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When you say free vehicles and leave it open ended it seems that people come up with the worst case scenario.

To narrow the focus, here is a list. This is not a stormlance, just a battle company.
I dont think this is a cheese list and i dont think it would do well in a tournament but i could be wrong. I think it is a fluffy list.

Is it cheese and would you play against it?

*it might be helpful to say what formation/list are you using for comparrison? (You dont have to list the whole list but give the highligts)

**I realise that the formation facepalm crew (guard, nids, orcs, etc... ) wouldnt want to play against it but feel free to chime in.



Ultramarines
Space Marines

Battle Demi-company
• Captain 90
• 10 Tactical Marines: Space Marine Sergeant; 9 Tactical Marines; meltagun; multi-melta 160
• 8 Tactical Marines: Space Marine Sergeant; 7 Tactical Marines; plasma gun 127
• 8 Tactical Marines: Space Marine Sergeant; 7 Tactical Marines; plasma gun 127
• 10 Devastator Marines: Space Marine Sergeant; 9 Devastator Marines; 2 × lascannon; 2 × grav-cannon and grav-amp 250
• Land Speeder: multi-melta 60
• Free Rhino
• Free Rhino
• Free Rhino
• Free Rhino

Battle Demi-company
• Chaplain 90
• 10 Tactical Marines: Space Marine Sergeant; 9 Tactical Marines; meltagun; multi-melta 160
• 8 Tactical Marines: Space Marine Sergeant; 7 Tactical Marines; plasma gun 127
• 8 Tactical Marines: Space Marine Sergeant; 7 Tactical Marines; plasma gun 127
• 10 Devastator Marines: Space Marine Sergeant; 9 Devastator Marines; 2 × lascannon; 2 × grav-cannon and grav-amp 250
• Land Speeder: multi-melta 60
• Free Rhino
• Free Rhino
• Free Rhino
• Free Rhino

10th Company Task Force
• 5 Scouts: Scout Sergeant (sniper rifle); 4 Scouts; 4 × sniper rifle; camo cloaks 70
• 5 Scouts: Scout Sergeant (sniper rifle); 4 Scouts; 4 × sniper rifle; camo cloaks 70
• 5 Scouts: Scout Sergeant; 4 Scouts; missile launcher; camo cloaks 80

1,848 points

Gorgonzola....

No idea about tournament viability.

It still LOOKS (from here) like choosing troops in order to get the freebies.

I see hard candy with soft, gooey centers - not even dairy.

I mean, if I had enough ap3 blast/large blast weapons then yea I'd fight it. Not really seen anyone bring that many marines before. Seems fine to me...

280 free points still kind of rubs me the wrong way, even if they are still rhinos. That's 9 free trucks for orks, which is insane if you think about it. Or an entire free Gorkanaut with extra armor/grot riggers.

People see "free" and flip all the tables, forgetting that the list required to get that free stuff has to fundamentally suck in a lot of ways.

The transports may not have a physical numerical cost, but they certainly have an opportunity cost.

I'm surprised people are refusing to see how bad this list is.
Speaking as a Space Wolves player I see metal deathtraps that will do their most damage when they explode and kill a few of the occupants, then a turn of heavy weapons firing snap-shots then dead Ultramarines.

As a Tyranids player I see metal boxes that I can surround and wreck, killing ALL the occupants.

He hasn't even got Flamers to make a decent overwatch.

People see "free" and flip all the tables, forgetting that the list required to get that free stuff has to fundamentally suck in a lot of ways.

The transports may not have a physical numerical cost, but they certainly have an opportunity cost.

Not if you already own them.

You're playing a 2128 point list in an 1850 point game. It's cheese.

 warhead01 wrote:

People see "free" and flip all the tables, forgetting that the list required to get that free stuff has to fundamentally suck in a lot of ways.

The transports may not have a physical numerical cost, but they certainly have an opportunity cost.

Not if you already own them.

