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Look on any 40K forum, this or any other, where Lore is being discussed and peeps will always have an opinion. I think the common thing often dreamnt by the young ones is the "Return of Primarch ____"

....but no one ever seems to try to work out the ramifications a change in the Lore might cause. A lot of what i tend to see is EndTime/GameBreaker scenarios which basically crash the 40K Universe, or at minimum ruin a whole faction.

....which is a good reason to think it won't happen - it would be the equivalent of killing off the Golden Goose for GW.


So - with Profitability in mind - can you suggest a Lore Change or Future Scenario that would be good to implement? What that would be interesting to the fanbase and yet not drive 40K off a cliff of no Return? Or something not as traumatic as WH Fantasy becoming Age of Sigmar?

In the Eastern Rim, the Farsight Enclave find a backdoor into the Orks the Old Ones designed and use it to conquer into the Imperium. While the Imperium gears up for a counter-attack, the Eldar plot to pull Tyranids toward the Enclave to ensure this technological advantage is lost. Dark Eldar and Huron Blackheart also scheme to steal this technology. A Tau Ambassador tries to negotiate a technological exchange before the inevitable happens.

... and the Soul Drinkers show up for some reason. Since we'll have Space Marines one way or another, let's have at least one cool chapter involved.

As Chaos defiles the pylons on Cadia the Necrons unleash an army of pariahs to counter the expanse of the Eye of Terror.

Pariahs were cool units.

I don't play Necrons btw.

A massive Orkish civil war to rival the Horus Heresy. Some up and coming warboss doesn't like Ghazgul's face and they duke it out. The civil war threatens an entire segmentum and needs to be contained without making one side stronger.

BA go chaos, because the IoM doesn't let them have anything good.

the Tau aquire a new race with a more standard Warp drive and adapt the technology to their ships. the Tau go from being a regionl nusience on the eastren fringe, to a threat that can apper anywhere in the galaxy, the first sign of this is when a planet in segmenta Obscura embraces the Greater good, leading to a conflict between the Imperium and the Tau in a sector that did not expect to face the opponent. this conflict is made only more complex when a Chaos Warband assaults the world.


One of my biggest issues with the Tau is that, due to their travel methodology they are strictly a regional threat. this doesn't mean they're not powerful, etc, but it does mean, logisticly they can't pop up in say... segmentium pacificous. IMHO this is a HORRIABLE flaw in the species from a setting design POV, one I'd like to see addressed

How about a pre heresy traitor legion company appearing from the warp with no realisation how much time or what events have transpired, especially if it was one where their primarch was still 'alive' such as the Thousand Sons (or though they were all ready well on their way down that path before the heresy).

Would be very interesting to see how both they and the imperium would react.

Given how popular the HH novels, a simple and effective way would be to bring back some (or all, depending on how far you want to take it) of the surviving Primarchs and get the Chaos ones back into the game.

Instead of having the loyalist Primarchs reform the Imperium (which would make it too OP), make them preoccupied with thwarting incursions by the Chaos Primarchs and have them go on individual campaigns, in scenarios like Dorn vs Perturabo or Guilliman vs Alpharius at the Scouring but drag them out like the Thramas Crusade that took place over many years.

That way you can have different warzones with different chapters and opponents in the spotlight. It doesn't even have to be Primarch vs Primarch, although that would be the most effective probably.

For other races, you can boost individuals like Ghagzhkull and Farsight to epic proportions, or have the Phoenix Lords gather. They could also interact with the Primarchs like Eldrad did in Fulgrim. There's all sorts of possibilities, including temporary alliances, like with the Eldar and the Imperium to destroy the Blackstone fortresses.

Just drag out these warzones so that the doomsday scenario is closer and further escalated but still not quite there yet. They can be so preoccupied with their individuals goals that larger events like the 13th Black Crusade can still be ongoing (or have a few get involved to escalate it but not enough to tip the balance yet). These are all massive events so there's no need for them be over so quickly. It could be a bit like the Great Crusade where things are happening all the time but there's still a big pay-off at the end.

Anyway, just a thought. It's late and maybe the idea is crap

I suspect they're already gonna bring the primarchs back, Magnus the red is now on the table, and they basicly teased other primarchs coming. 2017 will be 40ks 30th anniversry, and I can't imagine they're not gonna do something BIG with it

Most of the lore changes I'd prefer involve removing unnecessary Imperial factions entirely (Grey Knights, Imperial Knights, Space Wolves, Militarum Tempestus). So I guess my opinions are invalid for. This thread.

I don't think I'm alone in this, but I don't really want significant story progression on the major arcs. The setting of 40k is so close to doomsday now that too much movement either way would either logically lead to an End Times debacle, or require significant retconning to keep it stable. I don't think it's impossible, but it is very difficult.



