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I'd reckon that no one would dispute that Rough Riders, in their current form, are somewhat lackluster of a unit. In my opinion, the reasons for this are as follows:
- Their standard load-out (specifically their Hunting lances) pigeonholes them as anti-MEQ assault units; undermining the options available to them so as not to waste the points you've paid for their Hunting lances.
- Their unimpressive stats which make them poorly suited for the role mentioned above.
- Poor cost efficiency as you could probably be as effective in close combat using other units for less points.
- Competition for Fast Attack slots.
- Units that would complement Rough Riders and keep pace with them compete for the same slots.
With all these in mind, I'd like to attempt to revamp the Rough Riders. Before, people have suggested simply porting the Rough Rider platoons used by the DKoK. However, I feel that they don't really suit the theme of the general Imperial Guard - namely of featuring units that have few special rules and high flexibility (having different roles depending on the gear they're equipped with). As such, I thought I'd instead change them to an Elite choice and take cues from cavalry troops used during WWI:
May include up to 5 additional Rough Riders for 10 points per model.
The Rough Rider Sergeant may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons lists.
The Rough Rider Sergeant may take Melta bombs...... 5 points
Up to 2 Rough Riders may replace their Lasgun with one item from the Special Weapons list.
Any Rough Rider may replace his Lasgun with a Laspistol for free.
The entire squad may take:
- Hunting lances...... 2 points per model
- Carapace armour...... 1 point per model
By setting it up as above, I feel that it sets the situation so that:
- The Rough Riders would be a good choice for Plasma guns (2 Wounds making it safer for Gets hot).
- The option of using Melta bombs doesn't conflict with the use of Hunting lances (since realistically, a Rough Rider squad won't survive long enough to use both).
- Point for point, Rough Riders make better close combat units than Conscripts and regular Guardsmen (dealing as many attacks on the charge with equal number of wounds, in addition to HoW).
- Rough Riders can more easily be taken alongside other mobile units such as Hellhounds and Sentinels (since it's now in an Elite slot).
Thoughts? Comments and criticisms appreciated.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/24 14:38:03
I am a huge rough rider fan (and have 55 built only 25 painted) so I am always for an upgrade. And am in the process of building a stand alone codex for them so...You can download it here! http://edwardmystcreations.weebly.com/l-roughriders-codex.html
I do think the 2 wounds for that cost may be too much. They do get shot down pretty badly, agreed, but that 2 wounds will basically guarantee they get a very strong charge in which may be too much. Otherwise I like your ideas and don't see a problem. How much should two wound RR's cost? More than SM assault troops. In mathhammer 2 wounds is close to the equivalent of on auto made save...but the 5+ save for RR's modifies this (if you put them in carapace it really gets gigantic(and people always will at +1 point, the difference between a 5+ save and 4+ save is nearly an extra 50% unit size because most weapons AP5), they make 50% saves already). So say they get shot by a full 10 man squad in rapid fire range with BS4 and S4 AP 5 weapons (let us say SM's) (Ill round up, I roll good). 15 hits hits, 10 wounds, 5 saves, 2 models lost...If 8 RR's with a sgt charge the same unit you get 2-3 HOS (1 dead) hit 8.5 times and wound 6-7 a total of 7-8 dead, before they even swing. Too great an advantage for me. And Sm's cost more the same as your RR's (adding lance and carapace, I think). To really do any damage to this unit, your opponent would have to fire 2-4 full squads at this unit. With their 12" move, if your opponent gets more than 2 turns of shooting, you've done something wrong, and he will get 1 if you go first. For me, this is too powerful. Way too powerful? No. Within a few points too powerful? Yes. Maybe 3 more or so?
And yes, I know this is a little too specific in a game with so much variety, but it was the argument I could formulate at this time.
I also see your points on their limited role. Heavy charge, some anti tank if bought a certain way. But IG is always strongest as a combined arms army. If the enemy is too worried about my Chimera troops and their hvy flamers to concentrate on RR's he is in trouble.