Erm... not sure what you mean?
His point has nothing to do with the $$$ cost which I assume is what you are referring to, but you are right having to buy ~4 rhinos (guessed at how many he owns own from points value in his sig including chaos ones) would cost quite a bit.
Opportunity cost basically refers to the principle that in order to get the "free" rhinos you have to spend your points on tactical marines instead of spending your points on other types of units which are more points efficient as standard.

Personally I would be fine going against this list. It may have a lot of free rhinos but it also has a lot of regular marines rather than fancy marines. And also no armour values over 11, rhinos aren't hard to pop.

Yes, I misunderstood what he meant.

 Peregrine wrote:
You're playing a 2128 point list in an 1850 point game. It's cheese.

This is the winner of the thread right here.

As much as people go 'But the core list is awful, but there's an opportunity cost, etc. etc.' it doesn't change the fact that in an 1850 point game one side is showing up with an extra 300 points of models that cost them nothing.

And before you say 'but what can these free vehicles do?'

Well for starters they all have ObSec due to the formation they are part of. Which means unless you have ObSec yourself you are now forced to divert attention to those 300 points of free vehicles (which can be a ballache if you are playing an army that is slow moving or generally doesn't cope well with armour) or just lose objectives.

And in a game where more than 2/3rds of the scenarios involve objective control, 300 extra points of objective secured vehicles has one hell of an impact.

Formations have "free" stuff, just because there isn't an easy point value to assign it doesn't change that fact. Also as a counter argument things like the Scat Bike packs, Warp Spiders, and Wraithknights are so undercosted that even using a CAD they are getting more bang for your point than most of the other stuff in the game.

Example: If an Ork player uses Nobz and a Space Wolf player uses Wulfen is that remotely fair? What about if Nobz had a formation that gave them free Big Choppas or Eavy Armor and the Space Wolf player is taking Wulfen as written in the codex with no free rules or formation bonuses? Is the Ork player being a cheeselord because of "free stuff"? Free stuff doesn't make things any more OP than poorly designed rules in the base Codex.

 Vankraken wrote:
Formations have "free" stuff, just because there isn't an easy point value to assign it doesn't change that fact. Also as a counter argument things like the Scat Bike packs, Warp Spiders, and Wraithknights are so undercosted that even using a CAD they are getting more bang for your point than most of the other stuff in the game.

These are also problems. "Other people use cheese lists" is not a compelling response to a list being cheese.

 Vankraken wrote:
Formations have "free" stuff, just because there isn't an easy point value to assign it doesn't change that fact. Also as a counter argument things like the Scat Bike packs, Warp Spiders, and Wraithknights are so undercosted that even using a CAD they are getting more bang for your point than most of the other stuff in the game.

Example: If an Ork player uses Nobz and a Space Wolf player uses Wulfen is that remotely fair? What about if Nobz had a formation that gave them free Big Choppas or Eavy Armor and the Space Wolf player is taking Wulfen as written in the codex with no free rules or formation bonuses? Is the Ork player being a cheeselord because of "free stuff"? Free stuff doesn't make things any more OP than poorly designed rules in the base Codex.

Except the free units and free upgrade formations....ALSO have free special rules tacked on as well.

If it was one or the other? Then you could pretend there was a semblance of balance, but that is not the case. You're not 'just' getting free units or upgrades. You're getting them in addition to special rules you otherwise would not have.

Are certain units undercosted? Yes. However, they still have a points cost assigned to them in their codex. The Eldar player is showing up with undercosted units. Not with 300+ points of extra units.

That should be a fundamental basic - if you agree to play a game of X points, you play a game of X points. Not a game where your opponent has X points and you really have X++ points.

Those undercosted Eldar units? Still take up Force Org slots. They still cost points. They are still being taken instead of something else. They're not 'free'. Trying to scapegoat Eldar doesn't excuse the fact that free upgrades/units is a violation of the core principle of just about any wargame out there. Armies/Models/Units cost points. Games are played to an agreed amount of points unless it is a specific scenario that calls for otherwise.