This I like I get that the Primarchs coming back is highly likely as there are vast untapped seams of moula to be had there. Also, I'd gladly sell bodily organs for new plastic Phoenix Lord kits.

However, it'd be hard to balance it so that the world doesn't collapse. Having all of these giant characters duking it out between them leaves space for what 40k is really about: your dudes.

If it were up to me, here's what I would do:

Don't freeze the timeline at M41...but don't really talk about major events that would screw things up either way. Stuff's happening on the major worlds, we just don't really know about it (other than maybe dropped hints in codices).

However, I'd run a succession of player based campaigns, similar to the Eye of Terror campaign but on a less grand scale. There are billions of planets in the galaxy. Pick one of them to centre the conflict over. I'd make up a compelling planet/system for the factions to fight over, run a fluffy campaign on it using both batreps from official battles at GW and player-events to drive the story forwards to its conclusion. Then, I'd write the story that's told during that campaign into the fluff so it's 'official'.

Benefits of this approach:
1. That would satisfy the whole 'move the story forward' thing, which I'm fairly certain is just code for 'give me more things to read about' rather than any actual desire to see an end to the 40k story (which is what happens when stories are moved forwards).
2. It expands the 40k universe. We get to find out about more planets, and more sectors, and more heroes rather than just reading new things about the same old ones. Would give the writers a tremendous amount of freedom to come up with some cool new stuff as well.
3. Because it's set on a non-critical world, it doesn't matter if Chaos wins and the planet is turned into a daemon world (avoiding the whole 13th black crusade retcon thing).
4. Because part of the outcome is based on player battles, it makes people feel genuinely involved in the development of the 40k story, and makes their battles really mean something.
5. It leads by example of how 40k should be played. Make up a story, have your battles and forge the narrative.

They could even make new models out of it. How damn cool would it be if, during one of these campaigns one player's squad of Marines survives every single battle they come across and slay a staggering number of daemons throughout the whole campaign. This homebrew squad gets featured in a White Dwarf battle report, so everyone gets to find out how ridiculous their achievements were.

Then, GW could produce a kit and rules for this squad (now promoted to 'daemonic war veterans' or somesuch other cool name), which immortalises their achievements and weaves it into the official fluff of 40k. How cool would that be?

They could do the same thing with homebrew SM chapters, or Craftworlds, or Kabals, or Septs, or Hive Fleets or whatever it is that constitutes your dudes. If you join into their narrative campaign, and perform so well that you gain notoriety, your particular dudes get mentioned in the official fluff surrounding that campaign.

Is that not a kickass way of 'moving the story forwards'?

GW should have just gone with the old Eye of Terror campaign results in the first place since it seems to be heading in that doom and gloom direction anyway. Cadia was embattled, but Abaddon had moved on and was heading in Terra's direction. The Imperium responded by drawing forces from its far borders (like the Tau) and that could easily be rationalized as the reason why Abaddon does not actually reach Terra, as he gets bogged down by Imperial reinforcements. Even in the midst of the doom and gloom, there were still unexpected bits of hope, such as the Eldar establishing pockets of sanity on the daemon world of Eidolon and pushing back Chaos from vast swathes of Belial IV.

The 4th edition SM Codex had the Imperium stripping the border with the Tau in order to reinforce the Cadian Gate. This was then referenced in the Tau Codex with the Tau taking advantage of weakened Imperial defenses to expand.

The 13th Black Crusade continues its drive towards Terra but is bogged down in ever increasing Imperial defenses as the Imperium strips borders to reinforce its core. Thus the two antagonists of Chaos and Imperium stalemate each other, though the Imperium buys this at the cost of sacrificing its borders.

The stripped defenses means other factions then can erode the Imperium faster than before. Individual Imperial worlds may also find themselves questioning the point of paying their tithes to the Imperium while being abandoned by Imperial forces, and end up either seceding or making their own arrangements with other factions to secure their own world's interests. The 13th Black Crusade's indirect effect of draining the Imperium's forces from elsewhere may be its greatest effect, and the resulting knock on effect of making Imperial worlds re-consider membership in the Imperium.

There can still be winners and losers of campaigns without whole factions getting wiped out of existence. Even something like the fall or destruction of Cadia does not mean the end of the Cadian product line since Cadian equipment is widely used and there are multiple Nova Cadias mentioned by FFG as existing. These Cadian survivors could easily have their culture revolve around reclaiming or avenging Cadia. Really, the Eye of Terror campaign results from 2003 served quite well in advancing the storyline without overturning the whole setting. GW just chickened out of it all those years ago.

