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So taking a look at the new Detachment for Imperials in the Fall of Cadia book - how do you rule the interaction between units of differing factions within the same detachment?
I mean they're not battlebrothers as that's an "inter-detachment thingy", so can they just join any transport and the faction is basically ignored?

Related: Has anybody else noticed that Drop Pods - of all things - are on the Fast Attack list there?

You should post this question on GW Facebook page. They will answer it. It is a good question.
RAW, I'd say they can't.

for we need to know what battlebrothers is, are they units from different factions, different detachments or unitsthat are both from different factions and detachments. Assuming ofcourse that the ally matrix say they are battlebrothers

GW really dropped the ball on denying battle brothers transports. The limitations of transports are about 30% of the questions on the board lately. It just seems they've unnecessarily complicated this.

nekooni wrote:
I mean they're not battlebrothers as that's an "inter-detachment thingy", so can they just join any transport and the faction is basically ignored?

The Allies Matrix is an "inter-unit within the same army" thing. Detachments have nothing to do with it:

"The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

Simply put you cannot have Battle Brothers begin the game embarked on each other's Transports just because they're in the same Detachment.

 MattKing wrote:
GW really dropped the ball on denying battle brothers transports. The limitations of transports are about 30% of the questions on the board lately. It just seems they've unnecessarily complicated this.

Especially with Imperial Agents, where (if I recall correctly) Inquisitorial Warbands are allowed to take as a designated transport vehicles from a different faction, without it saying the vehicle changes faction to match.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

nekooni wrote:
I mean they're not battlebrothers as that's an "inter-detachment thingy", so can they just join any transport and the faction is basically ignored?

The Allies Matrix is an "inter-unit within the same army" thing. Detachments have nothing to do with it:

"The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army."

Simply put you cannot have Battle Brothers begin the game embarked on each other's Transports just because they're in the same Detachment.

This is correct.

As to the 'Imperial Agents' thing, we've been over this. From the rulebook:
"Sometimes a unit’s Army List Entry will include a Transport option, allowing a
vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These Dedicated Transports do
not use up a slot on the Force Organisation Chart, but for all other rules
purposes count as having the same Battlefield Role and Faction (if any) as the
unit they were bought for."

IA units that have DT from other factions have the DT change to their faction.

TLDR: The Castellan's faction doesn't change anything about transports and sharing and neither did C:IA.

I seriously hope 8th will bring clear written rules (fool's hope, I know), because this BB thingy is one of the biggest messes in 7th.

Just a heads up guys the newest codex/supplement books are now stating you can take battlebrothers trasports; see fall of Cadia and Imperial Agents) This overrides previous statements*, though I am sure they will make another official one soon, to retract/update/claify their previous FAQ. As this is the second supplement/codex to say battlebrothers can once again use other factions transports (within their specified rules of course and allied matrix).

Though to my knowledge, you still cant take dedicated transports, for obvious reasons.

*My GW local store guy also says so, though he admits, you can't fault people for being confused as this is the second time they have changed their ruling.

Tsol, citation please? Because, as you see in my post those books say nothing of the kind.

 Tsol wrote:
Just a heads up guys the newest codex/supplement books are now stating you can take battlebrothers trasports; see fall of Cadia and Imperial Agents) This overrides previous statements*, though I am sure they will make another official one soon, to retract/update/claify their previous FAQ. As this is the second supplement/codex to say battlebrothers can once again use other factions transports (within their specified rules of course and allied matrix).

Though to my knowledge, you still cant take dedicated transports, for obvious reasons.

*My GW local store guy also says so, though he admits, you can't fault people for being confused as this is the second time they have changed their ruling.

I agree with pretre on needing a rules quote for this from the books you're mentioning. I see that some units are allowed to take dedicated transports listed in different factions, but according to pretre's quote from the main rulebook, these would just become the faction of the unit that took them as a dedicated transport. That doesn't mean though that, say, an Inquisitorial Warband with a Valkyrie or GK Land Raider as a dedicated transport could have a vanilla SM chapter master deploy with the unit in it as he's still faction Space Marines while it's not.

