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I've always thought that the Space Marines were these ultra-devout and convicted warrior monks, but it turns out that they're supposed to be way more secular than ordinary mortals, and buy less into the God-Emperor story.

When did this kinda fluff first appear?

Space Marines began as atheists and many chapters kept their atheism. Just like the Imperium, worshiping the emporer came later.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Space Marines began as atheists and many chapters kept their atheism. Just like the Imperium, worshiping the emporer came later.

Bro, you need to read more carefully.

I asked about IRL chronology, not in-universe chronology.

Oops I thought the question was in universe and thus the premise of the question was incorrect. IRL I'm not sure when Geedubs fleshed out the distinction between his atheist imperium and the religious mess they have.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Oops I thought the question was in universe and thus the premise of the question was incorrect. IRL I'm not sure when Geedubs fleshed out the distinction between his atheist imperium and the religious mess they have.

what's Geedubs?

Geedubs is a phonetic shortened name for GW. G = Gee W = Double you but shortened to Dubs.

Gee dubs == Gee Doubleyou == GW == Games Workshop

 Flinty wrote:
Gee dubs == Gee Doubleyou == GW == Games Workshop

oh I see haha

anyway, I believe it originated from the HH series and they wanted to show how the Space Marines remained true to the Emperor's atheistic ideals, though it doesn't make much sense in the "modern" Imperial context.

Bah, ninjad

I think the Marine chapters have always been described as following a different route to the ultra religious masses. As soon as they evolved out of the Rogue Trader spec ops/convict troopers, they have viewed themselves as reverent to the Emperor as the master of mankind but not treating him as a god. It was another way of making g them special in he background through the Primarch relationship with the Emperor.

Even in the very first book - Rogue Trader - they were religious Zealots/ indoctrinated and drug enhanced warriors.

Fortress Monasteries and the like are there from day one.

The God-Emperor being an Athiest is a relatively new invention.

But the chapters have always had their own teachings and beliefs separate from the Ecclesiarchy. Few of the chapters view the Emperor as a God but as revered father of their own primarchs.

 Flinty wrote:
But the chapters have always had their own teachings and beliefs separate from the Ecclesiarchy. Few of the chapters view the Emperor as a God but as revered father of their own primarchs.

That came later - the earliest depictions of named Space Marine Chapters had them ALL as adherents of the Imperial Faith, else the Adepta Sororitas would descend upon them and cleanse them (p268 RT)

See Rogue Trader and Chapter Approved: Book of the Astronomican for depictions of both the White Scars and Space Wolves as fairly normal Chapters.

I recall that the 3rd edition Black Templars were near-unique for their adherence to the Imperial Creed (and still are). The other chapters all had their own cults that honored the Emperor and their Primarch in different ways but only the Black Templars bought into Ecclesiarchy orthodoxy. So the lore has had Space Marines being distinct from the Imperial mainstream since at least 3rd edition, but that didn't necessarily mean atheism.

I have the raven guard index astartes article from way before the HH novels that talks about at least that chapter being somewhat secular in comparison to most other chapters which implies both that the idea of something like the secular crusade-era imperium was already there, but also that chapters were still in the early 2000s general religious, and also the article refers to the chapter staging post-battle data sermons by the the chaplains, indicating that even if they aren't interested in worshipping a god, they still speak in terms of the religiosity of the rest of the imperium. The Index Astartes article on chaplains also talks about the space marines' disputes with the ecclesiarchy, but only in the sense that the space marines are less or differently religious, not irreligious.

 Saber wrote:
I recall that the 3rd edition Black Templars were near-unique

Actually at the time they did reject the imperial creed; their belief pattern was that they were devout and sanctimonious about their sacred atheistic crusade. This does seem contradictory but it was the case at the time.

Considering Astartes are basically immortal warrior angels and the primarches are demi-gods. Their loyalty, servitude and reverence for a being still greater than that is basically the same as god-worship.

But when you take away the hyperbole "immortal" and approach it more honestly the rest of the sentence falls apart. Not only do they die but they die quite often. Wiping out entire chapters appears to be part of the initiation process of becoming a badass that gets gak done (right after destroying an avatar of Khaine).

 Saber wrote:
I recall that the 3rd edition Black Templars were near-unique for their adherence to the Imperial Creed (and still are). The other chapters all had their own cults that honored the Emperor and their Primarch in different ways but only the Black Templars bought into Ecclesiarchy orthodoxy. So the lore has had Space Marines being distinct from the Imperial mainstream since at least 3rd edition, but that didn't necessarily mean atheism.

Templers are closest to mainstream imperial religion.
That's true.

There are other devout chapters but there different, to doffrwnt degrees or unique cults.
The space marines are in conflict as they vary, but are also too powerful to challenge.

