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Introduction: This is a massive wall of text, and is composed of brainstorming notes and hence ill-organized. If anything doesn't make sense (which is entirely likely) ask and I'll see what I can do. I'd appreciate comments, criticism, suggestions, remarks, etc. on any or all of this.

As I suspect some of you may be aware I've been very, very grumpy about the Imperial Agents book; it felt like it was designed towards players using the armies in it as allies and offered nothing to those of us who actually play the Inquisition and the Orders Militant. Before Imperial Agents was announced I'd been working on a set of homemade Inquisition rules based on the 3e books and a fanmade 5e update to them I liked, I'd hoped I could shelve them and play with the official rules but after reading the IA book I've taken them back out again.

In this post I've explained a large number of changes I'd like to attach to the Grey Knights and the Inquisition, referencing, supplementing, and extending current and former Grey Knight, Inquisition, Imperial Guard, and Imperial Armour content. If successful this fan Codex would be centered around a 3e Ordo Malleus Codex-esque game that requires 3+ rulebooks (Imperial Agents, Grey Knights, and Militarum Tempestus/Imperial Guard/IA3 or 4, at least) to replicate under the current rules, hopefully enabling as a consequence richer dedicated Inquisition, Stormtrooper Regiment, and Grey Knight armies.

A few notes before I begin: I don't like special characters as a straight upgrade on generic characters, so I've incorporated a number of effects that only exist on special characters in the current state of the game into generic characters. I'm not planning on deleting them, but I'd like them to be unique rather than overlapping with generic characters and diminishing them by doing the same things better, and I'd rather get the basics of the Codex working first. I've allowed a number of units to select their psychic powers, I'm aware that other armies can't do this and I'm aware that allowing this to be used with the core-book powers has the potential to be grotesquely overpowered. Randomly-generated powers are to my mind a core part of why psychic powers are so all-or-nothing in 7th; you can't plan around what powers you roll if you bring one psyker, but you can if you bring ten or fifteen. I'd rather see less randomness in list-creation and more balance in the options, to give the dice less influence on the outcome of the game. That said allowing a psyker to pick powers off the core-book tables is asking for trouble so for the moment I've limited that to powers in this book. Lastly I've started this under the assumption that this army should be able to function in a CAD, to that end I haven't worked on creating formations and I've planned around a single list incorporating Inquisitorial and Grey Knight elements. I'm open to creating formations later but I'd like to put together an army that works without them first.


The fundamental problem with the Grey Knights is that they're an expensive elite melee unit disguised as a generalist unit and stretched across an entire Codex. They're paying an incredible amount of points for effects that aren't that good (storm bolters) or that they just can't make use of (Brotherhood of Psykers, Force Weapons), they've got abilities that are brutal and terrifying played against Daemons (Banishment, Force Weapons) and nigh-irrelevant against many other armies, and there are broad classes of units (jink-shenanigans bikes, high-armour shooting units, walkers, superheavies) that they just don't have an answer to. I'd like to keep with a short list of basic assumptions, I don't want to change what the equipment is or its basic role, I don't want to add a pile of new options not represented by the models, and I don't want to just give up and start stapling more of the Space Marine motor pool onto the list, but beyond that everything is fair game.

Problem One: Basic army organization. The current Codex and the 5e Codex split the three units from the 3e book into six; instead of PAGK, Terminators, and Purgators we now have PAGK, elite PAGK, Terminators, elite Terminators, Interceptors, and Purgators. In order to reduce the role overlap I've backed off to five units: Paladins (with a set of loadout options to replicate current Purifiers, or run around in artificer armour with Interceptor packs, as well as just replicating current Paladins) as an HQ-bodyguard unit, Terminators (in the present draft designed to sit somewhere between current Terminators and current Paladins) in the hard-hitting high-statline Elites slot, Strike Squads (the basic line unit we all know and love) in Troops, Interceptors (teleporting troops set up to chase down fast opponents) in Fast Attack, and Purgators (full heavy weapon load power-armoured units) in Heavy Support. I've also reorganized the characters a bit; instead of the Brother-Captain/GM in Terminator armour, the Brotherhood Champion in artificer armour, and the Librarian in Terminator armour I've got one Brother-Captain/Grand Master profile with the option to be in artificer armour or Terminator armour and put Librarian and Brotherhood Champion in as optional upgrades. The Techmarine remains separate for now.

