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This came up in a recent game I had. The Dark Eldar player had a relic on his warlord, The Nightmare Doll, which states "The bearer of the Nightmare Doll adds 1 to any FNP rolls he makes." He also ran a Cronos pain engine, which has a spirit probe that states "The model, and all friendly units with both the Dark Eldar faction and FNP special rule within 6" of one or more models with a spirit probe, receive a +1 bonus to their FNP roll. This is cumulative with any other modifiers to FNP, but cannot improve their FNP beyond 4+"

He believes that because the nightmare doll adds 1 to the roll instead of receiving a +1 bonus (like the Cronos is worded), he gets around the 'cannot improve FNP beyond 4+' restriction and therefore has 3+ FNP on the Haemonculus. Is this correct?

It's dubiously worded, and most likely a codex typo, in most cases players would treat it as +1 to any FNP roll, rather than adding 1 to the result of the roll. Very few, if any, things in the game modify the number on the dice roll: if is a 2, its a 2, not a 3. Exceptions notably being vehicle damage, but you're modifying the value on the table, not the die.

Doubly, the Cronos would not be able to *effectively* improve the FNP to 3+, which no matter how the other gear is worded, the Cronos could not throw in to get him a 3+ result. As soon as he argues for instance "I have a 3+ FNP" then the argument is moot. IMO. He should play with a 4+ FNP and save the points, or treat it for what it is: redundancy when his pain engine is blown to smithereens.

I see this a lot in DE tactic threads and never really thought about it, but most players seem to think it is a 3+ FNP.
But since you quoted both rules and BOTH of them modify the roll, then clearly the Cronos caps the overall FNP at 4+.

Now that wouldn't stop the Haemi from getting 3+ FNP from other sources, but none come to mind for this to happen. The Heami would need the Nightmare doll and some other boost to get the 3+ FNP as the Cronos bonus "stops applying" once you reach/exceed 4+ FNP

Essentially the Nightmare doll stops the first ID wound and then stops working. That seems to be its purpose. The +1 FNP only works when NOT in range of a Cronos.

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As in the rubric 2++ topic; the FAQ states that a bonus with a Cap is a Hard Cap no matter where other bonuses come from.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
As in the rubric 2++ topic; the FAQ states that a bonus with a Cap is a Hard Cap no matter where other bonuses come from.

Can you tell me where this hard cap FAQ is? I just skimmed through the rulebook FAQ and didn't find it. Thanks.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
As in the rubric 2++ topic; the FAQ states that a bonus with a Cap is a Hard Cap no matter where other bonuses come from.

Can you tell me where this hard cap FAQ is? I just skimmed through the rulebook FAQ and didn't find it. Thanks.

From the Errata in the Main Rulebook FAQ:

Page 164 – Feel No Pain
Add the following sentence to the end of the final paragraph:
‘A model’s Feel No Pain roll can never be improved beyond 2+.’

The use of the word 'never' makes it a hard cap.

I think he is referring to the FAQ that addressed hard caps of certain values interacting with other rules that boost said value.
Not the FNP errata, which wouldn't even apply in this situation since at best the Haemi can get a 3+FnP with the rules we are discussing.

I would be interested to see this FAQ as well since it applies to this thread and the 2++ Tsons thread.

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If there is a faq that addresses hard caps specifically I don't think it's in the most recent rulebook faq, I just went through it and didn't find anything on hard caps. As to the 2+ feel no pain limit, that doesn't apply here as the FNP roll isn't being improved beyond that and the word 'never' is not present in the spirit probe entry so if that's the keyword I'm looking for it isn't there

Yeah, I just went through the FAQ as well and didn't find any reference to hard caps or modifier limitations that prevent other modifiers from applying.

