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So here's what i think. A dodge save would be somebody's initiative cut in half and rounded up by 1. However this goes from initiative 1 and 2 being a 6+ save to initiative 5-6 being a 4+ save. Characters and some super fast units get even better saves. Most likely this will be a cover save. Perhaps also make it so that heavy armor 3+ and better prevents a dodge or perhaps if their armor save is equal to or better than their dodge save they don't get the ability to dodge.

I think this would make dark eldar more survivable and nids as well. The poor orks wouldn't get anything however. If there are armor save restrictions this would prevent eldar getting much in the way of dodge saves and silly little guardsmen and orks wouldn't get dodge saves either.

Would there by a way to counteract a dodge save like with AP? As it is it just sounds like a free invul save in CC and some units get way broken Bloodthirsters and Keepers of Secrets should have 2+ dodge saves

Sounds like you're given everyone with poor armour an invulberable save.
No.

2nd edition used to have a bunch of stuff that was Initiative based (as Necromunda does), but you'd really have to do a big rules rewrite to add them back.

For example, we used to have rolls for partial coverage by a template, but I never liked that it was just a straight 4+, so I used to house-rule it as an Initiative save to dive out of the way, but 40k no longer has partial hits anyway, which I can understand for speed I suppose.


One thing I considered house-ruling a while ago was, when going to ground, an Initiative test would determine whether the cover bonus was applied before or after the attack, i.e- if passed your guard/whatever get their heads down in time to avoid the worst of an incoming round of shooting, otherwise they take the hits then do it. Also considered making Overwatch an Initiative roll as well, but the armies it penalises the most really need the extra protection Overwatch can give.

So yeah, it's something that would need to be designed properly into the ruleset, I think bolting it on would be too hit and miss.


I do however think that there should be a Dodge universal rule to cover in-combat Invulnerable saves, as this would make it easier to define things that cannot be dodged for example.

Great! This should help out Orks, they really need that CC save.

Oh wait-they have poop for initiative. Who is this rule supposed to help?

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So here's what i think. A dodge save would be somebody's initiative cut in half and rounded up by 1. However this goes from initiative 1 and 2 being a 6+ save to initiative 5-6 being a 4+ save. Characters and some super fast units get even better saves. Most likely this will be a cover save rather than an invulnerable save as it makes more sense to me. Perhaps also make it so that heavy armor 3+ and better prevents a dodge or perhaps if their armor save is equal to or better than their dodge save they don't get the ability to dodge.

I think this would make dark eldar more survivable and nids as well. The poor orks wouldn't get anything however. If there are armor save restrictions this would prevent eldar getting much in the way of dodge saves and silly little guardsmen and orks wouldn't get dodge saves either.

You trying to turn 40k into Fantasy!!!!!!

We know what happened to that game system.

Death Cult Assassins had an Invulnerable Save that was stated as being their ability to dodge attacks.

 Charistoph wrote:
Death Cult Assassins had an Invulnerable Save that was stated as being their ability to dodge attacks.

Ditto on Harlequins I believe.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Sounds like you're given everyone with poor armour an invulberable save.
No.

More like a cover save and you know you could just avoid it with a template weapon or a gajillion types of tau weapons. There's a lot of anti-cover weapons already.

 rawne2510 wrote:

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So here's what i think. A dodge save would be somebody's initiative cut in half and rounded up by 1. However this goes from initiative 1 and 2 being a 6+ save to initiative 5-6 being a 4+ save. Characters and some super fast units get even better saves. Most likely this will be a cover save rather than an invulnerable save as it makes more sense to me. Perhaps also make it so that heavy armor 3+ and better prevents a dodge or perhaps if their armor save is equal to or better than their dodge save they don't get the ability to dodge.

I think this would make dark eldar more survivable and nids as well. The poor orks wouldn't get anything however. If there are armor save restrictions this would prevent eldar getting much in the way of dodge saves and silly little guardsmen and orks wouldn't get dodge saves either.

You trying to turn 40k into Fantasy!!!!!!

We know what happened to that game system.

Yeah we know that a horrible GW head ruined fantasy and started to pull down AoS before a good GW head saved it (explaining the axing of 2 previous factions and gutting loads of others). That's EXACTLY what happened.

Also no i'm not turning this into fantasy. One more stat doesn't equal zomg Fantasy!!!

Sounds like a terrible idea, IMHO. Already implemented via Invuln as previously mentioned and grows the divide in power for armies even further.

I feel the game is 'complicated' enough without adding another save to worry about.

f4ction wrote:
Sounds like a terrible idea, IMHO. Already implemented via Invuln as previously mentioned and grows the divide in power for armies even further.

I feel the game is 'complicated' enough without adding another save to worry about.

Said it before MORE LIKELY would be just a type of cover save rather than an invulnerable save. Go back and read the post. You can avoid cover with the same things. It'd be just like a jink save with the only difference being it can't be improved with skilled rider.

But isn't the whole 'dodging' thing meant to be part of the WS stat? Hence why it's compared against another WS instead of just being a flat stat like BS?

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
So here's what i think. A dodge save would be somebody's initiative cut in half and rounded up by 1. However this goes from initiative 1 and 2 being a 6+ save to initiative 5-6 being a 4+ save. Characters and some super fast units get even better saves. Most likely this will be a cover save rather than an invulnerable save as it makes more sense to me. Perhaps also make it so that heavy armor 3+ and better prevents a dodge or perhaps if their armor save is equal to or better than their dodge save they don't get the ability to dodge.