I am still pretty disappointed with Master of Mankind, ADB had a golden opportunity to add something worth while to the canon and he botched it, IMO. This didn't have to be anything that changes the modern setting, but it is always nice to get something new that opens new avenues for later plots. I think a perfect example of this is Legion, where it turns out Alpharius is actually two Primarchs. Didn't effect the outcome of the HH one bit, but leaves open all sorts of future possibilities to have another Primarch unaccounted for.

With this in mind ADB's dancing around the origins of the Emperor really just left a bad taste in my mouth, but the part where one of the rival warlords makes the accusation that the Emperor is science experiment gone wrong I thought was a great thread that should've been followed, and could've been used to explain a few things. Revealing the Emperor is not only created but that he was created by the Eldar would've do a lot to explain a few things.

1) Why are there no human Gods in the Warp? The Eldar had their own, Tyranids have the Hivemind, Orks have Gork and Mork, but humans have nothing. The Eldar don't have to be the culprits here but it would be the logical choice for a couple reasons. Many Farseers predicted the fall of their race in advanced, and developed various plans to avoid it. Given the Eldar penchant for arrogance you think at least one might of thought that fighting the Ruinous Powers was something doable. With this in mind one(or a group) could've set out to forge a living weapon to fight against Chaos. This is where you could've even merged the original Emperor origin story(sacrificing all of primitive mankind's shaman to create a superman) with what could best be summed up as Eldar Superscience to sacrifice the future potential human pantheon to create a weapon anathema to the God's of Chaos. This is pretty fitting for the Eldar because it totally feths another race over by depriving them of any good(for lack of a better word) deities or at least one's with their interests at heart.

2) Why is the Emperor xenocidal? Being essentially the essence of mankind's goodness/purity/whatever caged into mortal flesh to serve as a weapon for arrogant aliens who would sacrifice an entire species to save their own asses really cements the motivation as to not only why the Emperor is interested in only human affairs, but in addition has knowledge of the webway, and actively uses Eldar technology.

3) Why did the Emeperor create the Primarchs? How did he get the idea? He is basically just trying to replicate the process that created him on a lesser scale. Instead of stealing another race's future he decides to steal directly from the enemies he was created to fight and turn their own power against them. Instead creating a single being that can rival himself he divides the power amongst 18 of them, assuming he can stop any single one by himself.

TheArmorOfContempt wrote:
I am still pretty disappointed with Master of Mankind, ADB had a golden opportunity to add something worth while to the canon and he botched it, IMO. This didn't have to be anything that changes the modern setting, but it is always nice to get something new that opens new avenues for later plots. I think a perfect example of this is Legion, where it turns out Alpharius is actually two Primarchs. Didn't effect the outcome of the HH one bit, but leaves open all sorts of future possibilities to have another Primarch unaccounted for.

With this in mind ADB's dancing around the origins of the Emperor really just left a bad taste in my mouth, but the part where one of the rival warlords makes the accusation that the Emperor is science experiment gone wrong I thought was a great thread that should've been followed, and could've been used to explain a few things. Revealing the Emperor is not only created but that he was created by the Eldar would've do a lot to explain a few things.

1) Why are there no human Gods in the Warp? The Eldar had their own, Tyranids have the Hivemind, Orks have Gork and Mork, but humans have nothing. The Eldar don't have to be the culprits here but it would be the logical choice for a couple reasons. Many Farseers predicted the fall of their race in advanced, and developed various plans to avoid it. Given the Eldar penchant for arrogance you think at least one might of thought that fighting the Ruinous Powers was something doable. With this in mind one(or a group) could've set out to forge a living weapon to fight against Chaos. This is where you could've even merged the original Emperor origin story(sacrificing all of primitive mankind's shaman to create a superman) with what could best be summed up as Eldar Superscience to sacrifice the future potential human pantheon to create a weapon anathema to the God's of Chaos. This is pretty fitting for the Eldar because it totally feths another race over by depriving them of any good(for lack of a better word) deities or at least one's with their interests at heart.

2) Why is the Emperor xenocidal? Being essentially the essence of mankind's goodness/purity/whatever caged into mortal flesh to serve as a weapon for arrogant aliens who would sacrifice an entire species to save their own asses really cements the motivation as to not only why the Emperor is interested in only human affairs, but in addition has knowledge of the webway, and actively uses Eldar technology.

3) Why did the Emeperor create the Primarchs? How did he get the idea? He is basically just trying to replicate the process that created him on a lesser scale. Instead of stealing another race's future he decides to steal directly from the enemies he was created to fight and turn their own power against them. Instead creating a single being that can rival himself he divides the power amongst 18 of them, assuming he can stop any single one by himself.

I don't like the idea of the Emperor being made by Eldar. It takes away the mystery behind his origins and cheapens his status as the greatest person in human history since then pretty much his uniqueness would be attributed to Eldar tomfoolery. Also, it makes the Eldar look even dumber from the double hubris of dooming their own civilization from their own excesses and giving the tools for the next great empire to rise after their fall.

