. +1 free Warp Charge for each Herald.

So...this is pretty nuts actually, and with the removal of the Psyker from Inquisitorial Warbands, a Herald from this formation is the cheapest Warp Charge generator in the game, at 22.5 points per Warp Charge! Thus makes for one of the few cases in the game where adding an additional Mastery Level makes the Herald *less* point-efficient as a battery compared to just buying more Mastery Levels.

A unit of Blue Horrors grants 2 Warp Charge at 11 models. Use them and an escort and you have 4 Warp Charge for 100 points. So combine a Daemon CAD and Heralds, and you can get 15 Warp Charge at 400 points!

But other than serving as an obscene Warp Charge battery, be it for summons or Magnus, can the Heralds be usable for other builds? I imagine that Heralds are a glass cannon, and Heralds on Discs moreso. You get 2 dice each for an approximate 75% chance to manifest Warpflame. Add additional die rolls for extra Tzeentch powers, and a trio of Disc Heralds could theoretically plug into a Chaos Marine army and give them their Land Speeder analogue.

Am I missing anything else or is attaining a critical mass of Warp Charge really all there is to them?

They're nice if you're already taking a Daemon CAD and want to use your HQ slots for something other than Heralds (FW, D-Thirster, Belakor, LoC, Princes, Masque etc) and you can just grab a unit of screamers and stick the heralds on disks and hide them there or leave them on foot and jam them in a horror squad.

Also a handy way of getting Paradox into pretty much any army with no tax. Hide the single model on foot out of LoS which is easy 'cause they're basically just a horror and then just by taking the formation you're already self sufficient as you generate 6 dice minimum and paradox means you're only burning 5 dice a turn for a summon. Going all out and taking the Exalted Locus of Conjuration as well can mean being assured of pumping out 4d6 str6 AP4 Flickering Fire shots a turn at BS4 too and you can always roll one of the other heralds on div for prescience and do a passable job at AA while you're at it.

Speaking of prescience, this is probably the cheapest way to get Div casters into a CSM army (only other way is the balestar, Exalted TSons Sorcs and Ahriman IIRC). There are quite a lot of units in the CSM dex who would love to be twin linked, have a 4++ or be rending against a hard target like a WK and with 3-5 units each generating 2 dice, again, they can easily be self sufficient, if not overly reliable.

Can also be useful to nominate one of the heralds as a warlord to get around not having an allied detachment be the same faction as your primary, though that's pretty niche.

You can also roll them all on summoning and 1/6th of the time you're getting possession, so a "free" LoC or Bloodthirster isn't terrible at all.

Honestly if you have the detachment to spare and are running 2 heralds anyway I can't really see why you wouldn't just grab the extra for this formation. I was just running the CAD before it with plans of having 2 heralds to go with a lord of change but going with this for the heralds now instead.

4 of these puppies, running in a screamer-star with the IWND locus, grimoire, and one rocking a paradox? Enjoy the madhouse. Your opponent will throw everything at it (and likely not make a dent if you have Fateweaver too), or ignore it. Only D has any chance of hurting it. If he throws everything at it, congrats; you win. Your other demons will mop up. If he ignores it, kill his nastiest armor with it (and for the love of God, avoid D stomps) or his hardest armored squad. Pick your targets wisely though. Avoid Necron wraiths in a Decurion (but hunt and kill that Spyder). Then sick a unit of fiends and seekers on the wraiths and watch them puff out of existence. Screamers ARE the elite and tank killers of the demon list. And this great ball of summoning and warp charges in their midst boosting them to levels of insanity? Yeah...go wild!!

What I intend to do with mine, is to get a bunch of the heralds on disks, and have a backline of horrors. You can then jetbike up the board with all the heralds, unleash hell in the psychic phase, then turbo boost to the back of the horrors in coherency. Enemy never really gets a chance to shoot at the heralds that way, and you can use the herald's shooting to mow down anything getting close to the lines.

Will likely be using an aegis defense line and the daemonic incursion so that the horror units can get a 2+ cover by going to ground behind the aegis.