The Space Marines beliefs have been explicitly separate from the Imperial Creed since at least as early as 2nd edition. Somewhere it is said that they see the Emperor as a superior being/greatest human to ever live/their father, but specifically not a god.

This isn't to say that Space Marines don't have their own spirituality. It just takes a different form than Emperor-is-god.

 Insectum7 wrote:
The Space Marines beliefs have been explicitly separate from the Imperial Creed since at least as early as 2nd edition. Somewhere it is said that they see the Emperor as a superior being/greatest human to ever live/their father, but specifically not a god.

This isn't to say that Space Marines don't have their own spirituality. It just takes a different form than Emperor-is-god.

Although wierdly pretty much every bit of fluff has them (in universe) speaking about Him as the God Emperor and in fact worshiping Him

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The Space Marines beliefs have been explicitly separate from the Imperial Creed since at least as early as 2nd edition. Somewhere it is said that they see the Emperor as a superior being/greatest human to ever live/their father, but specifically not a god.

This isn't to say that Space Marines don't have their own spirituality. It just takes a different form than Emperor-is-god.

Although wierdly pretty much every bit of fluff has them (in universe) speaking about Him as the God Emperor and in fact worshiping Him

That came later.

2nd edition definitely had a mention of them not viewing the Emperor as a God, and then later fluff has slowly re-written this.

 insaniak wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The Space Marines beliefs have been explicitly separate from the Imperial Creed since at least as early as 2nd edition. Somewhere it is said that they see the Emperor as a superior being/greatest human to ever live/their father, but specifically not a god.

This isn't to say that Space Marines don't have their own spirituality. It just takes a different form than Emperor-is-god.

Although wierdly pretty much every bit of fluff has them (in universe) speaking about Him as the God Emperor and in fact worshiping Him

That came later.

2nd edition definitely had a mention of them not viewing the Emperor as a God, and then later fluff has slowly re-written this.

were they warrior monks back in 2nd ed?

Maximus Bitch wrote:
I've always thought that the Space Marines were these ultra-devout and convicted warrior monks, but it turns out that they're supposed to be way more secular than ordinary mortals, and buy less into the God-Emperor story.

When did this kinda fluff first appear?

I believe this coincides with the GW's rather conscious attempt to take advantage of a "hot topic" in the Real World.

This tends to be standard procedure for the company btw, i mean take a look at all the intellectual properties it has taken inspiration from to flesh out a game's lore that really started off as a way to encourage people to become attached to the models they buy.

Repositioning the Emperor as this......caricature of secular humanism... a kind of almost weirdly Ayn Randian (without the capitalism obsessiveness) sentiment paradoxically combined with the cult like status accorded to leaders of Totalitarian States...... just seem like the thing to do when they decided cranking out Horus Heresy novels.

If you scooch back a bit maybe a few years in this forum and on Warseer, you'll find people who strongly identify with this sort of Emperor, decrying the corruption of the Imperium....

Which is kind of funny too, given that Graham Mcneill, the writer of the Last Church and in a certain sense i'd say the "father" of this new version of the Emperor, has explicitly stated that he wrote the Emperor to be .....well.. to put it plainly.... an @22hole. Or to quote Mcneill

The Emperor was right...and yet he's also an arrogant short-sighted tyrant.

And thats kind of the internal drumbeat underlying the experience of the Horus Heresy - a "Secular Empire" butting heads against mankind's desire to worship.

And i don't necessarily mean worship some Sky Daddy, but really any sort of Concept or "Truth" (Or Imperial Truth ) that blocks out a persons perceptions of the world.....

......which basically summarizes the issues with the Primarchs really. ......and worshipers of Chaos for that matter.

That's where you'll find the Real-Life Genesis of Secular Space Marines - an attempt to Capture that Tension in the 30K Narrative.

But it also flows into the 40K narrative and actions. Because in a sense, the Emperor for all his long years of life, all his knowledge, all his experiences..... was the WORST possible person to judge human nature. Because he judged what humans could do based on his own personal experiences..........and he stopped being human a long long time ago.

And in a universe that is basically out to destroy humanity - be it Chaos incursion, Xenos plot, or just plain old infighting, people....even Space Marines.... need something to keep them going. Something to tell them that all the sacrifices, all the sorrows, all the pains are worth it.

Because the alternative is to lose oneself in the total ecstasy offered by one of the Ruinous Powers. All four are just parts of human.... or rather sentient beings psyche. The Thrill of Battle and Slaughter, the Sensation of Pleasure/Pain, the Intellectual distraction of Complication and Puzzle, and the sardonic Irony of Death....

Basically, in a meaningless world, your focus in life can either become emotionally-stunted addict, constantly seeking your next "fix" for whatever set of instincts your Personal Ruinous Power governs.