Problem Two: Statlines. The 3e Grey Knight book gave the Grey Knights a rule called True Grit that let them treat their storm bolters as an extra close combat weapon when not charging; the 5e book took that away in trade for a 5-10pt option (4pts in the current book) for two close combat weapons along with significantly increasing the hitting power of the Nemesis weapons. I don't want to see a needlessly complicated special rule return, but I would like to see the increased reliability of multiple attacks over the increased hitting power, so I've given Grey Knights an extra attack on profile across the board. Strike and Interceptor squads have 2, Justicars, Terminators, and Paladins have 3, the Paladin Justicar and most characters have 4, and the Grand Master has 5. Nobody else makes their melee units pay for extra close combat weapons, and Daemons come in swarms just as much as they come as individual giant monsters. This next point could degenerate into 'my Space Marines are better than your Space Marines!' bickering quite easily, but I've also brought across-the-board WS5 back from the 5e book and am considering giving Paladins BS5 as well. This one is for lore reasons at some level (Bloodletters shouldn't be hitting Grey Knight infantry on 3+, for instance), but more for practical reasons. Grey Knights are always going to be outnumbered, and giving them WS5 is just about the smallest edge I can give them in melee without writing a needlessly complicated special rule. Whether this will ripple up to give characters higher WS/BS remains to be seen.

Problem Three: What does 'Grey Knight' mean? The basic inherent special rules attached to the 'Grey Knight' unit type get shuffled and renamed quite a lot, in the 3e book Grey Knights got Fearless, True Grit (see problem 2), The Aegis (psychic denial on all units before the effect existed more broadly), The Shrouding (enemies rolled spotting distance as if night fighting was in effect against Grey Knight units), and Rites of Exorcism (Daemons take -1 Ld while there are any Grey Knights on the field). In the 5e book 'Grey Knight' meant ATSKNF, Preferred Enemy (Daemons), Combat Squads, Brotherhood of Psykers, and The Aegis (rewritten this time to impose a -1 penalty to psychic tests for powers targeting the Grey Knights), this edition The Aegis has been revised to reroll 1s for denial tests.

My current theory drops Combat Squads and brings back Fearless, and grants Adamantium Will passively. I thought The Shrouding of old was a fantastic effect for allowing a small low-model-count army to play the game without just getting blasted off the table from the opposite corner, that said I'm opposed to denying the enemy the ability to play the way a hard spotting distance rule would so I've based my implementation on 6e Night Fighting (Stealth against attacks originating 12-24" away, Shrouded against attacks originating more than 24" away). The armies that really need to (Tau, Guard) can ignore it, the Grey Knights have to play to take advantage of it, and it's a tweak/nudge towards letting the Grey Knights get close rather than a hard brute-force limitation. I've also taken the "The Aegis" name and used it for a rule that confers a 4+ roll to ignore Perils of the Warp effects. The Eldar have a way to control Perils with the Ghosthelm, I didn't want to give the Grey Knights that sort of straightforward and reliable effect since the Imperium's psykers and psychic tech ought to feel rawer/cruder than the Eldar equivalent, but at the same time the Grey Knights are going to be better protected than most Imperial psykers since they're dedicated to going around directly fighting Daemons and are supposed to be better at resisting possession. In the same vein I'm tempted to include a clause that a Possession result on the Warp Storm table will kill a random Grey Knight but will not create a Daemon afterwards, though I'm hesitant to write a rule referring to a specific effect in another book.

I've also resurrected Brotherhood of Psykers for vehicles, and 'Grey Knight vehicles' also get Adamantium Will and a reinforced version of The Aegis giving a 3+ save. They're too big and noisy to benefit from The Shrouding, though, and vehicles were already Fearless.

Problem Four: Equipment. Nemesis weapons are an annoying problem; if I'm going to increase Attacks across the board I can't leave AP3 force weapons on every model, but I haven't come up with a solution I find entirely satisfying. In the 3e book Nemesis weapons always gave +2 Strength, ignored all armour saves as well for Justicars, Terminators, and Brother-Captains, and were only Force Weapons when the Grand Masters got their hands on them. The 5e book took away the differing effects by wielder type aspect and instead split Nemesis weapons into swords (which gave +1 Invulnerable save), halberds (which struck at +2I), Daemonhammers (force thunderhammers), the Warding Stave (2+ Invulnerable save in melee), the Falchions (extra close combat weapon), and the Dreadnaught/Dreadknight-only Doomfist (Dreadnaught close-combat weapon) and Greatsword (reroll failed to-hit/to-wound/penetrate armour in melee). In the current book all Nemesis weapons reroll to wound/penetrate armour against Daemons when Force is in effect but otherwise are basically just slight tweaks on generic force weapons; the sword is just a force sword, the falchions are just two force swords, et cetera.

