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Basically, random powers have always bugged me in 40k to the point I try to minimize the amount of rolls I have to make for pre-game powers; I'll just settle for several otherwise-suboptimal Primaris Powers if need be just to avoid dealing with random rolls

My question is, other than Invisibility (which honestly isn't that bad if you're using ITC rulings for it), are there any random powers (Combat Drugs, Jokaero, Chaos Mutations, etc) that could stand to be reigned in? I imagine the big ones would be Telepathic Summons from Genestealer Cults (maybe up the cost by 1 WC to compensate for the ability being non-random), and Eldritch Storm.

Other than those, are there any real outliers if any and all random powers could be chosen at the start of the game?

Daemonic rewards. Imagine every FMC having 4+FNP and re-roll Invuls every single game. Curse Earth might also be a big one for Daemons

But otherwise, I agree. I usually just pick the Primaris powers for my Farseer and move on with my game.
This could be an easy fix too. Allow players to either roll as they do now, or pay a certain points cost to pick their powers. Maybe 25pts per power? Not too expensive for 1-2 picks, but could get pricey for a psychic heavy army.

You could even allow Psykers to pay & roll. For example, a ML3 Lord of Change could pay 25pts to pick Cursed Earth, yet roll his other 2 powers for free.

This would allow players to risk not getting what they need in favor of rolling or pay the costs and have everything set during the list building stage.

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Psychic shriek is already non-random and too cheap. Not exactly what you were asking, but it represents what abuses can happen with non-random powers under the current rules.

Most psychic powers would be pretty broken if you could simply choose with no other modifiers.
Endurance & Iron Arm.
Sacrifice, Cursed Earth & Incursion.
The D-weapon power for every single damn pink/blue/brimstone horror.
The new SM / CSM powers all have ~2 good and 4 trash spells in their disciplines. Eg reroll all saves, or the move terrain / teleport powers.

I like the idea of purchasing spells individually, but it gets too unwieldy once you go beyond one discipline.

Another simple thought:

A Psyker may select a single Psychic power of choice thst is normally allowed instead of rolling, as long as that power has a WC charge of 1.

I don't care about the random powers. I care more about the power disparity. I mean, would it really be too powerful to make the primaris for Pyromancy a Torrent? Or make Molten Beam once less Warp Charge?

Just fix those things and we are okay. However, Telekinesis needs a serious rework.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Another simple thought:

A Psyker may select a single Psychic power of choice thst is normally allowed instead of rolling, as long as that power has a WC charge of 1.

Perfect Timing, Cursed Earth, Sacrifice, Iron Arm, Sanctuary, Gate of Infinity, Electroshield, Renewer, Horrify, Unleash Rage, Dance of Shadows, Pavane, and Dominate and its Slaanesh equivalent all probably need a second look among WC1 powers.

Getting guaranteed Cursed Earth and Sacrifice on all Heralds makes daemon-factories trivial. Guaranteed access to Ld-debuff powers makes Dominate an incredibly reliable lockdown tool, and Pavane an incredibly reliable killing tool. And guaranteed access to Renewer makes Wraithknights that much stupider.

Trasvi wrote:
The D-weapon power for every single damn pink/blue/brimstone horror.

Yea, that is probably the worst possible case. 30 points for psychic brotherhood and a 24" ranged D? Oy.

 JimOnMars wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
The D-weapon power for every single damn pink/blue/brimstone horror.

Yea, that is probably the worst possible case. 30 points for psychic brotherhood and a 24" ranged D? Oy.

Oh, if we're listing off WC2+ powers that are problematic too the list gets a lot longer. You can almost give no f***s that your Warlocks are Perilsing on any doubles if they all know Cleansing Flame all the time.

(Vortex of Doom, Cleansing Flame, Misfortune, Endurance, Electrodisplacement, Magnetokinesis, Shifting Worldscape, Veil of Time, Warpmetal Armour, Machine Flense, Fortune, Prismatic Gaze, Final Decomposition, and Putrescent Vitality are all problem powers that are more than WC1. And I missed Phase Form and Levitate from the WC1 list. And I haven't gone through a bunch of the army-specific tables.)