So unless this FAQ can be found, it doesn't exist and all the "hard cap" discussion is irrelevant.
In the case of the Cronos, the rule itself is preventing its bonus from applying and thus does not stack with the Nightmare doll, but does not prevent the model from achieving a better FNP through other means, like say being wounded by a Warpfalme weapon and passing their toughness test

The closest thing I could find was from the Necron DraFtAQ:

Q: When fielding a Decurion Detachment (giving models within it with Reanimation Protocols a +1 bonus to their Reanimation Protocols rolls), how do further modifiers to Reanimation Protocols (for having a Cryptek in the unit, for example) interact with the -1 modifier from the Instant Death special rule?
A: The end result can never be improved beyond a 4+ after all modifiers (both positive and negative) have been applied. In this situation, the required Reanimation Protocols roll would therefore be 4+ after the three relevant modifiers (two +1 modifiers and one -1 modifier) had been applied.

Where it specifically says that you factor in all modifiers, and then apply the cap.

Ah good. Thanks for finding that.






Too bad it only applies to Necron Reanimation Protocol
Although it is clear that Haemi only gets a 4+FNP since it gets no further bonuses, unlilke the MoT debate
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 Kommissar Kel wrote:
As in the rubric 2++ topic; the FAQ states that a bonus with a Cap is a Hard Cap no matter where other bonuses come from.

Its a hard cap to the specific rule not what the rule is doing. rubrics can get a 2++ but in doing so they can´t have used the MoT rule. If the heamonculus got hit by the tzeentch power flicker fire that make you make a toughness test and buffs you +1 FnP if you pass.

There is a section in the rulebook which separates out getting +1 to a test and treating a roll as being one higher as different things.

So a roll of 3 being treated as one higher is a 4, which satisfies the max of 4+ on a roll. As FnP 4+ doesn't mean you have to roll a four but the final result has to be four or higher, being limited to not being able to have a final result of four or higher is not the same as saying a 3 counted as one higher is not four. It is four, and passes FnP.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/623556.page

Getting a bonus to the roll and a bonus to the needed result are no the same, as spelled out in p.11 of the BRB

blaktoof wrote:
There is a section in the rulebook which separates out getting +1 to a test and treating a roll as being one higher as different things.

So a roll of 3 being treated as one higher is a 4, which satisfies the max of 4+ on a roll. As FnP 4+ doesn't mean you have to roll a four but the final result has to be four or higher, being limited to not being able to have a final result of four or higher is not the same as saying a 3 counted as one higher is not four. It is four, and passes FnP.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/623556.page

Getting a bonus to the roll and a bonus to the needed result are no the same, as spelled out in p.11 of the BRB

This would give necrons an even better RP since most of their bonuses to RP is dice roll and not to the save

blaktoof wrote:
There is a section in the rulebook which separates out getting +1 to a test and treating a roll as being one higher as different things.

So a roll of 3 being treated as one higher is a 4, which satisfies the max of 4+ on a roll. As FnP 4+ doesn't mean you have to roll a four but the final result has to be four or higher, being limited to not being able to have a final result of four or higher is not the same as saying a 3 counted as one higher is not four. It is four, and passes FnP.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/623556.page

Getting a bonus to the roll and a bonus to the needed result are no the same, as spelled out in p.11 of the BRB

Except that under 'Modifying Dice Rolls' in the rulebook, it explicitly states:

"Sometimes, you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice (or 'the roll'). This is noted as D6 plus or minus a number, such as D6+1. Roll the dice and add or subtract the number given to or from the roll to get the final result."

It's important to not here that the rulebook does not say 'this MAY be noted as D6 plus or minus a number', it just says 'this is noted as...' which is pretty explicit.

Nightmare Doll is not worded in that way. If it said 'the bearer's Feel No Pain rolls are D6+1', it would in fact be a dice modifier and that would in fact be turning the final die result from 3 to 4 in order to get around the spirit probe restriction of not improving FNP beyond 4+. If it's not worded as a dice modifier, it can only be a FNP modifier, and so you would not be able to use it in conjunction with the spirit probe for a 3+ FNP roll.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
There is a section in the rulebook which separates out getting +1 to a test and treating a roll as being one higher as different things.

So a roll of 3 being treated as one higher is a 4, which satisfies the max of 4+ on a roll. As FnP 4+ doesn't mean you have to roll a four but the final result has to be four or higher, being limited to not being able to have a final result of four or higher is not the same as saying a 3 counted as one higher is not four. It is four, and passes FnP.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/623556.page

Getting a bonus to the roll and a bonus to the needed result are no the same, as spelled out in p.11 of the BRB

Except that under 'Modifying Dice Rolls' in the rulebook, it explicitly states:

"Sometimes, you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice (or 'the roll'). This is noted as D6 plus or minus a number, such as D6+1. Roll the dice and add or subtract the number given to or from the roll to get the final result."