I've been toying with various fixes and it seems to me that the bog-standard Nemesis Weapon as used by a basic power-armoured Grey Knight cannot be a full-on force sword, especially if I'm planning on increasing the number of Attacks available. My current theory for the baseline is to make Nemesis weapons' AP dependent on the wielder's Mastery level; to a non-psyker they're AP5, to Strike, Interceptor, and Purgator squads they're AP4, to Terminator and Paladin squads and most characters they're AP3, and to the Grand Master they're AP2. Hammers, the stave, and the Dreadnaught weapons would maintain their own profiles with fixed AP. This effect is called 'Mindrazor' later on as a placeholder name.

Beyond that I'm not sure how important differentiating halberds, falchions, and swords really is, and I'm not sure how much I care about making sure 'Nemesis Force Weapon' emphasizes the 'Force' part as opposed to rebranding them as just Nemesis Weapons and relegating Force to specific spots. I've also decided to do away with the Banishment psychic power, and one option to replace it is to attach a rule to Nemesis weapons that worsens Invulnerable saves taken against them by 1 (this effect is called 'Purgation' later on as a placeholder name).

But on to the weapons more specifically:
Sword: The basic weapon. Various pieces of fluff have described it as specifically optimized for parrying/defensive reasons to justify the +1 to Invulnerable saves in melee it granted in 5th, I'm okay with keeping that effect if Nemesis weapons do need to be distinct from each other. If 'force' is getting taken out of 'Nemesis Weapon' this is probably where it'll stay.
Halberd: The big anti-monster one. I prefer the current book's +1 Strength to the 5e book's +2 Initiative, I don't know that much more needs to be done to it, though I've considered making it confer Monster Hunter. Trying to make it more of a force axe would start edging in on the hammer's territory, but if Force goes away it may get better AP to make it the equivalent of power weapon upgrades elsewhere.
Falchions. With +A to the army their primary role in the current book has been made a little more redundant. They could still do that, they could become pseudo-Lightning Claws and start granting rerolls, I'm not sure.
Warding Stave. With Adamantium Will part of the Grey Knight rule they're probably going to interacting with saves in melee. My current theory is to let the wielder reroll saves in challenges; as of right now there is no way to get better than a 4+ Invulnerable save on a character using a stave, so it'd be difficult to abuse.
Daemonhammer, Dreadnaught weapons: Force Thunderhammer and Force Dreadnaught CCW are pretty straightforward and do their jobs pretty well, I don't think there's much reason to touch them.

As to guns the problem of storm bolters has been taken up and shaken apart by people arguing over Terminators. I've got psybolt ammo from the 5e book (+1S to bolt weapons and autocannons at +20pts/squad or +5pts/vehicle) in my test rules as a stopgap but it's a clumsy solution to my mind and I'd rather take a crack at the weapon itself. Various Terminator-based suggestions have used the Salvo type, which I'd rather avoid since that would cripple PAGK further; I'd also rather try to make a Storm Bolter something other than just a bolter+. Considering its implementation in the video game Space Marine my current theory is to give it a 12" range profile with Assault 3 and an 18" range profile with Assault 2.

As for the heavy weapons the Incinerator is pretty much fine. In prior tests I'd been working with 3e-vintage psycannons (S6/AP4, Heavy 3 at 36" range or Assault 3 at 18" range), but after a recent test in which I discovered my Strike squads had no way to efficiently engage Dreadnaughts I'm reconsidering taking S7 away. I'd still like Strike squads and Purgators to have a way to engage outside 24", even if it isn't their most efficient option; going back to the dual-profile thing to avoid the Salvo type's move-and-fire stipulations my current theory is S7/AP4, no Rending, Heavy 2 out to 36" range, and Assault 3 out to 18" range. The Psilencer mostly suffers from being boring; in the 5e book it was a Strength 4 weapon with lots of shots, no AP, and Poisoned (4+) against Daemons only, in the current book it's traded conditional Poisoned for Force. It's always been a gimmicky weapon that doesn't really do anything useful, my current thinking is to go to the lore description (it's a weapon that fires psychic energy rather than physical shells) and make its profile interact in some way with how many psychic dice you're willing to dump into it. My most recent test document takes the current book's profile and trades Force for a rule that adds your Mastery level to the weapon's Strength if the unit successfully casts the Force power (so it'd be six S5 shots from a Strike squad, S6 from a Terminator squad, and S7 if you gave your Grand Master one).

