Istanbul nightclub attack - 35 dead

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**Ashiraya**

Thought 2017 would be a better year?

Here it's barely been two hours and boom.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38481521

At least 35 people have lost their lives in an attack on a nightclub in Istanbul, the city's governor has said.
Among the dead is one police officer, Vasip Sahin stated, adding that it was a terror attack.
At least another 40 were injured in the attack which took place in the Reina nightclub, in the Ortakoy area, at about 01:30 local time (23:30 GMT).
One attacker was involved, the governor said, while CNN Turk reported he was dressed in a Santa Claus costume.
"A terrorist with a long-range weapon ... brutally and savagely carried out this incident by firing bullets on innocent people who were there solely to celebrate the New Year and have fun," Mr Sahin told reporters at the scene of the upmarket Reina nightclub, which sits on the banks of Bosphorus in the city's European side.
There were reportedly as many as 700 people in the nightclub at the time of the attack, some of whom are believed to have jumped into the river to escape.
Dogan news agency reported that some witnesses claimed the attackers were "speaking Arabic" while Turkish television channel NTV said special force police officers were searching the nightclub.
Istanbul was already on high alert with some 17,000 police officers on duty in the city, following a string of terror attacks in recent months.
Many were carried out by so-called Islamic State (IS) or Kurdish rebels.
Medics and security officials work at the scene after an attack at a popular nightclub in IstanbulImage copyrightAP
Image caption
Ambulances queue up outside the nightclub
Less than a fortnight ago, the Russian ambassador, Andrei Karlov, was shot dead by off-duty Turkish policeman Mevlut Mert Altintas as he gave a speech in the capital Ankara in December.
After the shooting, the killer shouted the murder was in revenge for Russian involvement in the conflict in the Syrian city of Aleppo.

**SemperMortis**

edited.

**Spinner**

That's not quite as gross as Donald Trump patting himself on the back after the Orlando shooting.

But it's up there. It was up there when you did it before, too.

My heart goes out to all those affected by this attack.

**General Annoyance**

There have been plenty of Christian and Buddhist attacks in both South East Asia and in Africa over the past decade; they just don't make mainstream headlines as much as the Islamic ones do. Google it and have a look.

Frankly, Religion has nothing to do with Terrorism - it's just an excuse for both the attackers and the media to point fingers at other people for all the problems in the world. Terrorists lose any backing from their respective religions after they make the decision that killing people is the right answer; no religion I know of flat out says that you should kill other human beings who don't follow whatever rules they lay down.

**Co'tor Shas**

General Annoyance wrote:
There have been plenty of Christian and Buddhist attacks in both South East Asia and in Africa over the past decade; they just don't make mainstream headlines as much as the Islamic ones do. Google it and have a look.

Frankly, Religion has nothing to do with Terrorism - it's just an excuse for both the attackers and the media to point fingers at other people for all the problems in the world. Terrorists lose any backing from their respective religions after they make the decision that killing people is the right answer; no religion I know of flat out says that you should kill other human beings who don't follow whatever rules they lay down.

Exactly. And attacking the entire religion will only make it worse. They point of these terrorist attacks is to make people fear Muslims, and thus cast them out. And when people get cast out, some get angry and join radical groups. When you look and the "lone-wolf" attacks, it's almost always the same thing. Usually young men who feel persecuted or hated being radicalized and lashing out.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
General Annoyance wrote:
There have been plenty of Christian and Buddhist attacks in both South East Asia and in Africa over the past decade; they just don't make mainstream headlines as much as the Islamic ones do. Google it and have a look.

Frankly, Religion has nothing to do with Terrorism - it's just an excuse for both the attackers and the media to point fingers at other people for all the problems in the world. Terrorists lose any backing from their respective religions after they make the decision that killing people is the right answer; no religion I know of flat out says that you should kill other human beings who don't follow whatever rules they lay down.

Exactly. And attacking the entire religion will only make it worse. They point of these terrorist attacks is to make people fear Muslims, and thus cast them out. And when people get cast out, some get angry and join radical groups. When you look and the "lone-wolf" attacks, it's almost always the same thing. Usually young men who feel persecuted or hated being radicalized and lashing out.

Thats a very circular argument...

Muslims kill people. People become afraid of Muslims and 'persecute' them. So Muslims kill more people.

And frankly it doesn't explain the huge number of attacks by Muslims against other Muslims in Islamic countries.

**Frazzled**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
General Annoyance wrote:
There have been plenty of Christian and Buddhist attacks in both South East Asia and in Africa over the past decade; they just don't make mainstream headlines as much as the Islamic ones do. Google it and have a look.

Frankly, Religion has nothing to do with Terrorism - it's just an excuse for both the attackers and the media to point fingers at other people for all the problems in the world. Terrorists lose any backing from their respective religions after they make the decision that killing people is the right answer; no religion I know of flat out says that you should kill other human beings who don't follow whatever rules they lay down.

