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Let's say you have a Command Squad. Normally, they can take a Standard of the Emperor Ascendant, which is a relic.
So... Let's say you attach Celestine or Cawl. Can you then give them a different relic? Say, the Memento-Mortispex?

Nope. The Standard of the Emperor Ascendant is a Relic, but it's not on a Relics equipment list, it's on a separate Standards equipment list. Celestine/Cawl allow models that could use a Relics list or equivalent use theirs instead.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Nope. The Standard of the Emperor Ascendant is a Relic, but it's not on a Relics equipment list, it's on a separate Standards equipment list. Celestine/Cawl allow models that could use a Relics list or equivalent use theirs instead.

That's not the wording on the rule, is it? It says "Models that can normally take a relic (or equivalent)". Nothing about taking it from a chart or a special list.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Nope. The Standard of the Emperor Ascendant is a Relic, but it's not on a Relics equipment list, it's on a separate Standards equipment list. Celestine/Cawl allow models that could use a Relics list or equivalent use theirs instead.

That's not the wording on the rule, is it? It says "Models that can normally take a relic (or equivalent)". Nothing about taking it from a chart or a special list.

The problem with that logic is that special characters' items are defined as their book's relic-equivalents (e.g. Eldrad's staff is a 'Remnant of Glory', the book's relics table is 'Remnants of Glory'). I don't have my copy of the book in front of me at this exact moment, but I'd rather stick with the interpretation that "Models that can normally take a relic (or equivalent)" was intended to mean "models that may use an arbitrary relic off of their faction's relics list" rather than "anyone who can have a unique item". I don't have my copy of the book in front of me at this exact moment so I can't tell you what the silliest abuse of that interpretation would be, will get back to you on that.

I will concede that the wording is ambiguous, but I wouldn't read it as loosely as you are.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Nope. The Standard of the Emperor Ascendant is a Relic, but it's not on a Relics equipment list, it's on a separate Standards equipment list. Celestine/Cawl allow models that could use a Relics list or equivalent use theirs instead.

That's not the wording on the rule, is it? It says "Models that can normally take a relic (or equivalent)". Nothing about taking it from a chart or a special list.

The problem with that logic is that special characters' items are defined as their book's relic-equivalents (e.g. Eldrad's staff is a 'Remnant of Glory', the book's relics table is 'Remnants of Glory'). I don't have my copy of the book in front of me at this exact moment, but I'd rather stick with the interpretation that "Models that can normally take a relic (or equivalent)" was intended to mean "models that may use an arbitrary relic off of their faction's relics list" rather than "anyone who can have a unique item". I don't have my copy of the book in front of me at this exact moment so I can't tell you what the silliest abuse of that interpretation would be, will get back to you on that.

I will concede that the wording is ambiguous, but I wouldn't read it as loosely as you are.

In those instances, the special characters can't get a relic anyways. Two reasons why:
One, they can't take a Relic, they just have one.
Two, they already have a relic, and you're not allowed to buy a relic if you already have one.

Waaaghpower wrote:
...In those instances, the special characters can't get a relic anyways. Two reasons why:
One, they can't take a Relic, they just have one.

Kor'sarro Khan's optional, purchaseable bike is a Relic. That he's allowed to buy on top of one he's already got. Calgar's relic armour is similarly a purchaseable upgrade.

Two, they already have a relic, and you're not allowed to buy a relic if you already have one.

I looked through the Craftworld and the Space Marine books, and found seven characters with two Relics and one with three.


This is another reason to stick with the "may purchase an arbitrary item from the Codex's relics table" interpretation, GW uses "Relic or equivalent" to mean a number of overlapping concepts subject to subtly different rules. Some Codexes' relic tables permit one Relic per army, some just restrict you to one per character; some have Relics available to HQ units only, some have Relic flags...Keep the narrow interpretation and the rule applies a) evenly across all Codexes and b) in a straightforward way without strange loopholes.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
...In those instances, the special characters can't get a relic anyways. Two reasons why:
One, they can't take a Relic, they just have one.

Kor'sarro Khan's optional, purchaseable bike is a Relic. That he's allowed to buy on top of one he's already got. Calgar's relic armour is similarly a purchaseable upgrade.

Two, they already have a relic, and you're not allowed to buy a relic if you already have one.

I looked through the Craftworld and the Space Marine books, and found seven characters with two Relics and one with three.