Honestly, I just think there are too many powers to choose from and GW keeps adding more.
I like the idea that a Psyker can choose 1 power and roll the rest, but there ought to be limitations

Maybe each Psyker that is ML2 or higher can pay 25pts per WC to pick a single power?

That means that ML1 Psykers still have to roll randomly (preventing Horrors from just taking the 18" D shot power), and a ML3 Psyker still has to roll 2 of his powers.
Invisibility would also cost 50pts to buy, and that D-shot power would be 75pts to buy.

Also make it so that these powers are purchased as part of your army list and cannot be changed between games in a competitive setting. This of it as the Psyker has developed skill with that particular power and thus it wouldn't change just because he is facing a different enemy

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Besides Psychic Powers, there are certain combos that would also need to be looked at.

Like, one could run Thousand Sons Daemon Princes, give them the Ectomancy Power that gives them 3++, then watch them become 2++ due to Blessing of Tzeentch, especially since it could also be re-rolled due to Daemon of Tzeentch.

Then there's the "Exalted Reward" that gives you a free Lesser Reward for Daemons, as well as another Exalted Roll.

Either way, other than certain obscene combos becoming more prevalent, I feel that "fixing" power selection would make it easier to see what power combos are actually broken and work on reigning in such combos, rather than falling back to "oh, the powers rolled are random" as an excuse to not add proper internal balance.

But we have to ask ourselves, isn't allowing a handful of "obscene" combos worth the streamlining of not having so much pregame book keeping?

It would also change up the meta, making more random armies a good deal more reliable, while at the same time if every army could do it, no army is left behind (except maybe Tau & Necrons.

But to keep it balanced, I really feel that points must be paid to "pick" your powers/random bonuses.
Another option I have toyed around with is making any "6" roll on a random table allow the player to pick that power. But that doesn't solve the book-keeping issue

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I would have to say no, simply because you would get what's happened in AoS you always pick the same command ability and the same item becuase it's stupidly unbalanced.

I'd actually prefer changing out the D6 roll for a D66 table or something. I'd like more random rolls all around. I'd like it to be frustrating for power gamers.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I would have to say no, simply because you would get what's happened in AoS you always pick the same command ability and the same item becuase it's stupidly unbalanced.

If randomization is a "fix" for imbalance (it isn't), what stops the game from randomly allocating points you're allowed to build your army with? At this rate, you're not making decisions to min-max a list, or build a coherent army with a coherent plan, so much as hoping the dice gods screw you over less before the game starts.

Not to mention pre-game rolls just slow things down! For example, I can theoretically run 12 Heralds Anarchic at 1500 points, each with ML 3 and 3 lesser gifts. This is not a good army, but it's 72 pre-game rolls (fine, 73 when you count the Warlord trait), each which lets me take a minute to go "hrmmm, do I want an Etherblade" or "hrmmm, do I want to take a Primaris Power?" If I really wanted, I could deploy all but 1 in reserve and wait for my opponent to table me, that it's an hour of pre-genning powers and 5 minutes of actual game.

This stuff should be part of army creation, period.

Are there any other broken powers? A power like invisibility is broken because when you get it at the beginning of the game, you can make a unit invincible for the rest of the game. So for a power to be broken, one of the possible factors is being able to cast it every turn.

You also don't like rolling before the game because it causes the power levels to be extremely variable.

You have to take lots of time and discussion to decide which power is broken enough to be weakened or limited. You might not get them all and run into a combo you hadn't considered.

However you know that one of the reasons powers are broken is that once you get them the change the entire rest of the game. You also don't like rolling before the game. So you have to eliminate the rolling for and successful casting of Invisibility to dominate the whole game, and you have to remove random rolling at the beginning.

Just say that taking a discipline gives you access to the whole list of powers, but you can only cast each power once per game.

I think choosing your powers/WL trait during list building is a great idea, but I don't think any of us will agree on the best way to balance it.

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 Galef wrote:
But we have to ask ourselves, isn't allowing a handful of "obscene" combos worth the streamlining of not having so much pregame book keeping?

It would also change up the meta, making more random armies a good deal more reliable, while at the same time if every army could do it, no army is left behind (except maybe Tau & Necrons.