Exactly. And attacking the entire religion will only make it worse. They point of these terrorist attacks is to make people fear Muslims, and thus cast them out. And when people get cast out, some get angry and join radical groups. When you look and the "lone-wolf" attacks, it's almost always the same thing. Usually young men who feel persecuted or hated being radicalized and lashing out.

How is the Turkey attack that? Its in Turkey.
It was an attack on a Christian bar.

**General Annoyance**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Thats a very circular argument...

Muslims kill people. People become afraid of Muslims and 'persecute' them. So Muslims kill more people.

The Terrorists who call themselves Muslims/Christians/whatever are no longer really part of that religion; they are either carrying out the attacks due to misguidance from extremist groups, or because they wish to spite the group they claim to be under in order to motivate more violence and discrimination, either against them, from them, or both.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

General Annoyance wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Thats a very circular argument...

Muslims kill people. People become afraid of Muslims and 'persecute' them. So Muslims kill more people.

The Terrorists who call themselves Muslims/Christians/whatever are no longer really part of that religion; they are either carrying out the attacks due to misguidance from extremist groups, or because they wish to spite the group they claim to be under in order to motivate more violence and discrimination, either against them, from them, or both.

So they're...No True Muslims?

**General Annoyance**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So they're...No True Muslims?

Wait, what?

I didn't say that. Anyone who thinks it's justified in their religion to murder other humans is not someone who should be considered within that group; they're terrorists or extremists, that's all - no amount of religious practice can change that in my eyes.

**Spinner**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
General Annoyance wrote:
There have been plenty of Christian and Buddhist attacks in both South East Asia and in Africa over the past decade; they just don't make mainstream headlines as much as the Islamic ones do. Google it and have a look.

Frankly, Religion has nothing to do with Terrorism - it's just an excuse for both the attackers and the media to point fingers at other people for all the problems in the world. Terrorists lose any backing from their respective religions after they make the decision that killing people is the right answer; no religion I know of flat out says that you should kill other human beings who don't follow whatever rules they lay down.

Exactly. And attacking the entire religion will only make it worse. They point of these terrorist attacks is to make people fear Muslims, and thus cast them out. And when people get cast out, some get angry and join radical groups. When you look and the "lone-wolf" attacks, it's almost always the same thing. Usually young men who feel persecuted or hated being radicalized and lashing out.

Thats a very circular argument...

Muslims kill people. People become afraid of Muslims and 'persecute' them. So Muslims kill more people.

And frankly it doesn't explain the huge number of attacks by Muslims against other Muslims in Islamic countries.

It's only circular if you equate the word 'Muslim' with the word 'terrorist'.

And, frankly, sectarian violence isn't limited to one religion either. I'm sure LordofHats or someone could give us a play-by-play of different brands of Christianity going nuts on each other down the centuries.

**whembly**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
General Annoyance wrote:
There have been plenty of Christian and Buddhist attacks in both South East Asia and in Africa over the past decade; they just don't make mainstream headlines as much as the Islamic ones do. Google it and have a look.

Frankly, Religion has nothing to do with Terrorism - it's just an excuse for both the attackers and the media to point fingers at other people for all the problems in the world. Terrorists lose any backing from their respective religions after they make the decision that killing people is the right answer; no religion I know of flat out says that you should kill other human beings who don't follow whatever rules they lay down.

Exactly. And attacking the entire religion will only make it worse. They point of these terrorist attacks is to make people fear Muslims, and thus cast them out. And when people get cast out, some get angry and join radical groups. When you look and the "lone-wolf" attacks, it's almost always the same thing. Usually young men who feel persecuted or hated being radicalized and lashing out.

That not their only purpose... and really it's a minor one.

Don't forget that regular muslims are far more likely to be victimized by radical Islamism. The current iteration of ISIS wants a Caliphate and has to subjugate the muslims and persecute the non-muslims in their territories.

**Co'tor Shas**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
General Annoyance wrote:
There have been plenty of Christian and Buddhist attacks in both South East Asia and in Africa over the past decade; they just don't make mainstream headlines as much as the Islamic ones do. Google it and have a look.

Frankly, Religion has nothing to do with Terrorism - it's just an excuse for both the attackers and the media to point fingers at other people for all the problems in the world. Terrorists lose any backing from their respective religions after they make the decision that killing people is the right answer; no religion I know of flat out says that you should kill other human beings who don't follow whatever rules they lay down.

Exactly. And attacking the entire religion will only make it worse. They point of these terrorist attacks is to make people fear Muslims, and thus cast them out. And when people get cast out, some get angry and join radical groups. When you look and the "lone-wolf" attacks, it's almost always the same thing. Usually young men who feel persecuted or hated being radicalized and lashing out.