It also matters whether it's a detachment or formation. The formations all show a symbol at the top of what faction they are a formation for - the Inquisitorial Warband one (where you can take units from other Imperial factions) indicates that the formation is an Inquisitorial faction, so that could be taken to mean that all the units taken in the formation count as that Inquisitorial faction. This would mean that any of the separate units (Deathwatch, Sisters, etc) that could be brought into the formation by the proper Inquisitor would also count as the same faction. They don't have the same type of iconography assigning a faction to the detachments in the book, so it's not clear how it's handled unless there's a direct quote in the codex saying it's okay.

Sorry guys, I don't have either books, I flipped through them with the GW store copy as I was pondering buying it. I almost did, but they were sold out. I asked my GW guy why anyone would bother taking the AM transport flyer. He then informed me that book replaces/superseeds the detachment rules/army rules. As you slot this unit/formation into one of your detachments. He then clarified saying, you cannot emabark on allies transports/dedicated trasnports (as per faq; such as cannot start deployed in and whatnot). However, Inquistor agents supplement allows you to do so, by sliding this into your detachment with rules present, as this new book trumps prior (as he told me all new books take precidence, as per BRB states)

He then showed me the store copy of Fall of Cadia and pulled up the Casteelion doodle and said, due to this being all one detachment, you can use and start in all these doodles, so long as if follows the detachment rules. I then specifically asked, so I can put my guardmen in a rhino or a landraider? And he replied yes, so long as they are both part of this particular detachment or following the new IA rule set.

As soon as I get the books (I bought both, but they are being shipped as he sold out) I can put up the detachment/datasheets for you guys.

Your GW guy is mistaken. Battle Brothers, regardless of whether they are in the same or different detachments, cannot begin the game embarked upon each other's Transport vehicles.

You would think above all other units that inquisitors, the guys who can literally requisition vehicles from other imperial forces, would be able to start onboard a vehicle.

Games-Workshop employees are subject to the same mistakes and misunderstandings that everyone else is. They unfortunately do not always understand the rules properly and take no part in the FAQ process.

As it stands you have factions and those define alliance levels.

Joining multiple factions under the same detachments does not change how the alliance levels play out.

Battlebrothers are specifically disallowed from embarking into each other's transports and this remains in place.

It seems like that level of adjustment to BB rules would be a part of a rules edition, like 8th edition, not published as a part of a 7th edition codex supplement, unless it was tied to specific formations.

For instance, any formation in this codex does not place restrictions on battle brothers deployment. That is more plausible.

That said there is nothing i've seen that explicitly changes this, so I'd say rules confusion is more drawn from wishful thinking than anything else.

I don't think too many people would complain if the wording was changed to this:

Q: Can units that are Battle Brothers embark in each other’s
Transport vehicles during deployment?

A: Yes, if the units are also in the same detachment. If the units are in different detachments, no.

It would stop the Skitarii drop pod taxi shenanigans, but allow the rather more tame "can my Inquisitor get a lift, please?" shenanigans.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Your GW guy is mistaken. Battle Brothers, regardless of whether they are in the same or different detachments, cannot begin the game embarked upon each other's Transport vehicles.

What if the detachment changes the Faction of the models inside it?

 Charistoph wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Your GW guy is mistaken. Battle Brothers, regardless of whether they are in the same or different detachments, cannot begin the game embarked upon each other's Transport vehicles.

What if the detachment changes the Faction of the models inside it?

I don't think they've stated that for a detachment yet (I imagine this thread wouldn't have been needed if they have). Formations, however, indicate a faction for the formation, and we have the Inquisitorial Warband as an example of a formation where units from different factions are brought into the formation. By them indicating that the formation is an Inquisitorial Faction, it could be argued that all the units in it change to that faction.