It's important to not here that the rulebook does not say 'this MAY be noted as D6 plus or minus a number', it just says 'this is noted as...' which is pretty explicit.

Nightmare Doll is not worded in that way. If it said 'the bearer's Feel No Pain rolls are D6+1', it would in fact be a dice modifier and that would in fact be turning the final die result from 3 to 4 in order to get around the spirit probe restriction of not improving FNP beyond 4+. If it's not worded as a dice modifier, it can only be a FNP modifier, and so you would not be able to use it in conjunction with the spirit probe for a 3+ FNP roll.

You will not be able to quote where it says nightmare doll improves FnP by one, because it explicitly states it modifies the roll for FnP and not the FnP value unlike the chronoscope ruling.

So actually it does note it modifies the roll explicitly.

Except that, in that VERY same section of the rulebook, it states:

"Sometimes, you may have to modify the number rolled on the dice (or 'the roll')"

Right there, that explicit use of the word 'roll', implies that D6 modifiers and roll modifiers are the same damn thing. Therefore Nightmare Doll's wording is still governed by the rules set out under that section, 'Modifying Dice Rolls' on p. 11. If Nightmare Doll is not worded as a dice modifier, and we know that it isn't because that section explicitly declares they are worded as DX+X, then you can only conclude it is a FNP modifier because the alternative is that it does nothing, which is obviously preposterous.

So once again, no, Nightmare Doll will not allow you to take FNP on D6 results of 3.

You should reread that section, then consider quoting it accurately.

If you modify a roll of d6 by +2 the result is 3-8. This is an example used in the very section you are misquoting.

That is the result of the roll.

If you modify a roll of d6 by +1 the result of the roll is 2-7.

If a model has FnP 5+, and gets FnP modifies to 4+, and can roll a 2-7 the roll of 3(+1) is 4 for the roll result as pointed out in the section you keep misquoting, and it has passed the 4+ FnP test.

The modification to the special rule, and the modification to the roll for something are not always the same. You are creating a false statement f modifying the roll of a dice modifies the value of a special rule. They are not the same.

No one is saying the model has 3+ FnP on d6, the model has a 4+ FnP on d6+1.

You're actually the one who isn't reading that section clearly enough. It says dice modifiers are noted as DX+X. Not sometimes noted that way, not occasionally noted that way, it says "this is noted as D6 plus or minus a number, such as D6+1."

Nightmare doll does not say D6+1. If it isn't worded as a dice modifier then you aren't modifying the die roll to get around the spirit probe restriction.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
You're actually the one who isn't reading that section clearly enough. It says dice modifiers are noted as DX+X. Not sometimes noted that way, not occasionally noted that way, it says "this is noted as D6 plus or minus a number, such as D6+1."

Nightmare doll does not say D6+1. If it isn't worded as a dice modifier then you aren't modifying the die roll to get around the spirit probe restriction.

Just as devils advocate can you please provide an instance where any rule is written as D6 + X anywhere. I can´t think of a single time when this occurs but I don´t have every codex.

Yeah certainly. It's written that way in all the eternal war missions in the rulebook for the ones that have a variable number of objectives.

Ha. Good point didn´t think of them.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
You're actually the one who isn't reading that section clearly enough. It says dice modifiers are noted as DX+X. Not sometimes noted that way, not occasionally noted that way, it says "this is noted as D6 plus or minus a number, such as D6+1."

Nightmare doll does not say D6+1. If it isn't worded as a dice modifier then you aren't modifying the die roll to get around the spirit probe restriction.

.

"Such as d6+1" is stating an example of how it can be worded. Conflating such as to be the word always, or only, is not the same as what is written in the brb for a variety of reasons:

Reason 1: Under the section for ICs joining units it states an IC joined to an unit only gains the special rules of that unit if the special rule specifies it affects the IC as well as the unit and lists " such as stubborn". If we apply your line of thought that such as means always or only, if it did the only special rule that would confer would be stubborn using your line of reasoning because it specifies " such as stubborn".

