Celestine and geminae Vs a Strength D blast?

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**Jackal**

Hi all, just wanted a quick bit of clarification really on this one.

With the release of the new models I was interested in running her and while talking to a friend about it, this came up.

Say a strength D blast hits all 3 of them.
How would this be worked out?

I was under the assumption that you roll as per normal, but any wounds she takes get pushed onto a geminae instead.

He is insistent that because it's a blast, it specifically hits her and can't be palmed off atall.

Can I get a bit of help here please?
Apparently the rule of hers doesn't override blasts so I need some way to prove this.

Many thanks.

**CrownAxe**

Nothing in the blasts prevent wounds from being alloacted to other models such as from LOS! or Celestine's special rule. They cause wounds like any other shooting attack, blasts just have a different way of determining hits

**jeffersonian000**

D hits are helded just like any other hit. However, instead of dealing 1 wound, they deal the amount on the D table with the coresponding rules. Which means if all three are hit, you start was the closest Geminae, then the other, and finally Celestine if there are any hits left. Which is to say, you just follow the rules as written.

SJ

**Oberron**

if celestine doesher D hit first the 1 wound(that will do multiple wounds from the d table) will move over to a geminae

**Massaen**

D Blast hits Celestine and both Geminae.

D Blast rolls (2,5,6)

Attacker declares that the (2-5) results are rolled for first.

Defender rolls ++ saves, removing Geminae on any failed result regardless of Celestine being closer tot he attacker.

Defender then resolves the 6 result in the same manner (no saves though of course).

**CrownAxe**

Massaen wrote:
D Blast hits Celestine and both Geminae.

D Blast rolls (2,5,6)

Attacker declares that the (2-5) results are rolled for first.

Defender rolls ++ saves, removing Geminae on any failed result regardless of Celestine being closer tot he attacker.

Defender then resolves the 6 result in the same manner (no saves though of course).

Not of StrD is done. You allocate the hit then roll the StrD result for that model

**Massaen**

No - you don't allocate the hit then roll the result. You only get to allocate wounds.

I wont get into that argument again except to say that my version of the rules follows the wound resolution process - you save against any of the automatic wounds from a wound pool generated after rolling the effects of D.

Hit, wound, save.

People get hung up on the description of D without looking at it to resolve it following the standard process.

**jeffersonian000**

Massaen wrote:
No - you don't allocate the hit then roll the result. You only get to allocate wounds.

I wont get into that argument again except to say that my version of the rules follows the wound resolution process - you save against any of the automatic wounds from a wound pool generated after rolling the effects of D.

Hit, wound, save.

People get hung up on the description of D without looking at it to resolve it following the standard process.

D table changes that to Hit, Save, Wound. The hits are generated and rolled on the table, saves are made versus the hits if allowed, then wounds are applied if any. Results on the table of 1 and 6 don't require a save after all, while results 2-5 might.

SJ

**Massaen**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
Massaen wrote:
No - you don't allocate the hit then roll the result. You only get to allocate wounds.

I wont get into that argument again except to say that my version of the rules follows the wound resolution process - you save against any of the automatic wounds from a wound pool generated after rolling the effects of D.

Hit, wound, save.

People get hung up on the description of D without looking at it to resolve it following the standard process.

D table changes that to Hit, Save, Wound. The hits are generated and rolled on the table, saves are made versus the hits if allowed, then wounds are applied if any. Results on the table of 1 and 6 don't require a save after all, while results 2-5 might.

SJ

Going to respectfully disagree - and then agree to disagree to avoid off topic. moving on

**gungo**

Massaen wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:
Massaen wrote:
No - you don't allocate the hit then roll the result. You only get to allocate wounds.

I wont get into that argument again except to say that my version of the rules follows the wound resolution process - you save against any of the automatic wounds from a wound pool generated after rolling the effects of D.

Hit, wound, save.

People get hung up on the description of D without looking at it to resolve it following the standard process.

D table changes that to Hit, Save, Wound. The hits are generated and rolled on the table, saves are made versus the hits if allowed, then wounds are applied if any. Results on the table of 1 and 6 don't require a save after all, while results 2-5 might.