This is another reason to stick with the "may purchase an arbitrary item from the Codex's relics table" interpretation, GW uses "Relic or equivalent" to mean a number of overlapping concepts subject to subtly different rules. Some Codexes' relic tables permit one Relic per army, some just restrict you to one per character; some have Relics available to HQ units only, some have Relic flags...Keep the narrow interpretation and the rule applies a) evenly across all Codexes and b) in a straightforward way without strange loopholes.

That's fair, I suppose, but I still see a vast gulf of difference between a Special Character that normally doesn't have access to any options getting to buy a relic, and a character who is absolutely given the option to purchase a relic - and a lot of other gear - being able to buy other relics as well.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
...In those instances, the special characters can't get a relic anyways. Two reasons why:
One, they can't take a Relic, they just have one.

Kor'sarro Khan's optional, purchaseable bike is a Relic. That he's allowed to buy on top of one he's already got. Calgar's relic armour is similarly a purchaseable upgrade.

Two, they already have a relic, and you're not allowed to buy a relic if you already have one.

I looked through the Craftworld and the Space Marine books, and found seven characters with two Relics and one with three.


This is another reason to stick with the "may purchase an arbitrary item from the Codex's relics table" interpretation, GW uses "Relic or equivalent" to mean a number of overlapping concepts subject to subtly different rules. Some Codexes' relic tables permit one Relic per army, some just restrict you to one per character; some have Relics available to HQ units only, some have Relic flags...Keep the narrow interpretation and the rule applies a) evenly across all Codexes and b) in a straightforward way without strange loopholes.

That's fair, I suppose, but I still see a vast gulf of difference between a Special Character that normally doesn't have access to any options getting to buy a relic, and a character who is absolutely given the option to purchase a relic - and a lot of other gear - being able to buy other relics as well.

I think of it as "the character who is given the option to purchase a flag shouldn't get access to every other relic just because one of the flags is a relic".

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
...In those instances, the special characters can't get a relic anyways. Two reasons why:
One, they can't take a Relic, they just have one.

Kor'sarro Khan's optional, purchaseable bike is a Relic. That he's allowed to buy on top of one he's already got. Calgar's relic armour is similarly a purchaseable upgrade.

Two, they already have a relic, and you're not allowed to buy a relic if you already have one.

I looked through the Craftworld and the Space Marine books, and found seven characters with two Relics and one with three.


This is another reason to stick with the "may purchase an arbitrary item from the Codex's relics table" interpretation, GW uses "Relic or equivalent" to mean a number of overlapping concepts subject to subtly different rules. Some Codexes' relic tables permit one Relic per army, some just restrict you to one per character; some have Relics available to HQ units only, some have Relic flags...Keep the narrow interpretation and the rule applies a) evenly across all Codexes and b) in a straightforward way without strange loopholes.

That's fair, I suppose, but I still see a vast gulf of difference between a Special Character that normally doesn't have access to any options getting to buy a relic, and a character who is absolutely given the option to purchase a relic - and a lot of other gear - being able to buy other relics as well.

I think of it as "the character who is given the option to purchase a flag shouldn't get access to every other relic just because one of the flags is a relic".

This isn't the only instance of models only getting access to one Relic, though. The new version of Inquisitors only get one Relic each, so are you arguing that they can't take the new Relics either?

Waaaghpower wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
...In those instances, the special characters can't get a relic anyways. Two reasons why:
One, they can't take a Relic, they just have one.

Kor'sarro Khan's optional, purchaseable bike is a Relic. That he's allowed to buy on top of one he's already got. Calgar's relic armour is similarly a purchaseable upgrade.

Two, they already have a relic, and you're not allowed to buy a relic if you already have one.

I looked through the Craftworld and the Space Marine books, and found seven characters with two Relics and one with three.


This is another reason to stick with the "may purchase an arbitrary item from the Codex's relics table" interpretation, GW uses "Relic or equivalent" to mean a number of overlapping concepts subject to subtly different rules. Some Codexes' relic tables permit one Relic per army, some just restrict you to one per character; some have Relics available to HQ units only, some have Relic flags...Keep the narrow interpretation and the rule applies a) evenly across all Codexes and b) in a straightforward way without strange loopholes.

