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Hey Everyone,

With Celestine, I'm planning on adding Vanguard Veterans to my army. Frame of reference, this is going to be part of a 1000 point army, maybe 1500.

There are some nice perks:

a) Celestine can join the unit
b) She is jump infantry type so she can deep strike with them
c) There is always the option to deploy them directly on the board, and just use their packs (and wings) to move 12"
d) With heroic intervention I can reroll charge distance, in addition to moving 12"
e) Initiative 7 + hit and run means... i'm always hitting and running. Amazeballs.

Celestine is a boss in melee. She's very strong versus vehicles, with armourbane, and with AP3 she's cleaving MEQs and weaker. She might face some AP2, so i wanted to balance out a squad that could help remove some of those units.

For kitting out the vanguards, i'm thinking of building them with:
5x Jump Pack
1xVanguard /w Lightning Claw
1xVanguard /w Lightning Claw
1xVanguard /w Power Axe
1xVanguard /w Power Axe
1xSergeant /w Power Fist

The idea is to give a few extra attacks at AP3, and the shred makes them fairly decent at inflicting a wound on AP2. The axes and pfist will be reduced to initiative 1 but are AP2, and celestine + her Superia should absorb wounds on their behalf as they'll be a delayed pile in at init1.

Basically, i want to enhance her infantry shredding slightly with the claws, and couple her with a few hard-hitting units for the scenario when she finds herself in combat with AP2. The power fist is there to help crush vehicles, or high toughness. Also, once per game I can give this unit furious charge blessing.

Things I considered:

1. Specializing the whole squad with power axes + pfist. Celestine does enough on her own against AP3. Ultimately, I did the math, and shred + assault doctrine will still be reliably inflicting 1 wound at initiative on 2+. I just don't see myself fighting squads of 2+ that are dangerous in melee enough to justify this limitation and removing the utility of extra hits.

2. Using power swords instead of lightning claws. This is mathematically unsound. You'd get extra attacks, but shred is such a huge bonus, it's better in terms of expected wounds per round, even if the ceiling of total potential wounds is lower.

3. Spending extra points to dual-wield specialist weapons. Meh. These guys are here to enhance what Celestine already does incredibly well. I don't think buying myself a couple extra attacks is worth the points. After all, I can fire bolt pistols during the shooting phase.

4. Swapping out the Power Fist for a Melta Bomb, and taking a different power weapon. It saves 5 points and i have the option to strike at strength 8 at initiative 1, instead of being required to. The only thing is, the power fist is a 2x multiplier and with furious charge, that's 2 strength10 hits (something will die!) for only 5 more points.

Ultimately the cost of this unit comes out to 145 points.
5 Veteran Vanguard = 95 points
5 Jump Packs = 15 points
4 Power Weapons = 20 points (so cheap!)
1 Power Fist = 15 points

What are your thoughts?

It's not a bad idea-but I don't think Celestine benefits from the charge reroll, so be aware of that.

Overall, in my limited experience with Celestine, she's pretty damn good even just on her own.

Hate to say it, but furious charge gives you a strength 9 power fist.
Multiplication is done first, before additional benefits.
So 4x2+1 = 9

She will help the unit to no end and is useful for tanking the AP2 shots, as with a ++ save and bodyguards that respawn there are no issues.

The speed is also perfect and the bonus she gives is great.
Don't forget her blessing to units as well, so take a look at those

 Jackal wrote:
Hate to say it, but furious charge gives you a strength 9 power fist.
Multiplication is done first, before additional benefits.
So 4x2+1 = 9

She will help the unit to no end and is useful for tanking the AP2 shots, as with a ++ save and bodyguards that respawn there are no issues.

The speed is also perfect and the bonus she gives is great.
Don't forget her blessing to units as well, so take a look at those

Haha whoops! Strength 9 power fist is still pretty handy because of the base 2 attacks. If it was 1 base attack i'd take the meltabomb.

My understanding of the veteran vanguard is that their buff targets the unit. So, a conjoined HQ would benefit. Or is there a precedent that it wouldn't? For instance, Hit and Run test is taken at the initiative of the highest model, which means joining Celestine to a squad means they all benefit from a guaranteed hit and run.

In any case, with a way to keep them alive, vanguard veterans are actually an insanely strong unit. Celestine + her Superia can provide cover from 3 different sides.

Characters provide buffs to units, not the other way around. So you'll get hit and run, but my interpretation is that she wouldn't benefit from heroic interventions

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Characters provide buffs to units, not the other way around. So you'll get hit and run, but my interpretation is that she wouldn't benefit from heroic interventions

After some thought this is probably correct.

Would slow and purposeful be applied to celestine if she joined a unit of centurion devastators? Not immediately applicable, but still interesting.

In the section for Heroic Intervention, is says a unit with this special rule re-rolls charges. Celestine joins, she is now part of the unit. Is there a section in the Independent Characters rules, or the FAQ that overrules this? I don't have my rule book handy. Because for instance, if a character joined a unit with Relentless, that character would get it too as Relentless always confers, at least how that's how I've been playing it.

Sad to say but the new SM FAQ would suggest no heroic intervention if anyone joins them (page 3, 2nd question on the left)

If a Spacemarine character takes the rule away from them I can't see why they'd make an exception for Celestine without making it explicit in her rules somewhere

Right, so RAW Celestine does not take the rule away since she is not a Space Marine Independent Character. The FAQ uses this language explicitly. Not only that, but nerfing the combo of taking a Captain (like Shrike for instance) and putting them with a squad of Vanguard Veterans making them all the sudden lose Heroic Intervention is absolutely STUPID. Yes I know, opinions and all that, but THIS WAS NEVER A PROBLEM. Literally you join Shrike to the squad he's supposed to be with, and all the sudden those vanguard vets lose their somewhat useful ability. Yet all the other bullcrap that they still allow in the game that makes no sense like 2+ re-rollable invuln saves and such.

If you were standing across the table from me, and tried to tell me that Celestine joining a unit of Vanguard Vets takes away Heroic Intervention, just because it says Space Marine Independent Characters do this in the FAQ, I would state that Celestine is not a Space Marine and then pack my stuff up.

RAW Celestine would get it.

Relentless doesn't confer to sqauds, it's specifically the model. Slow&Purposeful however does confer.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
RAW Celestine would get it.

Relentless doesn't confer to sqauds, it's specifically the model. Slow&Purposeful however does confer.

You're correct I was thinking of the wrong rule name.

Yes the FAQ states that IC do not get that benefit.

Even without the extra charge roll it's still a good combo. With Celestine they'll survive deep striking, or hopping up the field.

 Marmatag wrote:
Yes the FAQ states that IC do not get that benefit.

Even without the extra charge roll it's still a good combo. With Celestine they'll survive deep striking, or hopping up the field.

If you only mover her and the gemini 6 inches before the charge I think that would solve the problem.