SJ

Going to respectfully disagree - and then agree to disagree to avoid off topic. moving on

I'm in agreement with you nothing in the str d table dictates to change any order of operation nor is there any real need to. Furthermore if the order is somehow changed to hit save wound for str d than every hit on Celestine is a free 2+ save for her germinae for only str d hits which makes even less sense since they get their normal 3+ save vs other types of hits on Celestine that are intercepted.

**rawne2510**

The 6 roll on the table is placed in a separate allocation in the same way that rending wounds are from an assault cannon. The firer say which order you take the damage. So from the example above is entirely correct. assign the 2 hits (2, 5) first making them saves first finally take the 6 result and watch celestine lie down

**doctortom**

gungo wrote:
Massaen wrote:
jeffersonian000 wrote:
Massaen wrote:
No - you don't allocate the hit then roll the result. You only get to allocate wounds.

I wont get into that argument again except to say that my version of the rules follows the wound resolution process - you save against any of the automatic wounds from a wound pool generated after rolling the effects of D.

Hit, wound, save.

People get hung up on the description of D without looking at it to resolve it following the standard process.

D table changes that to Hit, Save, Wound. The hits are generated and rolled on the table, saves are made versus the hits if allowed, then wounds are applied if any. Results on the table of 1 and 6 don't require a save after all, while results 2-5 might.

SJ

Going to respectfully disagree - and then agree to disagree to avoid off topic. moving on

I'm in agreement with you nothing in the str d table dictates to change any order of operation nor is there any real need to. Furthermore if the order is somehow changed to hit save wound for str d than every hit on Celestine is a free 2+ save for her germinae for only str d hits which makes even less sense since they get their normal 3+ save vs other types of hits on Celestine that are intercepted.

Well, there is the comment in the Destroyer Weapon section "Cover saves and invulnerable saves can be taken against hits from a Destroyer weapon as normal, unless a Devastating Hit or Deathblow result is rolled." It does say save from hits, not save from wounds.

**Massaen**

Which is a descriptive - not a directive.

We only have a method of resolving wounds in the actual rules. You have no way of allocating hits at all.

**CrownAxe**

Massaen wrote:
Which is a descriptive - not a directive.

We only have a method of resolving wounds in the actual rules. You have no way of allocating hits at all.

Rolling the Destroyer table isn't a to wound roll either so you aren't following the standard shooting process either way

**jeffersonian000**

Try actually reading the Destroyer Weapon rules in the BRB. Not only is it pretty clear on the order of operations for applying damage for D Strength attacks, the table literally walks you through the process.

In the example provided above, yes, the two Geminae would take the hits and potentially die, leaving Celestine to get splatted by 6+d6 unsavable wounds.

SJ

**Massaen**

CrownAxe wrote:
Massaen wrote:
Which is a descriptive - not a directive.

We only have a method of resolving wounds in the actual rules. You have no way of allocating hits at all.
Rolling the Destroyer table isn't a to wound roll either so you aren't following the standard shooting process either way

Its not a to wound roll but it does generate wounds and wound pools. It generates a pool of 2-5 results which auto wound and inflict d3 wounds rather than 1 on a failed save and a second pool of 6 results which auto wounds and inflicts d6+6 wounds rather than 1 with no saves of any kind.

So the process which follows the pre-described core rules is

1. Roll to Hit
2. Roll to wound - replaced with roll on destroyer chart
3. Generate wound pools
4. Allocate wounds (by wound pools)
5. Make saves and remove models as applicable
6. repeat steps 4 & 5 with each wound pool until all pools are empty

You are literally just replacing the to wound roll with the destroyer roll. that's it

**doctortom**

Massaen wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:
Massaen wrote:
Which is a descriptive - not a directive.

We only have a method of resolving wounds in the actual rules. You have no way of allocating hits at all.
Rolling the Destroyer table isn't a to wound roll either so you aren't following the standard shooting process either way

Its not a to wound roll but it does generate wounds and wound pools. It generates a pool of 2-5 results which auto wound and inflict d3 wounds rather than 1 on a failed save and a second pool of 6 results which auto wounds and inflicts d6+6 wounds rather than 1 with no saves of any kind.