I think this would make dark eldar more survivable and nids as well. The poor orks wouldn't get anything however. If there are armor save restrictions this would prevent eldar getting much in the way of dodge saves and silly little guardsmen and orks wouldn't get dodge saves either.

I'm not entirely clear on what you're suggesting. Are we talking about an always-on cover save based on a model's initiative? Some sort of "jink" available to all units with an initiative stat? An in-melee cover save?

As has been stated, this idea is not good. Its not being called invul because it replicates invul exactly. Its being called invul because ap doesnt effect it.

This does grow the divide on many armys. This is what many a proposed rules poster doesn't take into consideration or understand. These changes would not exist in a bubble. Sure marines have a lot of x. But nids and orks don't. Adding in a whole new save that can be stopped by all the same tools as other cover save stopping things only matters when every army has those tools in equal measure. They dont. The armys that do tend to already be powerful and the ones that don't are only getting weaker.

You are not proposing to fix an imbalance. You are proposing to widen the imbalance gap that already exists.

No.

Nobody reads i said cover save which can be handled like any cover save.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:
Nobody reads i said cover save which can be handled like any cover save.

Right, but your "cover save" which is describing the mechanic that assassins and harlequins get invul saves, gives to the haves and have nots disproportionately.
Orks, Am, Nids, etc will not be benefited as much as SM, Eldar, some Dark Eldar (but now you can just make it codex specific with combat drug rework). And no, i am not pretending DE are haves, but not everything in their book has good Int.

As a matter of taste, cover exists in LOS blocking terrain, intervening models, "stealth" fields, camo cloaks, night fighting, area terrain, aegis defense lines, etc. etc. When someone is in the open, I just want to shoot them, not have to ask what their initiative is to run stats again to see if its even worth it.

This idea is good in theory, but the specifics are harder to flush out.

So basically, you want a "Jink" that works only in CC, just as Cover saves only work against shooting...basically

There are already some preexisting units that have something like this. DE Wyches have a 4++ dodge save in CC, and Harlequins & GSC 'Stealers have a 5++ all the time for their quick reflexes/special tech.
A Dodge save only works for models with really high Initiative. Like 6 or higher. There also need to be a way to ignore it, like "Ignores Cover" does for cover saves.

So how about something like this: "If your Initiative is 6 or higher AND is at least 2 points higher than your opponent's highest initiative in that combat, you receive a 5++"
Or something less complicated "If you initiative is at least twice that of you opponent's highest in the combat, you receive a 5++, or +1 to any exist invulnerable save"

Still some kinks there, I'm sure, but it hits all the points. High Init required for reflexes and interacts with the opponent.

Impossible Robe Tzeentch Daemon Prince thanks you for a 2++ rerollable against Marines, or Imperial Knights.

I have been looking at using Initiative in a slightly different way.(For a different type of close combat resolution that is more fast and dirty, than WFB based resolution.)

It is not a dodge save exactly, but it uses Initiative as an opposed value to WS.

The idea is with close combat 'Player A' makes all their attacks, 'Player B' records casualties ,(with a D10.)
The Player B makes all their attacks, and player A records casualties,(with a D10.)
Then casualties are removed.

This allows all models to fight and removes the 'scheduling' rules for who fights when.

Not exactly what the OP was talking about , but it does make the Initiative stat more important to assault resolution.

Lanrak wrote:
I have been looking at using Initiative in a slightly different way.(For a different type of close combat resolution that is more fast and dirty, than WFB based resolution.)

It is not a dodge save exactly, but it uses Initiative as an opposed value to WS.

The idea is with close combat 'Player A' makes all their attacks, 'Player B' records casualties ,(with a D10.)
The Player B makes all their attacks, and player A records casualties,(with a D10.)
Then casualties are removed.

This allows all models to fight and removes the 'scheduling' rules for who fights when.

Not exactly what the OP was talking about , but it does make the Initiative stat more important to assault resolution.

...What? The initiative stat's biggest benefit (being able to kill enemy models before they get a chance to kill yours) is entirely removed by your system. At best, you're replacing that benefit with the possibility that you're hit less often, but unlike the way things are now (where you can wipe an enemy out entirely without suffering a single casualty), you're always allowing the enemy to get its attacks (and therefore model kills).

@Unusual Suspect.
Yes it is a change, but it is part of a re write to remove bloat and add more tactical depth to the game.
The way units line up and take turns striking each other is fine for WHFB and other ancient battle games.(With long drawn out protracted combats.)

The new system I was looking at resolved the combat after one round.

My gaming group and I have been looking at the 'all or nothing type' rules writing that infests the 40k rule set.
And were looking at lots of different ways to improve player interaction and tactical depth.

I should have made it clear it was part of a complete re write, not a stand alone concept.

We use a parry rule. A model can declare before combat to use any number of its attacks as a parry attempt instead. For each hit scored in close combat, a parry attempt forces a re-roll to hit.

If gives lower initiative models a chance to fight at the cost of their attacks. We don't use it often but it seems to work.

You still haven't said when this save applies, and who will be getting it. Is this just a cover save that models get when they're standing in the open? As in my marines suddenly get a 5+ cover save against plasma guns and battle cannons because they break dance when someone shoots at them?

Or is this in CC, where it will be an invulnerable save, making units that pay big points to get AP weapons pointless because everyone still has a 5+ against them, and making buying invulns pointless because you get a free dodge save anyways?