With a 12" move and re-roll charge range, I rarely have problems getting my RR's into CC. I always boost them by having my psycher close by for buffs (the 4+ invuln off divination is one example)
One issue right now is the lack of formations for IG. That means the fast attack argument, although I completely agree with your arguments, is moot. You can buy as many units of 5 as you want. I run anywhere from 3, 10 man squads (if I want to stick to formation rules) or 8, 5 man if my opponent doesn't care. I trample people...
My experience shows...1 unit of 10 RR's very hard to use and one use. Multiple units of RR's stacked or protected by infantry, very effective. Generally, for 220 points of RR's, 75% of the time I destroy enemy units worth 150% to 200% of that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/12/24 17:52:50
Keeping the hobby side alive!
I never forget the Dakka unit scale is binary: Units are either OP or Garbage.
edwardmyst wrote: I do think the 2 wounds for that cost may be too much. They do get shot down pretty badly, agreed, but that 2 wounds will basically guarantee they get a very strong charge in which may be too much. Otherwise I like your ideas and don't see a problem. How much should two wound RR's cost? More than SM assault troops. In mathhammer 2 wounds is close to the equivalent of on auto made save...but the 5+ save for RR's modifies this (if you put them in carapace it really gets gigantic(and people always will at +1 point, the difference between a 5+ save and 4+ save is nearly an extra 50% unit size because most weapons AP5), they make 50% saves already). So say they get shot by a full 10 man squad in rapid fire range with BS4 and S4 AP 5 weapons (let us say SM's) (Ill round up, I roll good). 15 hits hits, 10 wounds, 5 saves, 2 models lost...If 8 RR's with a sgt charge the same unit you get 2-3 HOS (1 dead) hit 8.5 times and wound 6-7 a total of 7-8 dead, before they even swing. Too great an advantage for me. And Sm's cost more the same as your RR's (adding lance and carapace, I think). To really do any damage to this unit, your opponent would have to fire 2-4 full squads at this unit. With their 12" move, if your opponent gets more than 2 turns of shooting, you've done something wrong, and he will get 1 if you go first. For me, this is too powerful. Way too powerful? No. Within a few points too powerful? Yes. Maybe 3 more or so?
Bear in mind that at T: 3, those 2 wounds count for nothing to anything stronger than a Multi-laser thanks to instant death. Also, consider that the DKoK's Death Riders go for 15 points per model and get Carapace armour, Hunting lances, rerolls to failed Dangerous terrain tests, Feel no pain (6+), immunity to Fear, and don't have to take Morale tests at 25% casualties on top the 2 Wounds and 2 Attack base.
As for the limited slots argument, that is primarily for CAD setups.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/12/24 18:14:35
I think the big fall down is that in a sci-fi game, they're assumed to be riding horses.
I'd like to see options for different mounts, such as riding Dire Bears or Elephants allowing them to tote in battle cannons, ostriches or raptors that are jetbike-fast, pterodactyls, giant eagles or crows that make them like assault troops, sabre-tooth tigers that give them speed and extra melee punch, fire-breathing salamanders that let them use a flame template attack.
Heck, even an option for Dirt Bikes would be appreciated.
I'm a little skeptical of the two wounds applied generally because you start wandering into the 'Screw it, we're all Death Riders!' zone. As of IA12 Death Riders are 15pts/model for that statline, carapace, hunting lances, laspistols, 6+ FNP, and reroll failed Dangerous Terrrain tests, yours are 13pts/model with the same gear (except lasguns instead of laspistols) and no FNP or dozer-blade. It isn't a question of power, more a question of personality, distinctness, and interestingness; I'd personally like to see a shock-lancer unit that could re-use the lances (on the logic that they can reload the heads of the explosive lance when not in combat the way Iron Fang Uhlans in Warmachine can) and a separate dragoon unit with lasguns, special weapons, and some sort of harassment effect (move-shoot-move, some interaction with pinning, force a unit to snapshot, et cetera) rather than just stapling an unfocused set of upgrades onto the existing profiles.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stormonu wrote: I think the big fall down is that in a sci-fi game, they're assumed to be riding horses...