In response to your first point, I believe humans don't have a pantheon like the Eldar or Orks have because they weren't as psychically active or powerful as either race, at least not as a whole. Eldar are and were far more psychically mature (Dark Eldar aside) meaning that it would appropriately be reflected in the warp. Similarly, Orks are all connected by a psychic WAAAGH-field. Humans are a latent psychic race that has yet to truly mature into a psychic race which meant that although they did contribute to the warp entities like the Chaos Gods, it was unfocused unlike the Eldar or Orks, hence why there aren't any specific Human deities in the warp. The closest at this point is the Emperor and he tried creating the Webway project precisely to help guide humanity towards their evolution as a psychic race without the drawbacks of psykers awakening that occurred during the Age of Strife.

I think it's clear why the Emperor is xenocidal, it's because he's lived long enough to witness that the vast majority of aliens are hostile and a threat to humanity as shown during the Age of Strife. Also him having lived so long means its not far-fetched to have him encounter Eldar and gain knowledge of the webway, given that the Necrons themselves were able to do so via Dolmen Gates and they weren't created by the Eldar.

One wonders if perhaps the development of a "emperor" is part of the normal development of a race as it becomes psykicly active, and that the elder gods are the... echos, for lack of a better word, of their own "emperor"

TheCustomLime wrote:A massive Orkish civil war to rival the Horus Heresy. Some up and coming warboss doesn't like Ghazgul's face and they duke it out. The civil war threatens an entire segmentum and needs to be contained without making one side stronger.

Ynneadwraith wrote:I don't think I'm alone in this, but I don't really want significant story progression on the major arcs. The setting of 40k is so close to doomsday now that too much movement either way would either logically lead to an End Times debacle, or require significant retconning to keep it stable. I don't think it's impossible, but it is very difficult.

You are not alone.

Ynneadwraith wrote:
Don't freeze the timeline at M41...but don't really talk about major events that would screw things up either way. Stuff's happening on the major worlds, we just don't really know about it (other than maybe dropped hints in codices).

However, I'd run a succession of player based campaigns, similar to the Eye of Terror campaign but on a less grand scale. There are billions of planets in the galaxy. Pick one of them to centre the conflict over. I'd make up a compelling planet/system for the factions to fight over, run a fluffy campaign on it using both batreps from official battles at GW and player-events to drive the story forwards to its conclusion. Then, I'd write the story that's told during that campaign into the fluff so it's 'official'.

Benefits of this approach:
1. That would satisfy the whole 'move the story forward' thing, which I'm fairly certain is just code for 'give me more things to read about' rather than any actual desire to see an end to the 40k story (which is what happens when stories are moved forwards).
2. It expands the 40k universe. We get to find out about more planets, and more sectors, and more heroes rather than just reading new things about the same old ones. Would give the writers a tremendous amount of freedom to come up with some cool new stuff as well.
3. Because it's set on a non-critical world, it doesn't matter if Chaos wins and the planet is turned into a daemon world (avoiding the whole 13th black crusade retcon thing).
4. Because part of the outcome is based on player battles, it makes people feel genuinely involved in the development of the 40k story, and makes their battles really mean something.
5. It leads by example of how 40k should be played. Make up a story, have your battles and forge the narrative.

They could even make new models out of it. How damn cool would it be if, during one of these campaigns one player's squad of Marines survives every single battle they come across and slay a staggering number of daemons throughout the whole campaign. This homebrew squad gets featured in a White Dwarf battle report, so everyone gets to find out how ridiculous their achievements were.

Then, GW could produce a kit and rules for this squad (now promoted to 'daemonic war veterans' or somesuch other cool name), which immortalises their achievements and weaves it into the official fluff of 40k. How cool would that be?

They could do the same thing with homebrew SM chapters, or Craftworlds, or Kabals, or Septs, or Hive Fleets or whatever it is that constitutes your dudes. If you join into their narrative campaign, and perform so well that you gain notoriety, your particular dudes get mentioned in the official fluff surrounding that campaign.

Is that not a kickass way of 'moving the story forwards'?

Should work fine.

But does it really "move THE STORY forwards" ?

Am a firm disbeliever of 40k having "THE STORY" at all, IMHO its a nice sandbox with endless possibilities.

The problem is, GW writes fluff to support releases and thus we will get bigger stuff which needs "moar bigger events" so "self-restraint" and "telling a good story" may not be the key-words one would have to check on his list.