So the process which follows the pre-described core rules is

1. Roll to Hit
2. Roll to wound - replaced with roll on destroyer chart
3. Generate wound pools
4. Allocate wounds (by wound pools)
5. Make saves and remove models as applicable
6. repeat steps 4 & 5 with each wound pool until all pools are empty

You are literally just replacing the to wound roll with the destroyer roll. that's it

Respectfully disagree. We're told that you save against the hits, so really you would end up allocating the hits to start with , if you save against the hit you wipe out the wound(s) generated by the hit. So, the procedure would be:

1) Roll to hit
2) Allocate 1st hit
3) Make save
4)If save fails, roll on destroyer chart and apply wounds
5) repeat for each hit until all hits or all models in the unit are taken care of

**jeffersonian000**

doctortom wrote:
Massaen wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:
Massaen wrote:
Which is a descriptive - not a directive.

We only have a method of resolving wounds in the actual rules. You have no way of allocating hits at all.
Rolling the Destroyer table isn't a to wound roll either so you aren't following the standard shooting process either way

Its not a to wound roll but it does generate wounds and wound pools. It generates a pool of 2-5 results which auto wound and inflict d3 wounds rather than 1 on a failed save and a second pool of 6 results which auto wounds and inflicts d6+6 wounds rather than 1 with no saves of any kind.

So the process which follows the pre-described core rules is

1. Roll to Hit
2. Roll to wound - replaced with roll on destroyer chart
3. Generate wound pools
4. Allocate wounds (by wound pools)
5. Make saves and remove models as applicable
6. repeat steps 4 & 5 with each wound pool until all pools are empty

You are literally just replacing the to wound roll with the destroyer roll. that's it

Respectfully disagree. We're told that you save against the hits, so really you would end up allocating the hits to start with , if you save against the hit you wipe out the wound(s) generated by the hit. So, the procedure would be:

1) Roll to hit
2) Allocate 1st hit
3) Make save
4)If save fails, roll on destroyer chart and apply wounds
5) repeat for each hit until all hits or all models in the unit are taken care of

Not quite.

To resolve a Destroyer weapon’s attack, roll To Hit as you would for a standard attack. If the attack hits, roll on the table above instead of rolling To Wound or for armour penetration. <snip> Cover saves and invulnerable saves can be taken against hits from a Destroyer weapon as normal, unless a Devastating Hit or Deathblow result is rolled.

So Hit, Save, Wound.

SJ

**Lord Perversor**

Hm why are you saving a hit without being wounded? that's not how rules work.

1st hit
2nd check if hit wounds Str vs T or apply special rules like poison,fleshbane, sniper,Destroyer (destroyer tells you instead roll a Str vs T just roll on this table)
3rd this is when you should be either grouping wounds in types 2-5 result or 6 result or either you resolve 1 each time
4th apply saves when possible or remove models.

**Ghaz**

Lord Perversor wrote:
Hm why are you saving a hit without being wounded? that's not how rules work.

Destroyer weapons don't follow the normal rules.

**Audustum**

Wait, we seem to be overlooking important parts of this rule. In full:

If a weapon has a D instead of a Strength value in its profile, it is a Destroyer weapon. To resolve a Destroyer weapon’s attack, roll To Hit as you would for a standard attack. If the attack hits, roll on the table above instead of rolling To Wound or for armour penetration. Most Destroyer Weapons have AP1 or AP2, so armour saves are not typically allowed. Cover saves and invulnerable saves can be taken against hits from a Destroyer weapon as normal, unless a Devastating Hit or Deathblow result is rolled. For the purposes of determining if a Destroyer hit has the Instant Death special rule, assume it has Strength 10. Multiple Wounds/Hull Points inflicted by a Destroyer hit do not carry over to other models in the unit (any excess are lost).

So first, the rule itself says it's only replacing To Wound rolls, not anything else.

To resolve a Destroyer weapon’s attack, roll To Hit as you would for a standard attack. If the attack hits, roll on the table above instead of rolling To Wound

Moreover, it also prohibits you from attempting a save on a 6:

saves can be taken against hits from a Destroyer weapon as normal, unless a Devastating Hit or Deathblow result is rolled.

Looking at this, I'd say you HAVE to roll on the table first. You can't take a save from 6's so you don't even have permission to roll for the save and you don't know if you have permission till after the roll.