2:. The rule for nightmare doll clearly says " adds one to FnP rolls". Telling us firstly it's adding, which is in all definitions of English the same as plus which is used in what you are quoting, and states the roll. Spirit probe on the other hand states it's a bonus to feel no pain, as in the rule, then further specifies it is the rule as it improves the FnP rule from 5+ to 4+.

The nightmare doll is clearly noted as a roll plus one. Which is the English written form of d6+1.

As I understand it the Haemonculus doesn't actually have a 3+ FnP save.

Technically he still has a 4+, he just passes it on a 3.

I don't see anything wrong with that. But maybe GW will have to FAQ it.

D6+1 is an example of D6 plus or minus a number just as stubborn is an example of a USR, so your comparison doesn't help you at all here. Again the rulebook is pretty explicit on the wording.

"This is noted as D6 plus or minus a number." Not sometimes noted this way, not occasionally noted that way, just straight up "this is noted as..."

Everything written after 'reason 2' has zero bearing on this discussion. If nightmare doll's unusual wording is being used to justify getting around the spirit probe restriction, then it's unusual wording must also be strictly compared to the relevant section of the rulebook. You can't have it both ways

Of course, this could be a case of advanced rules (codex saying "add one to FNP rolls") overriding basic rules

 doctortom wrote:
Of course, this could be a case of advanced rules (codex saying "add one to FNP rolls") overriding basic rules

Situations like that are when you get around restrictions imposed on you by the rulebook, like for example if something in your codex gave you an AP value on a Hammer of Wrath attack, or if something in your codex allowed you to run and shoot in the same turn, that's when you can definitively say codex trumps rulebook because you're getting explicit permission to do something the rulebook says you can't. That isn't the case here. Nightmare Doll is not giving you permission to do something the rulebook says you can't, it's just an ambiguously worded relic that doesn't follow the required wording to be a dice modifier and so is obviously a FNP modifier, which you can't stack with spirit probe to go beyond 4+

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
D6+1 is an example of D6 plus or minus a number just as stubborn is an example of a USR, so your comparison doesn't help you at all here. Again the rulebook is pretty explicit on the wording.

"This is noted as D6 plus or minus a number." Not sometimes noted this way, not occasionally noted that way, just straight up "this is noted as..."

Everything written after 'reason 2' has zero bearing on this discussion. If nightmare doll's unusual wording is being used to justify getting around the spirit probe restriction, then it's unusual wording must also be strictly compared to the relevant section of the rulebook. You can't have it both ways

So your saying.

adds 1 to any Feel No Pain rolls he makes

Does not have a player roll a dice and add one to it.

Surely rolling a dice and adding one is rolling a d6+1, unless you can explain how a d6+1 can result in 1 your whole premise has no merit within the rules for the section you are quoting.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If it worked the way you think it did it would be worded as a dice modifier pursuant to the relevant section 'Modifying Dice Rolls' on p. 11. It's a simple process of elimination. Since it isn't worded that way, you're left with only one conclusion: that it's a FNP modifier just like spirit probe and so cannot be used in conjunction with it to improve your die roll beyond 4+.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. If it worked the way you think it did it would be worded as a dice modifier pursuant to the relevant section 'Modifying Dice Rolls' on p. 11. It's a simple process of elimination. Since it isn't worded that way, you're left with only one conclusion: that it's a FNP modifier just like spirit probe and so cannot be used in conjunction with it to improve your die roll beyond 4+.

Then your entire stance has no rules support.

Rolling a dice and adding 1 to the roll is modifying the roll to determine the result, not the FnP rule.

Spirit probe modifies the FnP rule as it's rule clearly state.

Nightmare Doll modifies the roll as it's rules clearly state, further no where in it's rules does it state it modifies the FnP value.

The model has FnP 4+ and rolls d6+1, achieving a range of 2-7 for results for the FnP test. A roll of three is not the result, the result is 4 when you roll d6 and add one, passing FnP.

Your personal feelings about a single model from a specific formations impact on a game you played are not a basis for what is written in the rulebook.