If I was free to do as I please, I would also go for regional events where the positions in the campaign rotate. Factions tied to "defender" or "attacker" isn't the best idea IMO.
Imagine a system or a couple of systems.
And the names will be known because people fought there.
And the fluff will be written to remember.
And Models offered.
But we don't have to have that silly arms race for power in fluff and Models because it is still one story in a Galaxy of untold stories.
It isn't irrelevant for those who play.
As Temporary as it is, it doesn't put everyone and the whole background at risk, because the games played would never get to the size where the fate of a Galaxy is decided. The scale of the game would fit the scale of events.

I agree that events should be for worlds that while important aren't so key that the setting will implode if the fight ever gets resolved. worlds like Cadia, Fenris etc, should not be subject to community events.
However they could do the System of Example Exemplar, a small world on the eastren fringes, that has served as a battleground between the Tau, and the IoM for it's vast mineral wealth, b oth factions have dealt with eldar covert activity aimed after them for some time, and recently mineing on the world of example examplar IV has gone silent, as the miners are slaughtered after waking up a necron tomb.

there we have a nice little setting for a 3 way war betweem IoM, Necrons and Tau, Eldar (both dark and craft world) would be involved with a seperate objective.

BrianDavion wrote:
I agree that events should be for worlds that while important aren't so key that the setting will implode if the fight ever gets resolved. worlds like Cadia, Fenris etc, should not be subject to community events.
However they could do the System of Example Exemplar, a small world on the eastren fringes, that has served as a battleground between the Tau, and the IoM for it's vast mineral wealth, b oth factions have dealt with eldar covert activity aimed after them for some time, and recently mineing on the world of example examplar IV has gone silent, as the miners are slaughtered after waking up a necron tomb.

there we have a nice little setting for a 3 way war betweem IoM, Necrons and Tau, Eldar (both dark and craft world) would be involved with a seperate objective.

A war front across an entire sector or raids elsewhere is better than just coincidentally every major faction in the galaxy converging on one world that is supposedly not all that important.

The other main issue for events is adequately balancing for player numbers. Any conflict has to divide up the Imperium into multiple factions with perhaps mutually exclusive goals or otherwise dilute the effect of sheer Imperial player numbers otherwise it becomes virtually impossible for any other faction to win, which does not make for a fun event for other players.

 Grimskul wrote:


I don't like the idea of the Emperor being made by Eldar. It takes away the mystery behind his origins and cheapens his status as the greatest person in human history since then pretty much his uniqueness would be attributed to Eldar tomfoolery. Also, it makes the Eldar look even dumber from the double hubris of dooming their own civilization from their own excesses and giving the tools for the next great empire to rise after their fall.

In response to your first point, I believe humans don't have a pantheon like the Eldar or Orks have because they weren't as psychically active or powerful as either race, at least not as a whole. Eldar are and were far more psychically mature (Dark Eldar aside) meaning that it would appropriately be reflected in the warp. Similarly, Orks are all connected by a psychic WAAAGH-field. Humans are a latent psychic race that has yet to truly mature into a psychic race which meant that although they did contribute to the warp entities like the Chaos Gods, it was unfocused unlike the Eldar or Orks, hence why there aren't any specific Human deities in the warp. The closest at this point is the Emperor and he tried creating the Webway project precisely to help guide humanity towards their evolution as a psychic race without the drawbacks of psykers awakening that occurred during the Age of Strife.

I think it's clear why the Emperor is xenocidal, it's because he's lived long enough to witness that the vast majority of aliens are hostile and a threat to humanity as shown during the Age of Strife. Also him having lived so long means its not far-fetched to have him encounter Eldar and gain knowledge of the webway, given that the Necrons themselves were able to do so via Dolmen Gates and they weren't created by the Eldar.

Taking away the mystery is the point. It is a fact that can be filled in and doesn't hamper the story in any way, but would be a "oh damn" moment for the reader, and no one else because no one else could possibly know the truth. This would also be right up there with Eldar hubris. As for humans being to young of a psychic race that is countered pretty directly by humans basically being the Ruinous Powers favorite targets in the physical plane with all sorts of large scale warp-incursions happening due to the emotional states of large numbers of non-psychic mortals.

@1hadhqMade @BrianDavion yeah that's exactly what I was thinking

And I'm a firm disbeliever in 40k having a 'story' too, or rather one solid storyline.

I'm even more of a believer that when people say 'I want the story to move forwards' all they really mean is 'I want to read about new things happening' and they don't really care whether it happens to Cadia or another world, provided that it's interesting and they're involved enough

BrianDavion wrote:
One wonders if perhaps the development of a "emperor" is part of the normal development of a race as it becomes psykicly active, and that the elder gods are the... echos, for lack of a better word, of their own "emperor"

Well the Phoenix Lords are pretty close to that, as is the Avatar of Khaine. The Emperor however seems to be slightly different still, because he has no parallel entity in the warp. He is not a warp entity who infuses a mortal shell, or wasn't originally, although he does channel his power through mortals now, however take notice that even a Living Saint can only wield a small fraction of the Emperor's power.