Or you can strive to be something better, something more balanced, to live out the full capacity of what being Human really means........ And Best of all, you have a Guide and Role Model to follow...

.......And So the Emperor Protects.........

They may call the Emperor a Man, but the way they treat him differs little from how the Ecclesiarchy does, except in terminology and specific ritual details. They pray to him, seek his blessings, think he is immortal, has supernatural powers, and watches over them from a spiritual realm, and think they will join him in the afterlife.

The terminology differences may mean a great deal to them and to the Ecclesiarchy, but that just emulates so many religions in the real world, where hair-splitting has led to schisms and wars.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The Space Marines beliefs have been explicitly separate from the Imperial Creed since at least as early as 2nd edition. Somewhere it is said that they see the Emperor as a superior being/greatest human to ever live/their father, but specifically not a god.

This isn't to say that Space Marines don't have their own spirituality. It just takes a different form than Emperor-is-god.

Although wierdly pretty much every bit of fluff has them (in universe) speaking about Him as the God Emperor and in fact worshiping Him

That came later.

2nd edition definitely had a mention of them not viewing the Emperor as a God, and then later fluff has slowly re-written this.

were they warrior monks back in 2nd ed?

Yep - from the very beginnig - Rogue Trader has a cut away drawing of the Space Wolves Fortress Monestery and in the description it says: (p160-161)

As in all Space Marine Chapters, the fighting troops of the Space Wolves are warrior-monks

it continues with:

The exact nature of the Marine religious ritual, belief and expression, varies from Chapter to Chapter, but is centered around the tenents of the Imperial Cult and the spiritual hegemony of the Ecclesiarch

It was only later that some Chapters were described as less Monastic.

Isn't the existence of Chaplains and their Ecclesiarchy/Rosarius proof of 40K era Chapters having faith in the Emperor?

Has their role/status changed or been retconned? Are they merely a formality to represent mutual affiliation as the techmarines do for the AdMech?

 Anfauglir wrote:
Isn't the existence of Chaplains and their Ecclesiarchy/Rosarius proof of 40K era Chapters having faith in the Emperor?

Has their role/status changed or been retconned? Are they merely a formality to represent mutual affiliation as the techmarines do for the AdMech?

The role of the Chaplain was originally just to keep an eye on the Chapter's Librarians. Somewhere along the line this morphed into them being more like actual Chaplains and responsible for morale and spiritual health and the like, although it's never (as far as I'm aware) gone into a lot of detail about just how 'religious' any of that is.

 insaniak wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:
Isn't the existence of Chaplains and their Ecclesiarchy/Rosarius proof of 40K era Chapters having faith in the Emperor?

Has their role/status changed or been retconned? Are they merely a formality to represent mutual affiliation as the techmarines do for the AdMech?

The role of the Chaplain was originally just to keep an eye on the Chapter's Librarians. Somewhere along the line this morphed into them being more like actual Chaplains and responsible for morale and spiritual health and the like, although it's never (as far as I'm aware) gone into a lot of detail about just how 'religious' any of that is.

Not quite - the first mention of a Reclusiarch is RT p161 as a religious officer - the original RT is very clear that marines are ALL warrior monks. I think it was 2nd edition when they started writing new background for the actual Chapters and Chaplins

Atheism isn't synonymous with reason or rationality. I can see why people make that link in the modern age, because of who the big names are in New Atheist circles and these are the concepts they champion. Reasoned, skeptical, and having faith in Science might all be common descriptions of a 21st century atheist, but this is the 41st millennium. First off supernatural powers are a fact of life in this world, so being a 100% materialist is right out.

Space Marines merely don't believe in divinity, but that doesn't stop them from being superstitious in many other aspects. Think of it like Communism. Atheistic in its views on the material world but fanatical and dogmatic in practice, basically a secular religion in most places it appeared. Space Marines have the same relationship, except their creed can more or less be a faith in the Manifest Destiny of humanity as envisioned by the Emperor, and they approach it rather fanatically. They just come off as more reasonable when compared to the Dark Age superstitions of the greater Imperium.

When was this change made? Atleast by 3rd edition. I have the Index Astartes books from this time period, and there is a who,e section dedicated to elaborating on Space Marine's diversion from Ecclesiastical norms.

Maximus Bitch wrote:


were they warrior monks back in 2nd ed?

It sort of happened around the time 3rd came out.
Most just thought of the Emp as a well ard granddaddy until the templars came along.
But they arent child soldier/ criminals now either. Andy took the criminal soldiers to star craft.

Given that Space Marines draw their numbers from previously-ordinary Imperial citizens, at what point do they convince their recruits that the Emperor is not a God?