Evileyes91 wrote:
What I intend to do with mine, is to get a bunch of the heralds on disks, and have a backline of horrors. You can then jetbike up the board with all the heralds, unleash hell in the psychic phase, then turbo boost to the back of the horrors in coherency. Enemy never really gets a chance to shoot at the heralds that way, and you can use the herald's shooting to mow down anything getting close to the lines.

Will likely be using an aegis defense line and the daemonic incursion so that the horror units can get a 2+ cover by going to ground behind the aegis.

ICs can only join units in the movement phase. Turbo boosting back to the horror units will still leave the heralds as a separate unit by them selves

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The Heralds Anarchic is a pretty insane formation. From Wrath of Magnus, the requirements are simple yet the bonuses oh-so-good.

3-9 Heralds, no other tax. +1 free Warp Charge for each Herald.

So...this is pretty nuts actually, and with the removal of the Psyker from Inquisitorial Warbands, a Herald from this formation is the cheapest Warp Charge generator in the game, at 22.5 points per Warp Charge! Thus makes for one of the few cases in the game where adding an additional Mastery Level makes the Herald *less* point-efficient as a battery compared to just buying more Mastery Levels.

A unit of Blue Horrors grants 2 Warp Charge at 11 models. Use them and an escort and you have 4 Warp Charge for 100 points. So combine a Daemon CAD and Heralds, and you can get 15 Warp Charge at 400 points!

But other than serving as an obscene Warp Charge battery, be it for summons or Magnus, can the Heralds be usable for other builds? I imagine that Heralds are a glass cannon, and Heralds on Discs more so. You get 2 dice each for an approximate 75% chance to manifest Warpflame. Add additional die rolls for extra Tzeentch powers, and a trio of Disc Heralds could theoretically plug into a Chaos Marine army and give them their Land Speeder analogue.

Am I missing anything else or is attaining a critical mass of Warp Charge really all there is to them?

They have access to divination they don't have to roll on the Change discipline and with the Paradox hellforged artifact you can guaranteed get a WC 2 spell off with only 3 dice. Prescience anyone!

Do we think that all the Heralds need ML3? Or would 1 vanilla herald with 11 Blue Horrors be good? Basically have a 100pt unit that still rolls on Malefic, generated 4WC and has a BS4 Flickering fire

Or is there a "sweet spot" at ML2 since you then generate 3WC?
Or if you have the points, just go all ML3?

-

Honestly, this is what I find so interesting about the Heralds. They're one of the few units in 40k where adding extra MLs makes them slightly less efficient in terms of points per Warp Charge. That said, if you're running the Herald + Blue Horrors as 100 points for 4 WC, 125 points for 5 WC is still the same ratio point for point. The main difference is you get a better chance of getting that one power you want, or can forfeit rolling for powers atogether and go "Prescience + Summoning + Flickerfire" and call it a day.

In practice, I'm seldom a fan of making a Herald ML 3. Two sounds means such a character is fragile, and I usually find that there aren't enough scenarios where I both want to cast more than 2 powers from a given Herald, and I have the Warp Charge for it. Given the choice between making a Herald ML 3 or adding Exalted Locus of Conjuration, I usually prefer the Locus, simply because S6 is seldom not appreciated (especially when popping Rhinos).

 Galef wrote:
Do we think that all the Heralds need ML3? Or would 1 vanilla herald with 11 Blue Horrors be good? Basically have a 100pt unit that still rolls on Malefic, generated 4WC and has a BS4 Flickering fire

Or is there a "sweet spot" at ML2 since you then generate 3WC?
Or if you have the points, just go all ML3?

-

Personally I'm testing them out as a battery/baiting mechanism, 3 lvl 1 Heralds 1 with paradox, then I position them so that if the enemy deep strikes to try to take them out they have to deal with a 10 man squad of Rubric Marines with a Soulreaper Cannon, or with a 5 man squad of Havocs with Plasma Guns with Prescience on them.

A barebones pandaemoniad with lorestealer's host and heralds anarchic costs 381 pts, has 3x ML1 Heralds, 3x 11 blue horrors and the blue scribes. Gives you 12 WC, magic siphon, a random free spell from the scribes, 37 bodies with 4++ and split. If you make it your primary detachment, you get access to one of the coolest warlord trait tables ever, with a great possibility to get yourself daemons with a default 3+ invul save and also a very very cool, rerollable Tzeentch warpstorm table.