**doctortom**

I'd agree that you'd have to roll on the table first to determine what type of it it is so that you know whether you can save or, conversely, if a 1 is rolled on the table and that there's no need for a save. But, since it says roll saves for the hits and not wounds, you'd roll saves against the hit before rolling how many wounds the hit inflicts.

**Audustum**

doctortom wrote:
I'd agree that you'd have to roll on the table first to determine what type of it it is so that you know whether you can save or, conversely, if a 1 is rolled on the table and that there's no need for a save. But, since it says roll saves for the hits and not wounds, you'd roll saves against the hit before rolling how many wounds the hit inflicts.

Yeah, I think this has the right of it.

**Lord Perversor**

doctortom wrote:
I'd agree that you'd have to roll on the table first to determine what type of it it is so that you know whether you can save or, conversely, if a 1 is rolled on the table and that there's no need for a save. But, since it says roll saves for the hits and not wounds, you'd roll saves against the hit before rolling how many wounds the hit inflicts.

Absolutely right; that's when resolving Destroyer attacks i refer to 2 pools of wound.

Normal pool : saves allowed (mostly invul ones and cover saves since it's often fp2) all non saved hits will cause 1d3 wounds per model.

Deathblow pool : no saves allowed just remove the model unless it's something really really big with 7+ Hull Points or wounds.

**Jackal**

So essentially (if I'm getting this right)

D blast hits all 3.
Say we roll a 3, 4, 6 on the D table.

You would roll a save for the geminae first, if failed, D3 wounds.
You would then resolve the next one with the same results.

Now, because statistically one of the above saves would have been passed, there is still a geminae in the unit.
Am I right in thinking that the 6 result would now be applied to them as well? (Since Celestines rules prevent her being wounded)

Ending up essentially with an unwounded Celestine and 2 dead geminae.

**jeffersonian000**

Jackal wrote:
So essentially (if I'm getting this right)

D blast hits all 3.
Say we roll a 3, 4, 6 on the D table.

You would roll a save for the geminae first, if failed, D3 wounds.
You would then resolve the next one with the same results.

Now, because statistically one of the above saves would have been passed, there is still a geminae in the unit.
Am I right in thinking that the 6 result would now be applied to them as well? (Since Celestines rules prevent her being wounded)

Ending up essentially with an unwounded Celestine and 2 dead geminae.

Correct, if the scenario plays out with one of the Gemini successfully saving one of the hits.

SJ

**Azoqu**

I will just chip in with this, if Celestine is in front and fails a look out sir rolls which rolls a 6 the following happens: She will take d6+6 wounds which gets passed off, if 9 wounds are rolled then 4 of those wounds go to the Gemini and Celestine will take 5 to the face and die horribly. This is because (at least how I read it) wounds dealt to Celestine are passed off, not the hit, but eventually 4 wounds are passed off so she will take the remaining.

**Fhionnuisce**

Azoqu wrote:
I will just chip in with this, if Celestine is in front and fails a look out sir rolls which rolls a 6 the following happens: She will take d6+6 wounds which gets passed off, if 9 wounds are rolled then 4 of those wounds go to the Gemini and Celestine will take 5 to the face and die horribly. This is because (at least how I read it) wounds dealt to Celestine are passed off, not the hit, but eventually 4 wounds are passed off so she will take the remaining.

The Destroyer rules states that the d6+6 wounds are all dealt to a model, not allocated to within the unit as normal. On a single D weapon hit you can only have a single model die, any extra wounds from that hit are lost.

**Unusual Suspect**

Azoqu wrote:
I will just chip in with this, if Celestine is in front and fails a look out sir rolls which rolls a 6 the following happens: She will take d6+6 wounds which gets passed off, if 9 wounds are rolled then 4 of those wounds go to the Gemini and Celestine will take 5 to the face and die horribly. This is because (at least how I read it) wounds dealt to Celestine are passed off, not the hit, but eventually 4 wounds are passed off so she will take the remaining.

Beyond the correction made by Fhionnuisce, I believe the Geminae take Celestine's wounds automatically if they're still alive -there is no Look Out, Sir! roll.

**sm3g**

If you sorted out the wound pool (ie did all your d3/d6 rolling) before saving, then this part of the rule wouldnt apply:

Multiple Wounds/Hull Points inflicted by a Destroyer hit do not carry over to other
models in the unit (any excess are lost).

I believe Jackal got it correct in his response.