That's fair, I suppose, but I still see a vast gulf of difference between a Special Character that normally doesn't have access to any options getting to buy a relic, and a character who is absolutely given the option to purchase a relic - and a lot of other gear - being able to buy other relics as well.

I think of it as "the character who is given the option to purchase a flag shouldn't get access to every other relic just because one of the flags is a relic".

This isn't the only instance of models only getting access to one Relic, though. The new version of Inquisitors only get one Relic each, so are you arguing that they can't take the new Relics either?

Nope. I'm arguing that 'Relic' means different things in different places, and it takes a bit of judgement on our part to figure out which ones are which.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
...In those instances, the special characters can't get a relic anyways. Two reasons why:
One, they can't take a Relic, they just have one.

Kor'sarro Khan's optional, purchaseable bike is a Relic. That he's allowed to buy on top of one he's already got. Calgar's relic armour is similarly a purchaseable upgrade.

Two, they already have a relic, and you're not allowed to buy a relic if you already have one.

I looked through the Craftworld and the Space Marine books, and found seven characters with two Relics and one with three.


This is another reason to stick with the "may purchase an arbitrary item from the Codex's relics table" interpretation, GW uses "Relic or equivalent" to mean a number of overlapping concepts subject to subtly different rules. Some Codexes' relic tables permit one Relic per army, some just restrict you to one per character; some have Relics available to HQ units only, some have Relic flags...Keep the narrow interpretation and the rule applies a) evenly across all Codexes and b) in a straightforward way without strange loopholes.

That's fair, I suppose, but I still see a vast gulf of difference between a Special Character that normally doesn't have access to any options getting to buy a relic, and a character who is absolutely given the option to purchase a relic - and a lot of other gear - being able to buy other relics as well.

I think of it as "the character who is given the option to purchase a flag shouldn't get access to every other relic just because one of the flags is a relic".

This isn't the only instance of models only getting access to one Relic, though. The new version of Inquisitors only get one Relic each, so are you arguing that they can't take the new Relics either?

Nope. I'm arguing that 'Relic' means different things in different places, and it takes a bit of judgement on our part to figure out which ones are which.

I'd agree with you, but in this case, the banner is actually listed in the same chart of relics as the Burning Blade and the Shield Eternal - You can't really argue that it's something seperate from those when the codex specifically puts them together.

Waaaghpower wrote:
I'd agree with you, but in this case, the banner is actually listed in the same chart of relics as the Burning Blade and the Shield Eternal - You can't really argue that it's something seperate from those when the codex specifically puts them together.

And the Relics on special characters' profiles have the same names as the Relics on the list available to generic characters ('Remnants of Glory', etc.). The point is that GW hasn't yet grasped the concept of making the name of a unit, peice of equipment, or wargear option unique when they're treated differently within the rules, so I've picked an interpretation of what I thought they meant that treats every Codex the same instead of giving a few Space Marine models an extra toy only possible through reading the rules creatively.

(See http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html for a comedic explanation of the concept.)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I'd agree with you, but in this case, the banner is actually listed in the same chart of relics as the Burning Blade and the Shield Eternal - You can't really argue that it's something seperate from those when the codex specifically puts them together.

And the Relics on special characters' profiles have the same names as the Relics on the list available to generic characters ('Remnants of Glory', etc.). The point is that GW hasn't yet grasped the concept of making the name of a unit, peice of equipment, or wargear option unique when they're treated differently within the rules, so I've picked an interpretation of what I thought they meant that treats every Codex the same instead of giving a few Space Marine models an extra toy only possible through reading the rules creatively.

(See http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html for a comedic explanation of the concept.)

This isn't a case of "Same name, different usage" though. The Standard of the Emperor Ascendant is listed on the page with all the other Space Marine relics. It is very conspicuously and intentionally put in the same spot, in the same way, and having the same description as all the other Relics. It is nothing like those character-specific relics. (Heck, the Standard isn't even Command Squad specific, it can also be taken by Honour Guard.)

Do Tau Signature systems count? If so I may have another look at a Tau Deathstar.

 ChobitsCrazy wrote:
Do Tau Signature systems count? If so I may have another look at a Tau Deathstar.

That's a different debate, but I *think* the answer is yes. Definitely other relic charts are allowed, RAW, and Signature Systems (at least to my understanding) almost definitely fall under the umbrella of 'Relics (Or equivalent)'. I expect that it'll be FAQed out, but who knows.