Keep in mind that while 40k is sci-fi it's also weird and baroque. The Tau are the only clean/shiny sci-fi army, everywhere else we've got people wax-sealing scripture to their armour to protect themselves from harm, wizards casting runes to read the future, overdecorated revolver-rifles that look like something out of a nineteenth-century sci-fi novel, and people hitting other people with swords. One of the central bits of 40k's aesthetic is the stark contrast between incredibly advanced technology in such clumsy packaging, and the archaic societies that are throwing around said power. Horses make perfect sense in that context.
That said cyber-horses and weird space horses (more subtle weird space horses, like the Tallarn Mukaali or a Seanchan torm (lizard-cat thing ridden like a horse, for those not familiar with obscure details buried in gigantic '90s fantasy novels), rather than giant critters that'd necessitate dramatically different rules) would be pretty cool.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/25 19:12:52
After some thought and rule-checking, it appears that Rough Riders are supposed to be the IG's bike unit. What about giving them +1 Toughness and Jink?
I'd also suggest (at least as an option), for them to have hot-shot Lasguns instead of regular Lasguns (perhaps saying their built into the lances themselves?).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/26 05:31:49
Stormonu wrote: After some thought and rule-checking, it appears that Rough Riders are supposed to be the IG's bike unit. What about giving them +1 Toughness and Jink?
I'd also suggest (at least as an option), for them to have hot-shot Lasguns instead of regular Lasguns (perhaps saying their built into the lances themselves?).
That kind of takes away their flavour though, IMO, as rough riders are exactly that, a cavalry unit, not a biker one.
I feel that part of their issue is that hunting lances are one use only (you'd assume they'd carry more than one or, as someone mentioned, replace the charge set on it). Remove that one-use restriction or allow them to exchange them for power lances instead. Adding in hit and run would give them more longevity as a unit as well as make sense.
It'd also be interesting to see a 40K version of outriders from fantasy where you can get a shooty version with lascarbines (16" assault 2 lasguns).
However, back to the OP. I wasn't aware of the Death Riders of Krieg cost. I never purchased that book, and cost keeps me from now. Again, your arguments make sense and not really here to dispute, but i still feel the 2 wound idea is too much. What are some other 2 wound units that cost under 20 pts a model? (I play IG, SM, and Sister's so only really have Ogrynns to compare too). I debated two wounds in my made up codex of all rough riders, but I just couldn't get myself confidant with a cost, and of course once 2 wounds available forget the rest. I Don't think it is ridiculous, just a cost issue if that makes sense.
Keeping the hobby side alive!
I never forget the Dakka unit scale is binary: Units are either OP or Garbage.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm a little skeptical of the two wounds applied generally because you start wandering into the 'Screw it, we're all Death Riders!' zone. As of IA12 Death Riders are 15pts/model for that statline, carapace, hunting lances, laspistols, 6+ FNP, and reroll failed Dangerous Terrrain tests, yours are 13pts/model with the same gear (except lasguns instead of laspistols) and no FNP or dozer-blade. It isn't a question of power, more a question of personality, distinctness, and interestingness; I'd personally like to see a shock-lancer unit that could re-use the lances (on the logic that they can reload the heads of the explosive lance when not in combat the way Iron Fang Uhlans in Warmachine can) and a separate dragoon unit with lasguns, special weapons, and some sort of harassment effect (move-shoot-move, some interaction with pinning, force a unit to snapshot, et cetera) rather than just stapling an unfocused set of upgrades onto the existing profiles.
Except the options I've put forth (aside from Lasguns) either already are options in the current Rough Rider or come stock. The main difference here is what's being traded (Lasguns in place of Hunting lances) when each Rough Rider selects from the Special weapons list. This, I feel, would help a player better focus an individual unit's role through upgrades without the various bits of wargear competing with one another.