More generally across a number of items I'm considering creating a 'Charged' keyword as a bin for 'does more things if you activate the Force power' effects, it seems like something that should be a core-rules concept and apply to other armies but I'm editing the Grey Knights only here.

Problem Five: Psychic Powers. For a 'psychic army' the Grey Knights in their current incarnation are incredibly bad at actually doing anything psychic; the vehicles lost Psychic Pilot (except for the Dreadnaught) in this book and everyone except the characters and the Purifiers just has Hammerhand (which seldom makes a difference and requires you to get to melee in the first place) and Banishment (which is incredibly powerful if you're fighting a Daemon deathstar list or a tanky Daemon HQ, and almost completely irrelevant if you aren't). The move in 6th-7th to WHFB-style seven-power Lores has crippled the Grey Knights in personality as well as in effectiveness, say what you will about the 5e book but the signature psychic effects from each unit were really cool and Warp Quake remains to this day one of the most colourful rules in any edition of 40k. I've tried to move back to that idea and expand on it; I've brought Psychic Pilot for vehicles back, and every unit has a signature power on top of Hammerhand (the infantry virtual-Primaris) or Fortitude (the vehicle virtual-Primaris). Characters and ML2 units get to choose their extra power(s), which lets you be more flexible and do more things. The powers:

Hammerhand: The basic power known to all Grey Knight infantry, the Blessing giving the caster and his unit +2 Strength. I've been considering changing this out for add-Mastery-to-Strength or allow it to be cast at different levels for different Strength buffs, but for now just one Warp Charge for two Strength seems to be working.

Warp Quake: The Strike Squad's signature power, this one is taken straight from the 5e book. Any model that arrives from Deep Strike within 12" of the caster suffers a Mishap, period, end of discussion. The rule was written to punish Daemons for landing near Grey Knights and to force them to make more careful use of their Icons, but it did something phenomenally useful across many matchups, and more importantly it countered a strategy without completely crippling it. You can still alpha-strike Grey Knights, you just can't appear in their face and blow them up without risk of failure and you have to work at getting the optimal angle.

Cleansing Flame: I really don't like the Purifiers' nova in the current book, it makes them an ideal counter to almost anything, leads to entirely too many rules arguments, and swings wildly from 'mediocre' to 'good' to 'incredibly broken' depending on matchup. Considering the lore descriptions I've elected to make it cause d3 S5/AP4 hits to a unit in base contact with the caster in the Combat phase of the current player turn at the same time Hammer of Wrath would be resolved; I haven't worked out how to word it yet but the intent is for it to apply to all models in a Paladin or Terminator unit (since they're the ones who know and are casting the power) (not including attached ICs), while an Independent Character would only deal hits himself. This is the Terminators' and Paladins' signature power.

Pursuit: The Interceptors' signature power, this one is made up out of whole cloth. The idea is that they're chasing down and grounding fast enemies, either to kill themselves or to let slower elements of the army catch up to; squirreled into it is an effect to let them keep pace with the enemy. Present incarnation it can be cast as a blessing to give the psyker and his unit Fleet and Move Through Cover, or as a malediction with 24" range to take Fleet and MTC away from an enemy and make them treat all terrain as Difficult. I don't know if limiting Skilled Rider, forcing FMCs to take Grounding tests in some way, or inhibiting turbo-boosting/flat-out moves/runs would make any sense, I don't have a well-formed picture of the offensive effects of this power.

Astral Aim: The Purgators' signature power. I didn't want to just hand out an Ignores Cover effect, so the current iteration of this power forces a target within 24" to reroll successful cover saves against shooting from the caster's unit this turn.

Psychic Communion: Captain/Champion/GM's signature power. Pick a Grey Knight unit in Deep Strike Reserves, it arrives immediately as if it were the Movement phase and may treat the caster as a teleport homer for this purpose. This is intended to make Reserves more reliable and enable turn one Reserves in a more interactive way, that your opponent can halt with on-table effects, and that makes you choose how to use it and/or work at getting it to go off.

Awe: Dreadnaught and Dreadknight's signature power. Enemies charge the caster as if through difficult terrain.