But to keep it balanced, I really feel that points must be paid to "pick" your powers/random bonuses.
Another option I have toyed around with is making any "6" roll on a random table allow the player to pick that power. But that doesn't solve the book-keeping issue

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All that needs to be done is up the WC on some of them, and drop it on a couple. GW literally only needs to change a few dozen numbers and the problem is permanently fixed.

How hard is to to type 30 numbers?

The problem with picking your powers is that, even with tweaking the WC cost, you're still going to end up with some powers that are vastly, vastly more useful than others, for only a small amount of difference in difficulty. (When I'm casting a power I really want, I'm always throwing a ton of extra dice into it if it's ML1 just to prevent DTW.)

Just off the top of my head, a superfriends deathstar becomes far, far more powerful when you're always getting 2+ Invulns, and re-rolls on saves. Three Librarians/Rune Priests could reliably have access to Invisibility, Endurance, the save-reroll power, Sanctuary, Warpmetal Armor, and the Pyromancy primaris. (Gotta have one useless power in there for fun.)

Waaaghpower wrote:
The problem with picking your powers is that, even with tweaking the WC cost, you're still going to end up with some powers that are vastly, vastly more useful than others, for only a small amount of difference in difficulty. (When I'm casting a power I really want, I'm always throwing a ton of extra dice into it if it's ML1 just to prevent DTW.)

Just off the top of my head, a superfriends deathstar becomes far, far more powerful when you're always getting 2+ Invulns, and re-rolls on saves. Three Librarians/Rune Priests could reliably have access to Invisibility, Endurance, the save-reroll power, Sanctuary, Warpmetal Armor, and the Pyromancy primaris. (Gotta have one useless power in there for fun.)

Yea, that makes sense.

OK, just add a limit to the dice you can use. WC3 can only take 7 dice, 2 5, etc. Problem solved.

Eh, I'm not as keen on that. I think a simpler fix is to add a rule that Invulnerable Saves may not be "modified" to better than 3++ by any means, be it Blessings, Warlord Traits, Blessing of Tzeentch, the Grimoire, etc. Any extra blessing points beyond a 3++ are just an "offset" to penalties (Death Hex, etc).

The only way to get a 2+ Invulnerable is to start with one to begin with, be it Ghaz on a Waaagh turn, a Shadow Field Archon, or the one turn you get with the Armor Indomitus.

I think this by itself would do so much to clean up potential abuse combos that would come about from selectable powers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've thought more about it, and here are my initial thoughts about what "non-random" 40k might end up looking like.

* (This is the big one): Invulnerable Saves that are not explicitly worded as 2+ Invulnerable may not be improved to better than 3+ Invulnerable by **any** means whatsoever, be it the Grimoire, Cursed Earth, Blessing of Tzeentch, Sanctuary, etc. (Even 3++ Rerollable can be overcome; there's an order of magnitude difference between failing 1 in 9 saves versus failing 1 in 36!)

* Modify Invisibility to use ITC rulings: Rather than "Snapshots when shooting, 6s to-hit in melee", make it "WS 1/BS 1 when making attacks against this target", so that blasts/templates still work against it.

* Remove Deathblows from the Destroyer Table; instead, all non-Dispersed Destroyer Weapons inflict a -2 penalty to Invulnerable Saves.

Those are the "big tweaks" that I feel would remove a LOT of the actual hate for non-random powers. Other notable that would round things off, include:

* You may select your Warlord Trait. Enjoy.

* If you have the option to roll for an additional Warlord Trait, you may select an additional Warlord Trait instead. If that option only lets you roll for an additional Warlord Trait for a specific table (or set of tables), that additional Warlord Trait must be selected from that table or set of tables.

* If you have the option to re-roll your Warlord Trait (due to a Detachment, or otherwise), you may select a second Warlord Trait. If that option only lets you re-roll for a specific table (or set of tables), that additional Warlord Trait must be selected from that table or set of tables.

* Multiple non-repeated options are cumulative. For example, Creed in a CAD could roll for 3 Warlord Traits due to generating 2 Warlord Traits normally, and the CAD granting a re-roll. However, a Demi-Company Warlord in an Angel's Blade Strike Force would only get 2 Warlord Traits (as the "reroll" bonus is the same for both the formation and the parent detachment).