Maths-wise, for the remaining 2 point difference per model, the DKoK gain immunity to Fear and having to take fewer Morale tests on top of the other special rules you mentioned (FNP 6+ and rerolling failed Dangerous terrain tests). As such, at 10 points per model, I feel that my idea is still less cost efficient than the DKoK's Death riders (who have even more slot efficiency by being able to be taken in platoon). At best, I can see it being upped to 11 points per model but certainly anything beyond 12 points per model would veer it to being no longer worthwhile to take.
I can definitely see where you're coming from especially with regards to adding additional rules and/or features to help make it more interesting. However, I feel that "personality, distinctness and interestingness" is somewhat antithetical to the Imperial Guard; at least from an overall codex perspective (rather than individual regiments). From a design standpoint, Imperial Guard units are really light on special rules, especially with respect to anything non-abhuman, with the bulk of their capabilities accomplished through the sheer brute force of playing the numbers game (be it through volume of people of access to high strength, low AP weaponry) with maybe one (and a second, minor related) special rule/gimmick that sets it apart and that the unit is being designed around while still keeping the base unit a multi-purpose tool that can be upgraded to meet various roles. And it is to this philosophy that I was designing towards so as to be in keeping with the overall theme and style of the existing IG units. Where Veterans are about access to Special weapons and BS: 4, Scions with their ability to Deep strike right on top of their targets, my aim was for the Rough rider's defining trait being having 2 wounds.
Grimskul wrote: It'd also be interesting to see a 40K version of outriders from fantasy where you can get a shooty version with lascarbines (16" assault 2 lasguns).
Not to be overly pedantic but the key difference between a cavalry carbine and full-length rifles (at least traditionally) is that the former is shorter and thus easier to manipulate but at the cost of poorer overall accuracy especially at range. As such, a more accurate representation of that dichotomy would be for their profile to be Range: 12", Type: Assault 2; which is the same profile as Shotguns. Now, whether or not Shotguns should be renamed Las-carbines altogether, and so benefit from things like FRFSRF, is a whole different topic that I think is worth talking about.
Grimskul wrote: I feel that part of their issue is that hunting lances are one use only (you'd assume they'd carry more than one or, as someone mentioned, replace the charge set on it). Remove that one-use restriction or allow them to exchange them for power lances instead. Adding in hit and run would give them more longevity as a unit as well as make sense.
On the flip side, removing the "One use" restriction would necessitate a massive premium onto the unit for a weapon that is essentially as good, if not better, than a Power weapon. From a traditional standpoint, it does make sense for them to only be equipped with one Hunting lance. Traditional lancer doctrine calls for the single charge to break the enemy's line after which the cavalryman continues fighting using his saber (which is, after all, the TRUE weapon of the gentleman!) or melee weapon of choice if you're talking truly medieval times. If I'm not mistaken, even in WWI, lancers only ever carried a single lance at a time.
edwardmyst wrote: What are some other 2 wound units that cost under 20 pts a model? (I play IG, SM, and Sister's so only really have Ogrynns to compare too).
For comparison, Ork Nobs clock in at 18 points per model with better Strength, Toughness and Attacks; worse BS and Armour saves; a lower height profile making them less visible; and the ability of picking and getting into transports for protection.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/12/27 02:15:35
Stormonu wrote: I think the big fall down is that in a sci-fi game, they're assumed to be riding horses.
I'd like to see options for different mounts, such as riding Dire Bears or Elephants allowing them to tote in battle cannons, ostriches or raptors that are jetbike-fast, pterodactyls, giant eagles or crows that make them like assault troops, sabre-tooth tigers that give them speed and extra melee punch, fire-breathing salamanders that let them use a flame template attack.
Heck, even an option for Dirt Bikes would be appreciated.
Ahh, but not just horses, space horses. In space. IE Deus ex machina. can run 60mph for hours at at time, redundant organs, immune to some poisons (too bad the riders aren't) fearless steeds.
And dire bears are a dark eldar beast master option, which is why is equally unplayable.
As the AM are WW1 or WW2 in space, its a shame that the WW1 Calvary charge is so ineffective. But even in medieval days, there were horsemen using fusils to devastating effect from moderate range, and were armored enough to bring pain up close.