Phase Walk: This one isn't directly associated with a unit, it's there as an option for characters as a temporary stopgap after removing the Interceptor packs' 30" once-per-game teleport. It teleports the caster and his unit 24" in any direction, they can shoot afterwards but they can't charge. I'm aware this gives this ability out more broadly and reliably than it should, this power is almost certainly getting rewritten or axed but I'm not sure how.

Fortitude: The common-to-all-vehicles power and the only one they had in the 5e book, it makes them Venerable for a turn.

Reinforce: The Rhino and the Techmarine's signature power, this one is a blessing that adds +1 to Rhino repair rule rolls and Blessing of the Omnissiah rolls. It can target the caster or another vehicle within 6", and does stack with itself.

Quicksilver: Tentative, it isn't attached to a vehicle at the moment. Grants Move Through Cover and +6" to flat-out moves for the turn.

Force Barrier: Choose a facing and get a 4++ against attacks directed against that facing. Melee attacks are considered to be coming from the models for purposes of this rule. This is the Land Raider's signature power, it was inspired by the Imperial Knight's Ion Shield but unlike the Ion Shield you set the facing during your psychic phase so your opponent has extra time to move around it.

Wingover: The power lets the Stormraven make an immediate 90-degree turn, I was having trouble thinking of a good psychic power for a flyer and that's what I've got for now.

Machine Trance: The Razorback's signature power, make snapshots at BS2 (BS3 if you didn't move). The point is to let the Razorback serve as impromptu ground-based AA in emergencies, though not as effectively as real ground-based AA (though considerably more effective against ground targets).

I've also been considering a 'psychic relay' item to allow models to cast specific Blessings inside certain vehicles (Rhinos definitely, Inquisitorial Chimeras maybe), with effects noted in the Blessing's description (casting Warp Quake from inside your Rhino makes it work nomally but use the Rhino to measure the area, for instance).


The Inquisition, by contrast, is a number of units that have gotten carelessly smooshed into one unit rather than one that's gotten stretched into a book. By my reckoning there are no less than three distinct squad concepts stuffed into the 'Henchmen Warband' of the Inquisition from 5e and on; there's the RPG party, composed of a bunch of specialists with fancy rules; the Inquisitorial household troops, highly customizable irregulars with a massive and fancy arsenal; and the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers, proper elite Guard special forces. In trying to mash them together the current Henchmen Warband has lost sight of all three; it isn't much of an RPG party because it's designed to encourage spamming lots of the same Henchmen, it isn't much of an Inquisitorial household troops unit because its selection of kit is tiny, and it isn't much of a Stormtrooper unit because it's unskilled, underarmoured, and full of wacky specialists.

The 'Henchmen Warband' has always been a mess because it's tried to stick everyone in one nice neat unit entry, and it has failed at the RPG-party concept because it has attempted to run on the assumption that you can field a whole unit of just one kind of specialist if you really want to. With that in mind my plan is to split off the 'wacky specialist' forces, and implement them as independent slotless choices limited by how many Inquisitors are in your army, who can be deployed as part of other units if you need them. The current list of specialists:

Interrogator. He may or may not be necessary, the idea is to have a delegate baby Inquisitor if you want to stick a specific piece of equipment somewhere it's normally not accessible. Potentially overlaps with the generic 'Acolyte' for the purpose.

Priest. The classic Zealot-granting fellow. Not sure what to do with War Hymns.

Techpriest. Has power armour and fixes things. May or may not get to bring Servitors into other units with him, may or may not have some of the Joakero's effects farmed off to him as archaeotech.

Blank. Likely a smaller or weaker version of the null field the Culexis and the Sisters of Silence are hauling around, but there's plenty of lore precedent for Inquisitors searching out blanks for one reason or another.

Psyker. I've got a list of Inquisition psychic powers to take a crack at replicating the Hierophant, Mystic, and Sage henchmen from the 3e book (grant counterattack, grant Interceptor shots, and grant to-hit rerolls, respectively), but I haven't gotten the specific implementation down. Potentially gets to bring Penitent Witches along to get eaten by Perils results.

Joakero. He doesn't make a lot of sense as a core element of the Henchmen warband to me but he's also here and he's probably here to stay after three editions. I'd like to rework the table a bit to make more interesting/more worthwhile options, but I don't have any concrete suggestions on how.