I suspect that GW is probably treating all the models in a detachment as the same faction whether or not they actually are.

 doctortom wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Your GW guy is mistaken. Battle Brothers, regardless of whether they are in the same or different detachments, cannot begin the game embarked upon each other's Transport vehicles.

What if the detachment changes the Faction of the models inside it?

I don't think they've stated that for a detachment yet (I imagine this thread wouldn't have been needed if they have). Formations, however, indicate a faction for the formation, and we have the Inquisitorial Warband as an example of a formation where units from different factions are brought into the formation. By them indicating that the formation is an Inquisitorial Faction, it could be argued that all the units in it change to that faction.

I suspect that GW is probably treating all the models in a detachment as the same faction whether or not they actually are.

It was the Formation concept I was sideways presenting. There is nothing stated solid on that, just presumed based on legend language, but there isn't anything really denying it, either. The question for doing it would be similar to Dedicated Transports, does getting the Formation's Faction override/eliminate the unit's original Faction?

Yes, my GW guy could be mistaken, but he has shown me the book and explained the detachments can use transports in these books. Which frankly I believe him. Which also makes sense, due to well, you know, the detachments giving you transports.

Once I get the two books, I can make a more solid argument or at least show you detachments which allow for transports. Other than my GW guys says so, and the pages he showed me also said so.

(Hopefully by this weekend!!)

The detachments don't change an HQ's faction, and battlebrothers are decided by faction.

RAW you cannot.

They could publish an errata or FAQ changing this, but there's no rule right now to support deviating from what is already fairly clearly spelled out in the rules.

The exception is taking a separate faction in your detachment. That's it. No other exception has been explicitly granted.

 Charistoph wrote:
It was the Formation concept I was sideways presenting. There is nothing stated solid on that, just presumed based on legend language, but there isn't anything really denying it, either. The question for doing it would be similar to Dedicated Transports, does getting the Formation's Faction override/eliminate the unit's original Faction?

If there were something concrete then absolutely. Sadly there is not, and I think if we were told they simply count as both Factions that still would not definitively resolve this.

 Tsol wrote:
Yes, my GW guy could be mistaken, but he has shown me the book and explained the detachments can use transports in these books. Which frankly I believe him. Which also makes sense, due to well, you know, the detachments giving you transports.

Once I get the two books, I can make a more solid argument or at least show you detachments which allow for transports. Other than my GW guys says so, and the pages he showed me also said so.

(Hopefully by this weekend!!)

Your GW guy is, so far as the rules are concerned, without doubt, mistaken. The basic rules subject to the FAQ are 100% clear that Battle Brothers may not begin the game embarked upon each other's Transport vehicles.

Nowhere in the Allies rules does it make any reference whatsoever to detachments or formations. They concern themselves only with interaction between units. Accordingly without something telling us they are either all counted as part of the same Faction, or that they may as a special rule begin the game embarked upon each other's Transport vehicles, they cannot.

Mr Shine is correct, however today's FAQ does allow Imperial Agents Codex Valkyries to transport other units...

Codex: Imperial Agents
ERRATA
Page 46 – Faction and Allies
Add the following to the end of the first paragraph:
‘Transports from this Faction can transport Astra
Militarum, Militarum Tempestus and Inquisition units
as if they were all of the same Faction.’

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
It was the Formation concept I was sideways presenting. There is nothing stated solid on that, just presumed based on legend language, but there isn't anything really denying it, either. The question for doing it would be similar to Dedicated Transports, does getting the Formation's Faction override/eliminate the unit's original Faction?

If there were something concrete then absolutely. Sadly there is not, and I think if we were told they simply count as both Factions that still would not definitively resolve this.

The concrete fact is that the Faction listed at the top of datasheets list the unit's faction. This is not changed for Formations.

The only thing that is not concrete is when a unit is presented with a new Faction during list building, such as for Dedicated Transports, does it remove the Faction previously listed?

From that perspective, do Rhinos taken as Dedicated Transports for Tactical Squads still get processed as Fast Attack for The Scouring as well as being Troops for a CAD's Command Benefit?