I am unsure if it actually explains the creation of Gods in 40K, but the idea that they were once mortal and ascended is pretty neat, but I think the uniqueness of the Emperor as the "Anathema" implies something else. Giving him alien origins turns things on its head a bit, and is the kind of irony that is fitting to 40k and for multiple reasons. First you have a xenocidal religion built around a man who himself was created through alien design, who personally sought to stamp out religion/dogma. Toss in the fact that despite him being "the perfect man" the limitations of being human still plague him, for all his divinity and brilliance full understanding of the technology of the very race that created him still escapes his mastery.

The only way you could move the story forward would be to have the Primarchs, Pheonix Lords, other Major Character (Abbadon, Calgar, Dante etc) come out to play and ultimately die in this 'end times' and then have the story of picking up the pieces We would then enter the new millennium without that hanging over our heads. If GW engineered it so that all these big characters would die, they would have room to create new stories and new characters (and new models). If the current Space Marine Forces were virtually crippled, it might be a good reason for there to be a new founding. The damage would have been so bad that Chaos wouldn't be an 'organised' threat for a long time. Other races would undoubtedly use this opportunity to expand their own empires. Maybe a new wave of some form of belief starts to spread as well (I don't propose killing off the emperor nor bringing him back in any form). This 'end times' could bring about an age of rediscovery for the Imperium, so would allow GW to bring in new models that way as well.

The game itself would still be the same, but a bunch of new fluff to be written - basically drawing a line under the current fluff saying 'right, that's now in the past' much like the Horus Heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To add to my post

Maybe put into place some form of match reporting system, so every game has an effect. Possibly put in a database of some sort to allow people to record their character and squad names. Have a list of notable characters/squads on their website.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, if you were to have the primarchs coming back, you could have them setting their chapters (and possibly the Imperium) back on what they deemed 'the correct course' before the primarchs were killed, that would certainly give things a shakeup.

I'm of the opinion that the Emperor while he lived was only ever a man, never a god or god-like being. Anything you hear otherwise is the dogma of the Imperial Faith.

Don't get me wrong, he was a man genetically engineered sometime during the Age of Strife using technologies long lost, but a man nonetheless.

However, by the time year 40k rolls around, the fervent belief of billions upon billions of human beings that the barely alive corpse sitting atop the Golden Throne is divine has birthed a warp-god of Humanity in the image of their God-emperor.

Just my personal headcanon really, but I enjoy it

icn1982 wrote:
The only way you could move the story forward would be to have the Primarchs, Pheonix Lords, other Major Character (Abbadon, Calgar, Dante etc) come out to play and ultimately die in this 'end times' and then have the story of picking up the pieces We would then enter the new millennium without that hanging over our heads. If GW engineered it so that all these big characters would die, they would have room to create new stories and new characters (and new models). If the current Space Marine Forces were virtually crippled, it might be a good reason for there to be a new founding. The damage would have been so bad that Chaos wouldn't be an 'organised' threat for a long time. Other races would undoubtedly use this opportunity to expand their own empires. Maybe a new wave of some form of belief starts to spread as well (I don't propose killing off the emperor nor bringing him back in any form). This 'end times' could bring about an age of rediscovery for the Imperium, so would allow GW to bring in new models that way as well.

The game itself would still be the same, but a bunch of new fluff to be written - basically drawing a line under the current fluff saying 'right, that's now in the past' much like the Horus Heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To add to my post

Maybe put into place some form of match reporting system, so every game has an effect. Possibly put in a database of some sort to allow people to record their character and squad names. Have a list of notable characters/squads on their website.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, if you were to have the primarchs coming back, you could have them setting their chapters (and possibly the Imperium) back on what they deemed 'the correct course' before the primarchs were killed, that would certainly give things a shakeup.

I really like this idea. Something like Game of Thrones' red wedding for the named characters in the setting. It would be a bold move but if the old guard moved on, passing the torch to a new generation of characters perhaps, the setting would feel a bit more dynamic.

I'd be all for seeing a huge showdown on Terra with primarchs of both sides fighting, many dying, but crucially one primarch gets into the throne room and finishes off the Emperor. Lo and behold the astronomican remains (so the setting isn't too messed up) but the war leaves both the imperial and chaos forces practically broken and Terra a ruin. Suddenly there's no centre to the Imperium and everything is in flux. New setting... anything is possible. It would be a bit like the breakdown of society you see in zombie apocalypse stories where suddenly the old rules don't apply any more. There's no reason for factions disappearing because supposedly the eldar have been dying for a long time and last I checked they were doing pretty well on the table...