Thats a very circular argument...

Muslims kill people. People become afraid of Muslims and 'persecute' them. So Muslims kill more people.

That's the point it's a cycle. And we stop it by not casting people out or attacking them because of their religion

Radicalism, prejudice, and racism exist. Notice how I never said "no Muslims are bad people". Same how I didn't say "no Christians are bad people". Their are extremists who will their beliefs to those most willing to accept them. And Islam is not unique in this. Look at White-supremacist stuff, like Dylan Roof. Or literaly any other attack like this ever. Hell, look at school shootings, it's the same gak, but with no ideology attached to it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
General Annoyance wrote:
There have been plenty of Christian and Buddhist attacks in both South East Asia and in Africa over the past decade; they just don't make mainstream headlines as much as the Islamic ones do. Google it and have a look.

Frankly, Religion has nothing to do with Terrorism - it's just an excuse for both the attackers and the media to point fingers at other people for all the problems in the world. Terrorists lose any backing from their respective religions after they make the decision that killing people is the right answer; no religion I know of flat out says that you should kill other human beings who don't follow whatever rules they lay down.

Exactly. And attacking the entire religion will only make it worse. They point of these terrorist attacks is to make people fear Muslims, and thus cast them out. And when people get cast out, some get angry and join radical groups. When you look and the "lone-wolf" attacks, it's almost always the same thing. Usually young men who feel persecuted or hated being radicalized and lashing out.

How is the Turkey attack that? Its in Turkey.
It was an attack on a Christian bar.

The Turkey bat was also not a "lone wolf" attack.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

General Annoyance wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
So they're...No True Muslims?

Wait, what?

I didn't say that. Anyone who thinks it's justified in their religion to murder other humans is not someone who should be considered within that group; they're terrorists or extremists, that's all - no amount of religious practice can change that in my eyes.

You're saying if a Christian or Muslim commits violence, they're no longer a Christian or Muslim?

This is literally the No True Scotsman fallacy. They might not represent the majority of their group, but they don't stop being Christian or Muslim just because they've committed a violent act.

**General Annoyance**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
And frankly it doesn't explain the huge number of attacks by Muslims against other Muslims in Islamic countries.

This is more down to extremist Sects causing conflicts with the more reasonable Sects of Islam. It's also always happening in the states where there is political strife, which motivates violence between them as they start to become political factions; in the two Islamic states that I've lived in, both have the Sects that do disagree with each other openly, but keep unnecessary acts out of the mix.

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
You're saying if a Christian or Muslim commits violence, they're no longer a Christian or Muslim?

This is literally the No True Scotsman fallacy. They might not represent the majority of their group, but they don't stop being Christian or Muslim just because they've committed a violent act.

Murder? Yes. They could still be considered part of their religion, but really they shouldn't be - the act they have committed in the name of their practice is not condoned anywhere, nor is it acceptable behaviour.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

General Annoyance wrote:
Murder? Yes. They could still be considered part of their religion, but really they shouldn't be - the act they have committed in the name of their practice is not condoned anywhere, nor is it acceptable behaviour.

**General Annoyance**

Nope. I meant not condoned anywhere within the ideals of Islam. If it wasn't condoned anywhere, we wouldn't have any extremist groups.

War is a different matter compared to terrorism - one is (typically) an honourable way of settling differences between armed forces, the other is a deliberate attack against often unarmed civilians/innocents. Islam condones the former, and not the latter.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

General Annoyance wrote:
Nope. I meant not condoned anywhere within the ideals of Islam. If it wasn't condoned anywhere, we wouldn't have any extremist groups.

Thats debatable. There are plenty of Islamic scholars and Imams etc advocating violence on Arab tv.

Have you heard of MemriTV?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSEH4StvDaM2VLfnm0IMo_A

Automatically Appended Next Post:

General Annoyance wrote:
War is a different matter compared to terrorism - one is (typically) an honourable way of settling differences between armed forces, the other is a deliberate attack against often unarmed civilians/innocents.

Again, I cite Hamas and Hezbollah.

**General Annoyance**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Thats debatable. There are plenty of Islamic scholars and Imams etc advocating violence on Arab tv.

Have you heard of MemriTV?

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSEH4StvDaM2VLfnm0IMo_A

I haven't, but such groups of "Muslims" are extremists and/or terrorists. It's still pushing a misguided agenda, worsened by the fact that they have a way of feeding it into Arab media streams.

General Annoyance wrote:
War is a different matter compared to terrorism - one is (typically) an honourable way of settling differences between armed forces, the other is a deliberate attack against often unarmed civilians/innocents.

Again, I cite Hamas and Hezbollah.