For those who may be thinking of Bikes for Bike Captains, that is something else as the Mounted Assault rule specifically mentions the Role being changed.

 Charistoph wrote:
The only thing that is not concrete is when a unit is presented with a new Faction during list building, such as for Dedicated Transports, does it remove the Faction previously listed?

From that perspective, do Rhinos taken as Dedicated Transports for Tactical Squads still get processed as Fast Attack for The Scouring as well as being Troops for a CAD's Command Benefit?

For those who may be thinking of Bikes for Bike Captains, that is something else as the Mounted Assault rule specifically mentions the Role being changed.

Dedicated transports count as having the same battlefield role and faction as the unit they were bought for. From the 'Dedicated Transports' blurb under 'Force Organisation Charts and Slots' in 'Choosing Your Army':

"These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the Force Organisation Chart, but for all other rules purposes count as having the same Battlefield Role and Faction (if any) as the unit they were bought for."

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Dedicated transports count as having the same battlefield role and faction as the unit they were bought for. From the 'Dedicated Transports' blurb under 'Force Organisation Charts and Slots' in 'Choosing Your Army':

"These Dedicated Transports do not use up a slot on the Force Organisation Chart, but for all other rules purposes count as having the same Battlefield Role and Faction (if any) as the unit they were bought for."

Exactly. So do they LOSE/have replaced/instead their old Faction and Role when made a Dedicated Transport? If so, where does it state that?

 Charistoph wrote:
Exactly. So do they LOSE/have replaced/instead their old Faction and Role when made a Dedicated Transport? If so, where does it state that?

You cannot count for all rules purposes as having the same Battlefield Role and/or Faction as one unit if you ALSO have a different Battlefield Role and/or Faction as that unit.

For example if I claimed I had the same eye colour as you, that would be incorrect if I turned out to have heterochromia and only one eye the same colour as yours, and the other a different colour.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
You cannot count for all rules purposes as having the same Battlefield Role and/or Faction as one unit if you ALSO have a different Battlefield Role and/or Faction as that unit.

Why not? The BRB FAQ seems to think you can. After all, a Grey Hunter Squad with a Codex Captain in it is Troops, HQ, Codex Marines, and Space Wolves for the purposes of many rules. So having multiple Factions and Roles represented in a single unit is apparently a game mechanic.

The point I am asking is, where does it state it gets rid of or replaces the old Faction/Role like it does for the Codex Bikes Mounted Assault rule?

 Mr. Shine wrote:
For example if I claimed I had the same eye colour as you, that would be incorrect if I turned out to have heterochromia and only one eye the same colour as yours, and the other a different colour.

If you have one eye blue, and one eye hazel, then you have the same eye colour as me in one eye. Your statement would be correct, albeit incomplete. Not to mention, this is a real-life application of a game concept which has no bearing on game rules which are far more abstract.

 Charistoph wrote:
Why not? The BRB FAQ seems to think you can. After all, a Grey Hunter Squad with a Codex Captain in it is Troops, HQ, Codex Marines, and Space Wolves for the purposes of many rules. So having multiple Factions and Roles represented in a single unit is apparently a game mechanic.

Only for specified rules which were never initially addressed, unlike this example where you are told it has the same Battlefield Role and Faction as the unit it is purchased for.

The point I am asking is, where does it state it gets rid of or replaces the old Faction/Role like it does for the Codex Bikes Mounted Assault rule?

It doesn't need to, because it tells you when taken as a Dedicated Transport its Faction and Battlefield Role are set.

If you have one eye blue, and one eye hazel, then you have the same eye colour as me in one eye. Your statement would be correct, albeit incomplete. Not to mention, this is a real-life application of a game concept which has no bearing on game rules which are far more abstract.

That's shifting the goalposts. The statement has no further qualifier and can be taken at face value. Taken at face value a statement claiming the same eye colour is abundantly clear and obvious in its meaning, much like at face value it's abundantly clear a Dedicated Transport is only the Battlefield Role and Faction of its purchased-for unit.