Death-Cult Assassin. I've been toying with some sort of hidden-deployment rule for the sake of funniness, but I'm still working on it. I would like the assassin to be more of an assassin and less of a human Howling Banshee unit, I'm looking into more loadout options.

Crusader. He's supposed to be a character bodyguard rather than a random shieldwall posse, but he's never seemed tough enough. My favourite idea I've had so far is to let him reroll saves against wounds passed to him by Look Out, Sir!.

I've left Arco-Flagellants to their own unit. More details about other Inquisitorial units will follow, but this one post is long enough and I'm out of time so I will write those notes down later.

Redirect Inertia - I suggest renaming to "Wingover"; it's what the aerial maneuver is called.

Warp Quake - seems like there should be limitations on this; using it to disrupt a Mawloc's arrival or drop pod arrival doesn't seem appropriate. Should also probably affect Warp Spider Flickerjump though

 Stormonu wrote:
Redirect Inertia - I suggest renaming to "Wingover"; it's what the aerial maneuver is called.

Warp Quake - seems like there should be limitations on this; using it to disrupt a Mawloc's arrival or drop pod arrival doesn't seem appropriate. Should also probably affect Warp Spider Flickerjump though

One of the major points of this was to take effects that punish one Codex and are useless elsewhere and turn them into more generally applicable effects; categorizing Deep Strike effects seems like a path to a long, long list of exceptions. My rationale for Warp Quake impacting things that aren't directly teleport effects is that it's somehow messing with guidance or communication systems, that said it's a bit of a clumsy explanation backfitted from wanting a specific rules effect and it could use a second look. Perhaps a 6" radius for all Deep Strikers, and the 12" radius to specifically apply to Summoning powers since that's what the power is intended in-universe to combat?

I'll go take a look at the wording of Warp Spider flickerjump and see if I can do anything with it. I'd like to avoid referencing specific rules or items in other army books as much as possible, but lorewise it's certainly something that the rule should affect, will see what I can do.

(And good suggestion on 'Wingover', it's certainly much better than 'redirect inertia'. Will keep that for now.)

 Stormonu wrote:
Redirect Inertia - I suggest renaming to "Wingover"; it's what the aerial maneuver is called.

Could always call it a whiffferdill... but I'm not sure that's grimdark enough!

I like your suggestions (and, more importantly, your reasoning/descriptions), AnomanderRake. GW has faffed about with the various Imperial Agents codices for years and while I like the direction they're taking with the most recent book, it's still all over the place rules-wise.

My suggestion for GK, specifically, will always be to give them the ability to Assault the turn they arrive from Deep Strike. It gives them a fluffy, rather unique ability that plays to their strengths (every model having a force weapon base) and helps prevent the classic "arrive from deep strike, shoot, get shot, die" situation.

The potential for abuse, however, is pretty high, so perhaps balancing would be in order. Require them to charge as if through difficult terrain? Half the charge distance (i.e. 2D6 divided by 2)? Make them take a dangerous terrain test?

DoW

On one hand, I like that they split the assorted Ministorium Henchmen into different units. On the other hand, I dislike that there's little reason to actually use such units standalone; as is, the only reason you'll ever see anyone take Death Cult Assassins, is as a cheap Elite to unlock another Immolator, and something about that feels just plain wrong.

For such henchmen, I like the idea of there being special rules for "pure" units. Examples:

Death Cult Assassins have Fleet and Deadly Acrobatics: A unit composed entirely of Death Cult Assassins has the Move Through Cover and Hit and Run USRs. Furthermore, such a unit may move as though they were Jump Infantry (though they may not Deep Strike, and may embark on transports as normal).

Crusaders have Precision Strikes and "Holy Warriors:" A unit composed entirely of Crusaders has the Crusader and Stubborn USRs. Furthermore, a friendly infantry unit within 6" of a unit composed entirely of Crusaders may attempt to Look Out Sir any and all wounds onto that unit of Crusaders."

Etc. Basically, give such henchmen a reason to run as solo specialists rather than as glorified roadies.

Regarding Jokaero, make them cheaper, cap squad size at 5, weaken their guns, and make "customization" a "choose your buff" effect, with the area of effect dependent on how many Jokaero are in the area. Krielstone Bearer mechanics basically.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
On one hand, I like that they split the assorted Ministorium Henchmen into different units. On the other hand, I dislike that there's little reason to actually use such units standalone; as is, the only reason you'll ever see anyone take Death Cult Assassins, is as a cheap Elite to unlock another Immolator, and something about that feels just plain wrong.