Both paramilitaries of those organisations have been deemed as terrorist organisations by the UK and America, while the EU, New Zealand and Britain have recognised Hezbollah's political wing. Neither can be considered to be legitimate militaries after the acts that they have committed in the past.

**Frazzled**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
General Annoyance wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Thats a very circular argument...

Muslims kill people. People become afraid of Muslims and 'persecute' them. So Muslims kill more people.

The Terrorists who call themselves Muslims/Christians/whatever are no longer really part of that religion; they are either carrying out the attacks due to misguidance from extremist groups, or because they wish to spite the group they claim to be under in order to motivate more violence and discrimination, either against them, from them, or both.

So they're...No True Muslims?

but what if the Muslim is a Scotsman?

**Vash108**

This is awful.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Frazzled wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
General Annoyance wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Thats a very circular argument...

Muslims kill people. People become afraid of Muslims and 'persecute' them. So Muslims kill more people.

The Terrorists who call themselves Muslims/Christians/whatever are no longer really part of that religion; they are either carrying out the attacks due to misguidance from extremist groups, or because they wish to spite the group they claim to be under in order to motivate more violence and discrimination, either against them, from them, or both.

So they're...No True Muslims?

but what if the Muslim is a Scotsman?

A singularity forms and we're all fethed.

**Disciple of Fate**

If we get to play with statistics about condoning violence and Muslim Americans, I can come out to play too

From Gallup: http://www.gallup.com/poll/148763/muslim-americans-no-justification-violence.aspx

I would also like to point out that the PEW research quoted only looked at Muslims, so it is a bit one sided on religion and condoning violence.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Threads on Islam always descend into What-about-ism...

**Disciple of Fate**

Threads on terror attacks always descend into what-about-islam...

**Frazzled**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
If we get to play with statistics about condoning violence and Muslim Americans, I can come out to play too

From Gallup: http://www.gallup.com/poll/148763/muslim-americans-no-justification-violence.aspx

I would also like to point out that the PEW research quoted only looked at Muslims, so it is a bit one sided on religion and condoning violence.

Evidently what you're really saying is, don't piss off the Mormons....

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Threads on Islam always descend into What-about-ism...

Well this actually is not a thread ab out that, but a terrorist attack on NYE in Turkey.

**Shadow Captain Edithae**

Disciple of Fate wrote:
Threads on terror attacks always descend into what-about-islam...

Again with the fething Muslims who commit violence are not Muslims crap.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Well this actually is not a thread ab out that, but a terrorist attack on NYE in Turkey.

Committed by a Muslim, motivated by an extreme interpretation of Islam.

**Disciple of Fate**

Frazzled wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
If we get to play with statistics about condoning violence and Muslim Americans, I can come out to play too

From Gallup: http://www.gallup.com/poll/148763/muslim-americans-no-justification-violence.aspx

I would also like to point out that the PEW research quoted only looked at Muslims, so it is a bit one sided on religion and condoning violence.

Evidently what you're really saying is, don't piss off the Mormons....

Well, who knows what things they have prepared in the land called U-tah, no one goes to live in a wasteland voluntarily, what kind of doom base are they hiding

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Disciple of Fate wrote:
Threads on terror attacks always descend into what-about-islam...

Again with the fething Muslims who commit violence are not Muslims crap.

Cute, but its not what I meant

. Terror attacks in Turkey and Iraq. We generally only talk about it if its in the 'West'. Its a crazy violent part of the world problem, not a Muslim problem. Unless we discuss it as a Muslims problem as in most of the victims are Muslim? People always find their reasoning for violence, that does not mean that the reasoning used also condones it.

**Vaktathi**

Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Committed by a Muslim, motivated by an extreme interpretation of Islam.

Lets keep in mind that, while lots of things are done in the name of religion, their real drivers are usually more mundane political and economic issues. Even the Crusades really were more about trade routes, diverting excess population and bored soldiers, and political power games, etc. religious zealotry was mainly the cover story to sell the idea.

Are we going to pretend that without Islam or religion that Turkey would not have suffered such an attack, or does the fact that Turkey is next door to a failed state with multiple competing factions, some of which are hostile to Turkey and have limited means of attack and little inherent aggression control have more to do with it? The secular PKK has been bombing Turks for decades.

**BrotherGecko**

Nationalism is generally the underlying element in much of terrorism. From the American Christian right to the Muslim right, nationalism binds them. You would be surprised on how often a Muslim terrorist is actually a terrorist that is Muslim. Even for all the الله أكبر, it is just as much a cultural phrase as a religious one. In fact some one yelling that out could be a Christian, Muslim, Jew or Pagan. In Palestine amongst their terrorists, outside of Pagans you can find the big three fighting for nationalist ideology. Which isn't to say there are not plenty of religious terrorists in Palestine but a good deal are just nationalists.