The problem with that is it could probably be dragged out into a book series that matches the HH series

 NoiseMarine with Tinnitus wrote:
As Chaos defiles the pylons on Cadia the Necrons unleash an army of pariahs to counter the expanse of the Eye of Terror.

Pariahs were cool units.

I don't play Necrons btw.

Same here, and agree. Pariahs spoke awesomely to a Necron long-term plan to defeat the psychic powers of other races.

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

icn1982 wrote:
The only way you could move the story forward would be to have the Primarchs, Pheonix Lords, other Major Character (Abbadon, Calgar, Dante etc) come out to play and ultimately die in this 'end times' and then have the story of picking up the pieces We would then enter the new millennium without that hanging over our heads. If GW engineered it so that all these big characters would die, they would have room to create new stories and new characters (and new models). If the current Space Marine Forces were virtually crippled, it might be a good reason for there to be a new founding. The damage would have been so bad that Chaos wouldn't be an 'organised' threat for a long time. Other races would undoubtedly use this opportunity to expand their own empires. Maybe a new wave of some form of belief starts to spread as well (I don't propose killing off the emperor nor bringing him back in any form). This 'end times' could bring about an age of rediscovery for the Imperium, so would allow GW to bring in new models that way as well.

The game itself would still be the same, but a bunch of new fluff to be written - basically drawing a line under the current fluff saying 'right, that's now in the past' much like the Horus Heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To add to my post

Maybe put into place some form of match reporting system, so every game has an effect. Possibly put in a database of some sort to allow people to record their character and squad names. Have a list of notable characters/squads on their website.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, if you were to have the primarchs coming back, you could have them setting their chapters (and possibly the Imperium) back on what they deemed 'the correct course' before the primarchs were killed, that would certainly give things a shakeup.

I really like this idea. Something like Game of Thrones' red wedding for the named characters in the setting. It would be a bold move but if the old guard moved on, passing the torch to a new generation of characters perhaps, the setting would feel a bit more dynamic.

I'd be all for seeing a huge showdown on Terra with primarchs of both sides fighting, many dying, but crucially one primarch gets into the throne room and finishes off the Emperor. Lo and behold the astronomican remains (so the setting isn't too messed up) but the war leaves both the imperial and chaos forces practically broken and Terra a ruin. Suddenly there's no centre to the Imperium and everything is in flux. New setting... anything is possible. It would be a bit like the breakdown of society you see in zombie apocalypse stories where suddenly the old rules don't apply any more. There's no reason for factions disappearing because supposedly the eldar have been dying for a long time and last I checked they were doing pretty well on the table...

The problem with that is it could probably be dragged out into a book series that matches the HH series

ugh they don't need to run around killing people off to impose change, that's lazy thinking.

TheArmorOfContempt wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:


I don't like the idea of the Emperor being made by Eldar. It takes away the mystery behind his origins and cheapens his status as the greatest person in human history since then pretty much his uniqueness would be attributed to Eldar tomfoolery. Also, it makes the Eldar look even dumber from the double hubris of dooming their own civilization from their own excesses and giving the tools for the next great empire to rise after their fall.

In response to your first point, I believe humans don't have a pantheon like the Eldar or Orks have because they weren't as psychically active or powerful as either race, at least not as a whole. Eldar are and were far more psychically mature (Dark Eldar aside) meaning that it would appropriately be reflected in the warp. Similarly, Orks are all connected by a psychic WAAAGH-field. Humans are a latent psychic race that has yet to truly mature into a psychic race which meant that although they did contribute to the warp entities like the Chaos Gods, it was unfocused unlike the Eldar or Orks, hence why there aren't any specific Human deities in the warp. The closest at this point is the Emperor and he tried creating the Webway project precisely to help guide humanity towards their evolution as a psychic race without the drawbacks of psykers awakening that occurred during the Age of Strife.

I think it's clear why the Emperor is xenocidal, it's because he's lived long enough to witness that the vast majority of aliens are hostile and a threat to humanity as shown during the Age of Strife. Also him having lived so long means its not far-fetched to have him encounter Eldar and gain knowledge of the webway, given that the Necrons themselves were able to do so via Dolmen Gates and they weren't created by the Eldar.

Taking away the mystery is the point. It is a fact that can be filled in and doesn't hamper the story in any way, but would be a "oh damn" moment for the reader, and no one else because no one else could possibly know the truth. This would also be right up there with Eldar hubris. As for humans being to young of a psychic race that is countered pretty directly by humans basically being the Ruinous Powers favorite targets in the physical plane with all sorts of large scale warp-incursions happening due to the emotional states of large numbers of non-psychic mortals.