* Optionally, Special Characters with fixed Warlord Traits (except for Zahndrekh; see below) can get a point break of 25 points or so. Fateweaver isn't as special when any old Herald lets you re-roll Warp Storm results

As for specific powers:

* For Conjuration powers, you must declare what exactly you wish to summon before you roll. For example, if you use Telepathic Summons, you must declare whether you wish to summon 10 Acolytes with 2 Grenade Launchers & 2 Seismic Cannons, 5 Acolytes with Hand Flamers, etc. Gives your opponent more information as to whether they want to try to Deny or not.

* Sacrifice is Warp Charge 2. You can cast it as Warp Charge 3 or 4, each additional WC letting you spend an extra 15 points on upgrades for the Herald.

* Models that are summoned via Telepathic Summons roll a D3 instead of a D6 on the Cult Ambush table. You can summon stuff, but you need to think more about how to actually get them into the fight! No playing "Summon to fish for 6s on Cult Ambush" shenanigans.

* Shifting Worldscape is Warp Charge 2, but only moves a terrainpiece 6". No DJ-roomba Ruins.

* Electrodisplacement only lets units assault, if both units being Electrodisplaced are allowed to assault at the start of the turn. No "Switching your Drop Pod Grey Hunters with a Wulfen" shenanigans.

* Models that gain Infiltrate as a result of Master of Deception may not use Infiltrate for Outflank.

* The Dark Angels Warlord Trait "Hold At All Costs" grants Fearless and Feel No Pain to the Warlord and all models from Codex: Dark Angels. Nay to Barkbarkstars

* Eldritch Storm is WC 2 for a small blast, WC 3 for a large blast, and WC 4 for a massive blast. Eldrad may cast it at WC 5 as an Apocalyptic Blast.

* Azrael costs the same as normal, but chooses a Warlord Trait from Codex: Dark Angels in addition to normal ones. His Lion's Helm is modified so that all friendly models within 9" of Azrael have a 4+ Invulnerable Save. The Lion Helm is modified to be an "aura" instead of affecting his unit, because of its traditional usage in the Barkbarkstar.

* Nemesor Zahndrekh's Adaptive Tactics are modified so that if he is your Warlord, he always has Eternal Madness, and a second Warlord Trait, no matter what you use for your primary detachment; that second Warlord Trait may be changed starting from the 2nd turn as per the normal rules for Adaptive Tactics. Zahndrekh is a tactical genius, but that doesn't mean he suddenly adapts to not be crazy.

* The Alpha Legion trait Many Heads of the Hydra stacks with "reroll warlord traits" effects. I'm sure you can have fun with this.

* Jokaero can stay random. That's literally written into their fluff!

* Dark Eldar Combat Drugs are chosen at the start of the turn.

* the first Exalted Reward is replaced with a new one, Mythic Legacy: the Daemon has a Greater Reward. Once per game, the Daemon may replace this Greater Reward with another Greater Reward.

What are your thoughts?

Inquisitors become crazy good if you can pick warlord traits. 25pt Orbital Bombardments? Yes, please. Going against Daemons? I'll take a half dozen -1 invuln bubbles, thanks.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Inquisitors become crazy good if you can pick warlord traits. 25pt Orbital Bombardments? Yes, please. Going against Daemons? I'll take a half dozen -1 invuln bubbles, thanks.

Touche. That could be a trouble point. I didn't expect the Inquisition.

Magic should simply be nerfed all around. If every table is akin to telekinesis or pyromancy, there'd be no real problems and rule abuses. Cause every other table seems to have 1-2 broken powers that everyone's fishing for.

Also, the ability to pick any power you want is also unbalanced because you can have reliable tools vs anything you face. If you want set powers, go back to 5-th ed stuff with paying points for a specific power when you build a list. And than try to balance the powers out to not have invisibility + soulswap combos in all your games.

5th was weird with Psykers. 4th had "pay for powers" (unless you were Orks that were always random), but 5th was "Pick 2 powers for your Psyker at army creation", assuming the powers weren't fixed. There were only two exceptions where models could buy powers: Grey Knight Librarians and Tervigons.

Well, and also 4th Edition codexes that weren't updated (CSMs, for example).