Maybe it's not the best thing ever in daemon lists, but it is hands down the single best WC battery for Magnus.

I wrote the following list to explore the idea of using Heralds Anarchic as "Landspeeder" techpieces to round off a Death Guard army. This is actually very cool from a Psychic "economy" point of view.

I have 12+D6 Warp Charge base. This is enough to do one of two things:
-Summon twice on 5 dice, ignoring "Lose d3 Warp Charge" from Perils.
-Blast my foe. Each Herald can throw 3 dice at Flickerfire, and each Sorcerer can throw 2 dice at Psychic Shriek.

Mutilators are a cheap Purge tax, but FNP makes them even more painful to remove, especially if they DS into the foe's backfield. Everything else shoots.

++Death Guard CAD++
Sorcerer on Palanquin w/ Force Axe, ML 3, and Spell Familiar - 180 [Warlord]

16 Cultists of Nurgle - 106
16 Cultists of Nurgle - 106

Sicaran w/ Heavy Bolters and Dozer Blade - 160
5 Havocs, 4 Autocannons - 130
5 Havocs, 4 Autocannons - 130
Void Shield Generator - 100

++Death Guard Purge Detachment++
Sorcerer on Palanquin w/ Force Axe, ML 3, and Spell Familiar - 180
Mutilator of Nurgle - 61
Mutilator of Nurgle - 61
Mutilator of Nurgle - 61
Sicaran w/ Heavy Bolters and Dozer Blade - 160
5 Havocs, 4 Autocannons - 130

++Heralds Anarchic++
Herald on Disc w/ Exalted Locus of Conjuration - 95
Herald on Disc w/ Exalted Locus of Conjuration - 95
Herald on Disc w/ Exalted Locus of Conjuration - 95

Total: 1850

Evileyes91 wrote:
What I intend to do with mine, is to get a bunch of the heralds on disks, and have a backline of horrors. You can then jetbike up the board with all the heralds, unleash hell in the psychic phase, then turbo boost to the back of the horrors in coherency. Enemy never really gets a chance to shoot at the heralds that way, and you can use the herald's shooting to mow down anything getting close to the lines.

Will likely be using an aegis defense line and the daemonic incursion so that the horror units can get a 2+ cover by going to ground behind the aegis.

1. IC can only join units in the Movement phase.

2. If a herald on disc is in a unit of horrors they can´t go to ground as the herald stops them because he is on a bike.

Not sure I buy that. Jetbike can't go to ground, but I don't see why it would stop the rest of the unit doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm there is a specific rule that a character can't leave a unit of he or the unit has gone to ground. So once they go down your heralds stuck.

Is it not in the same vain that a unit who has 1 person with a jump pack who hasn´t used it in the movement phase gets to reroll the charge range. The whole unit is effected by the 1 models rule. Therefore the whole unit would be unable to go to ground because 1 model can´t.

Another example is the Cataphractii terminator captain. He gives everyone Slow and Purposeful so devestator marines can move and shoot nromal (benefit) but can´t overwatch (negative).

 rawne2510 wrote:
Is it not in the same vain that a unit who has 1 person with a jump pack who hasn´t used it in the movement phase gets to reroll the charge range. The whole unit is effected by the 1 models rule. Therefore the whole unit would be unable to go to ground because 1 model can´t.

Another example is the Cataphractii terminator captain. He gives everyone Slow and Purposeful so devestator marines can move and shoot nromal (benefit) but can´t overwatch (negative).

Those instances specify that they work for the unit (the FAQ specifies that the individual model can use his fleet if happens to be the initial charging model, and S&P specifies that the rest of the unit gets S&P)

It's not a general game mechanic that 1 model's rule affects the unit. In fact it's the opposite since the special rule's section specifically says that rule only confer to the unit if the rule specifically says it does.

Ok. But the fact that you can´t choose to go to ground with 1 model surely effects the choice of being able to go to ground

 rawne2510 wrote:
Ok. But the fact that you can´t choose to go to ground with 1 model surely effects the choice of being able to go to ground

No. You have to actually find a rule that says that to be the case for that to be true. Because there are a lot of instances that do not work that way.