For such henchmen, I like the idea of there being special rules for "pure" units. Examples:

Death Cult Assassins have Fleet and Deadly Acrobatics: A unit composed entirely of Death Cult Assassins has the Move Through Cover and Hit and Run USRs. Furthermore, such a unit may move as though they were Jump Infantry (though they may not Deep Strike, and may embark on transports as normal).

Crusaders have Precision Strikes and "Holy Warriors:" A unit composed entirely of Crusaders has the Crusader and Stubborn USRs. Furthermore, a friendly infantry unit within 6" of a unit composed entirely of Crusaders may attempt to Look Out Sir any and all wounds onto that unit of Crusaders."

Etc. Basically, give such henchmen a reason to run as solo specialists rather than as glorified roadies.

Regarding Jokaero, make them cheaper, cap squad size at 5, weaken their guns, and make "customization" a "choose your buff" effect, with the area of effect dependent on how many Jokaero are in the area. Krielstone Bearer mechanics basically.

My intent for Henchmen is to split them off from the Inquisitorial special-gear squad and make them a cadre of characters designed to spread effects around and increase the impact of sticking just one in a squad. The Crusader is supposed to be an HQ bodyguard, not a line shieldwall unit, for instance, so my theory is to let them reroll saves passed to them by Look Out, Sir! to incentivize having one or two following your Inquisitor around absorbing hits for him.

This makes more sense to me for most of the possible Henchmen, but the Death-Cult Assassins are a weird problem because they weren't in the Henchmen warband before 5th and reading the lore in Dark Heresy they sound more like trainees for the Assassinorium temples than anything else. I'm not sure if a Dark Elf Assassin-style hidden deployment mechanic where you can reveal you've got a couple disguised as stormtroopers in a squad of yours the other guy just charged would be funny or annoying, but that's the most characterful idea I've got for them so far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DogOfWar wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Redirect Inertia - I suggest renaming to "Wingover"; it's what the aerial maneuver is called.

Could always call it a whiffferdill... but I'm not sure that's grimdark enough!

I like your suggestions (and, more importantly, your reasoning/descriptions), AnomanderRake. GW has faffed about with the various Imperial Agents codices for years and while I like the direction they're taking with the most recent book, it's still all over the place rules-wise.

My suggestion for GK, specifically, will always be to give them the ability to Assault the turn they arrive from Deep Strike. It gives them a fluffy, rather unique ability that plays to their strengths (every model having a force weapon base) and helps prevent the classic "arrive from deep strike, shoot, get shot, die" situation.

The potential for abuse, however, is pretty high, so perhaps balancing would be in order. Require them to charge as if through difficult terrain? Half the charge distance (i.e. 2D6 divided by 2)? Make them take a dangerous terrain test?

DoW

I'd consider making a formation that does this, but I'd rather not more broadly since I risk making a situation where you need my Grey Knights to counter my Grey Knights (Warp Quake makes charging out of Deep Strike work less well). Current plan (in the section that hasn't been posted yet) there's a 'Stormtrooper Shock Squad' that can make disordered charges or charge out of non-Assault Vehicle transports, but since they're so undersupplied with melee tools and it doesn't work with most attached characters that one's harder to abuse.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'd consider making a formation that does this, but I'd rather not more broadly since I risk making a situation where you need my Grey Knights to counter my Grey Knights (Warp Quake makes charging out of Deep Strike work less well). Current plan (in the section that hasn't been posted yet) there's a 'Stormtrooper Shock Squad' that can make disordered charges or charge out of non-Assault Vehicle transports, but since they're so undersupplied with melee tools and it doesn't work with most attached characters that one's harder to abuse.

I think a Formation with the "assault after Deep Striking" ability is a good idea. However, I don't think it would be good to combine that with the ability to Deep Strike on turn 1 (since GK can get that ability a couple of different ways). For me, that would be too much and I'd write in something to specifically preclude it.

Personally I think we need to go back to the 5th edition rules regarding assaulting from vehicles without the Assault Vehicle rule (namely you can do so, but only if the vehicle didn't move that turn) as a blanket rule, but that's unlikely to happen.

DoW

 DogOfWar wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Redirect Inertia - I suggest renaming to "Wingover"; it's what the aerial maneuver is called.

Could always call it a whiffferdill... but I'm not sure that's grimdark enough!