It's a lore change that fundamentally alters the basis behind the Emperor's character. It's the equivalent of saying that the Dark Eldar's cruelty and need for torture in their society to hold off Slaanesh is altered to them using that pain and suffering to create their own version of Ynnead to defeat Slaanesh. It changes it to more "the ends justify the means" rather than the Dark Eldar sadistically choosing to continue the excesses that doomed their old Empire rather than go for the Craftworld Path system. You may think that making him of Eldar origin doesn't change anything, but then it brings up a bunch of other questions as to why the Eldar didn't bother having any real back-up plans that deal with his defection or any mention of him from the Black Library or hell just having their own Eldar uber-mensch version if they were the creators.

Large scale warp incursions typically happen as a result of psychic activity, not simply emotions. The emotions are a factor, yes, in so far that it helps weaken the barrier between reality and the warp, but they need a psyker or artefact to act as a catalyst for the warp to fully breach into reality. As mentioned by the main rulebook, it was right before the age of strife that there was the first documentation of the sudden development of human psykers. This means that humans had yet to fully realize anything psychically necessary to collectively create a god that reflected humanity, especially since psykers were a significant minority in the population. Furthermore, it is described that it wasn't emotions that started large scale daemonic incursions but rather through the inexperience of the newly developed psykers which led to daemonic possession. If emotions were enough then mankind prior to the Age of Strife would already have had to deal with daemonic incursions but they are not mentioned until after the development of psykers in humanity.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Snake Tortoise wrote:

icn1982 wrote:
The only way you could move the story forward would be to have the Primarchs, Pheonix Lords, other Major Character (Abbadon, Calgar, Dante etc) come out to play and ultimately die in this 'end times' and then have the story of picking up the pieces We would then enter the new millennium without that hanging over our heads. If GW engineered it so that all these big characters would die, they would have room to create new stories and new characters (and new models). If the current Space Marine Forces were virtually crippled, it might be a good reason for there to be a new founding. The damage would have been so bad that Chaos wouldn't be an 'organised' threat for a long time. Other races would undoubtedly use this opportunity to expand their own empires. Maybe a new wave of some form of belief starts to spread as well (I don't propose killing off the emperor nor bringing him back in any form). This 'end times' could bring about an age of rediscovery for the Imperium, so would allow GW to bring in new models that way as well.

The game itself would still be the same, but a bunch of new fluff to be written - basically drawing a line under the current fluff saying 'right, that's now in the past' much like the Horus Heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To add to my post

Maybe put into place some form of match reporting system, so every game has an effect. Possibly put in a database of some sort to allow people to record their character and squad names. Have a list of notable characters/squads on their website.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, if you were to have the primarchs coming back, you could have them setting their chapters (and possibly the Imperium) back on what they deemed 'the correct course' before the primarchs were killed, that would certainly give things a shakeup.

I really like this idea. Something like Game of Thrones' red wedding for the named characters in the setting. It would be a bold move but if the old guard moved on, passing the torch to a new generation of characters perhaps, the setting would feel a bit more dynamic.

I'd be all for seeing a huge showdown on Terra with primarchs of both sides fighting, many dying, but crucially one primarch gets into the throne room and finishes off the Emperor. Lo and behold the astronomican remains (so the setting isn't too messed up) but the war leaves both the imperial and chaos forces practically broken and Terra a ruin. Suddenly there's no centre to the Imperium and everything is in flux. New setting... anything is possible. It would be a bit like the breakdown of society you see in zombie apocalypse stories where suddenly the old rules don't apply any more. There's no reason for factions disappearing because supposedly the eldar have been dying for a long time and last I checked they were doing pretty well on the table...

The problem with that is it could probably be dragged out into a book series that matches the HH series

ugh they don't need to run around killing people off to impose change, that's lazy thinking.

I don't think of it as killing people off for the sake of it, the simple fact is that these characters have been around for a long time - Calgar has been around since second, same with Gazhskull, Yarrick, Dante - its time to pass the torch.

I would also consider not making more special character miniatures. Write them into the fluff, even create rules for them. But instead of creating the miniatures, have it so they could easily be converted. Its actually how it was for a long time in second edition. They wrote the rules, but didn't create a lot of miniatures - the idea was that the characters added to the feel of the army, then let players convert their interpretation's. Maybe that's part of me wanting special characters to feel 'special' again. In 2nd, you had to have your opponents permission to use a special character - now using special characters is almost automatic. Let players create their own characters, with their own histories.

Anything that would support more personalisation on HQs or units in general would be most welcome by me. The whole 'no model, no rules' thing is pretty toxic as far as I'm concerned.

Plus, it's counter-intuitive. I've bought whole kits just because I want to use the bits from them on other models. Wouldn't have done that if you weren't allowed to change options on them from what's in the box...

The emperor looks at some test tubes and goes "man I was drunk last night" and flushes them all and instead decides to try to help humanity better understand technology and advance them that way.