Having 1 bike in a unit doesn't prevent the rest of the unit from running (and vice versa)
Having 1 infantry model doesn't prevent a jet pack unit from assault jumping 2d6
Having 1 infantry doesn't stop a bike unit from jinking
Having 1 normal IC doesn't stop a psyker unit for manifesting psyker powers

One model's restriction does not affect the whole unit unless it says so.

no but non of your examples explicitly state that a unit can´t do something. Every example you state there has no negative that could possibly stop the other option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don´t have my rule book with me so can´t check my thoughts for a counter at the moment. It may be ok for them to go to ground but I haven´t seen an argument or rule yet to change my mind convincingly

 rawne2510 wrote:
no but non of your examples explicitly state that a unit can´t do something. Every example you state there has no negative that could possibly stop the other option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don´t have my rule book with me so can´t check my thoughts for a counter at the moment. It may be ok for them to go to ground but I haven´t seen an argument or rule yet to change my mind convincingly

There isn't a rule that says "negatives" prevent the entire unit for doing that action. It's just that simple. You've made an assumption with no actual rule to back it up.

thats what i mean as I don´t have the book with me to validate it like with SaP which I know explicitly stops the devestators from overwatching when charged

 rawne2510 wrote:
thats what i mean as I don´t have the book with me to validate it like with SaP which I know explicitly stops the devestators from overwatching when charged

SaP specifically says in its rule that one model with SaP gives every model in the unit SaP. That is the reason the entire devastator unit can not overwatch

A Bike's inability to G2G does not say this. These are completely different situations

They are an amazing summoning battery and insanely good if added to a Daemonic incursion with askyhost.

All take discs, all ml3 if you have the points. One with grim, one with paradox, one with oracular dias. Roll on the tzeentch warpstorm and add+1/-1 from the incursion to get 5s and 8s (3+ harness, -1ml for all spells). Roll all on maelefic. Cursed earth for all the screamers, and summoning 2+ units a turn with the tzeentch warp storm table for 425 points. Crazy effective next to an incursion skyhost

thisisnotpancho wrote:
They are an amazing summoning battery and insanely good if added to a Daemonic incursion with askyhost.

All take discs, all ml3 if you have the points. One with grim, one with paradox, one with oracular dias. Roll on the tzeentch warpstorm and add+1/-1 from the incursion to get 5s and 8s (3+ harness, -1ml for all spells). Roll all on maelefic. Cursed earth for all the screamers, and summoning 2+ units a turn with the tzeentch warp storm table for 425 points. Crazy effective next to an incursion skyhost

Be carefull with this. Skyhost is not a core choice for the Incursion, so you need a core + the Skyhost. That starts to get really pricy.

Plus I'm not 100% sold that the modifier from the incursion works on the tzeentch storm.

I like the idea of sticking them in a mini screamer star, mainly to keep them safe, but you might be better off spending the points on just taking a second heralds formation (except on kill points... a horde of heralds is terrible for kill points.. an army of 41 heralds could be hilarious though)

If you have a primaty detachemnt with a warlord who is tzeentch then they can use the tzeentch warpstorm with the incursion bonus.

But the incursion must be the primary and the warlord must be tzeentch

Well, every model in the primary has to be daemon of tzeentch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primary could be the heralds could it not? The incursion bonus should still work with the tzeentch warp storm then. Does the incursion have to be primary to get the reroll then?

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Well, every model in the primary has to be daemon of tzeentch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primary could be the heralds could it not? The incursion bonus should still work with the tzeentch warp storm then. Does the incursion have to be primary to get the reroll then?

To the first part not every model in the primary detachment would have to be tzeentch. Tetrad for 1 isn´t.

second part. hmmmm good point. I might have to concede that. there is no explicit requirement for incursion detachment to be the primary unless the wording specifically states it in the rule (don´t have book with me) I know certain detachment rules say if detachment is primary warlord gets re-roll blah blah blah

I mean,every model in the primary has to be tzeentch in order to use the tZeentch warp storm. It's not just the warlord

gah will need to reread that as I was thinking of using it with fatewaever and my Slaanesh lot