I like your suggestions (and, more importantly, your reasoning/descriptions), AnomanderRake. GW has faffed about with the various Imperial Agents codices for years and while I like the direction they're taking with the most recent book, it's still all over the place rules-wise.

My suggestion for GK, specifically, will always be to give them the ability to Assault the turn they arrive from Deep Strike. It gives them a fluffy, rather unique ability that plays to their strengths (every model having a force weapon base) and helps prevent the classic "arrive from deep strike, shoot, get shot, die" situation.

The potential for abuse, however, is pretty high, so perhaps balancing would be in order. Require them to charge as if through difficult terrain? Half the charge distance (i.e. 2D6 divided by 2)? Make them take a dangerous terrain test?

DoW

Maybe give them assault from DS with a clause that only a number of units equal to the game turn number can do so per assault (t should probably be worded in a way that limits not the number of units that can charge but the number of successful charges after DSing, i.e if you DS and fail the charge then another unit that DSed in the same movement phase can try to charge too. Alternatively you could limit the number of enemy units that can be charged to a maximum of the game turn number, so you can have multiple of your units charge but have to pick one enemy unit at the start of the your turn and can only charge that, and on your next turn you can pick up to two, etc). It limits their alpha-strike capabilities but doesn't cripple reserves that arrive late.

I would say give Paladins a psychic power that gives them and anyone attached to them eternal warrior and +1 to fnp. That way they would be more durable and quit getting insta shwacked by anything with str 8. Plus you slap any of our characters with them and suddenly they are much better body guards. Giving the IC EW. Since for some reason we have no way to give grandmasters EW.
also on the same note. Give the grandmasters just 1 more wound. Why do our chaptermaster equivalents have 1 less wound and attack? Very odd to me.

Spartan117xyz wrote:
I would say give Paladins a psychic power that gives them and anyone attached to them eternal warrior and +1 to fnp. That way they would be more durable and quit getting insta shwacked by anything with str 8. Plus you slap any of our characters with them and suddenly they are much better body guards. Giving the IC EW. Since for some reason we have no way to give grandmasters EW.
also on the same note. Give the grandmasters just 1 more wound. Why do our chaptermaster equivalents have 1 less wound and attack? Very odd to me.

...It's an interesting suggestion, certainly. I'm going to have to do some thinking about the combo-abuse potential inherent in the power (tentatively named 'Eternal Watch', since that was the first phrase out of the Canticle of Absolution (as printed in the 5e book) that looked appropriate), but given the 5-model squad cap, cost, inability to get a 3++, and the existence of the Adeptus Custodes it's far from unreasonably powerful. And I do like the idea of giving the Paladins a power distinct from the ordinary Terminator squads.

There may not be much combo-abuse potential anyway, given that Angels of Death lets Smashf***er get up to FNP2+ on his own, and there aren't that many Imperial units with multiple Wounds and the ability to benefit (current implementation lets the characters pick powers known to other units to increase the army's flexibility by carrying powers elsewhere). Off the top of my head this could lead to an Interceptor-GM following a Thunderwolf deathstar around and slightly more annoying Centurions, but in both cases the effect is pretty marginal given that they're T5 (so hard to ID anyway) and only have two Wounds.

But sounds of paladins popping is one of the few joys I have left. There's nothing more awesome than GK players deep striking and then realizing on their DKs can actually catch anything in my list.

I may have not been clear. I meant the Paladins are the ones with the power. Thus, if one of our IC attached to them they would get the benefit of EW and +1 to fnp. If they left their paladin bodyguards they wouldn't have it. Making Paladins perfect body guard retinues. You could have a large squad with an apothecary (giving +1 to his fnp for a 4+) for a very hard point in your army. Or do a minimum of three with no upgrades to attach to a grandmaster/captain/librarian for look out sir meat shields with the added befefit of the EW power. Way to many times my awesome tooled out grandmaster (with awesome custom model) has been killed by very random hits with str 8. I just so happened to roll a one, and there goes 200 points. And like you said most space marine armies have a way to give EW to their HQs (the gorgons chain, shield eternal) and other than the curiass of sacrifice with its fnp and it will not die ( which both get negated by str 8) we don't have a way to make durable HQs. Even though we are supposed to be borderline mini primarchs.

Looking at custodes who far far out class Paladins for the same price ( having mostly 5 on their statlines, ap2 weapons AND eternal warrior) I think this is a fairly reasonable power to make the price tag on Paladins more appropriate.