I mean, hell, the same people trying to excuse these free ObSec rhinos or free upgrades across an entire Ad-Mech convocation are the ones who spat blood at Daemon Summoning.

Despite the fact Daemon summoning has to jump through so many god damned hoops to even trigger and now can be effectively crapped on by a single unit that these same Imperial players can take with all those points they saved elsewhere.

Yeah your not running the sharp cheddar version.

I still would be hesitant to play it because free vehicles in any form is bs

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Formations have "free" stuff, just because there isn't an easy point value to assign it doesn't change that fact. Also as a counter argument things like the Scat Bike packs, Warp Spiders, and Wraithknights are so undercosted that even using a CAD they are getting more bang for your point than most of the other stuff in the game.

Example: If an Ork player uses Nobz and a Space Wolf player uses Wulfen is that remotely fair? What about if Nobz had a formation that gave them free Big Choppas or Eavy Armor and the Space Wolf player is taking Wulfen as written in the codex with no free rules or formation bonuses? Is the Ork player being a cheeselord because of "free stuff"? Free stuff doesn't make things any more OP than poorly designed rules in the base Codex.

Except the free units and free upgrade formations....ALSO have free special rules tacked on as well.

If it was one or the other? Then you could pretend there was a semblance of balance, but that is not the case. You're not 'just' getting free units or upgrades. You're getting them in addition to special rules you otherwise would not have.

That's missing the point of the hypothetical I gave. You could give Nobz free Big Choppas and Eavy Armor plus give them bullyboyz rules (+1WS, Fear, Fearless) and they still would be worse than Wulfen. Balance is relative to everything else in the game and formations that slap on extra rules and bonuses don't inherently make things OP when they could very well be already underpowered or that the opportunity cost for taking a certain amount of stuff makes them less ideal unless they have incentives. IF the base codexes where in any way, shape, or form close to balanced then your argument would have more merit but 40k codexes are so horribly balanced that most formations don't impact game balance one bit. Its just the select few formations that are OP because they either overshoot the mark by quite a bit or they are buffing already OP units.

Are certain units undercosted? Yes. However, they still have a points cost assigned to them in their codex. The Eldar player is showing up with undercosted units. Not with 300+ points of extra units.

If the Eldar player is using an 1850 point army of Scatbikes, Wraithknight, and Warpspiders in a CAD vs say CSM using a CAD you could very well see that 1850 of CSMs are not remotely close to equal to 1850 points of that Eldar list. You don't need "free points" to get an army that gets way more units that are better.

Those undercosted Eldar units? Still take up Force Org slots. They still cost points. They are still being taken instead of something else. They're not 'free'. Trying to scapegoat Eldar doesn't excuse the fact that free upgrades/units is a violation of the core principle of just about any wargame out there. Armies/Models/Units cost points. Games are played to an agreed amount of points unless it is a specific scenario that calls for otherwise.

No Eldar player in 7th edition has trouble with FOC slots when Scatbikes are troops and their HQ is one of the most versatile and powerful psykers in the game (Farseer). Also many armies get free stuff in their base rules such as Chapter Tactics, an Ork Waaagh!!!, those Skitari +/- to BS/WS, etc. Are those armies a violation of the core rules of wargaming? Also what about the FW Ork character that can take Warbikers as troops or how a SM Captain on a bike can take bikers as troops? That alters the FOC requirements and lets them get more slots and gives those units free rules (Ob Sec). You can want 40k to be as puritan as it can be but in the end its never that cut and dry while massive codex imbalance has always been a problem with GW and continue to make it impossible to slap down two armies from two different codexes and have an even game unless both players actively try to aim for a similar relative power level.

I mean, hell, the same people trying to excuse these free ObSec rhinos or free upgrades across an entire Ad-Mech convocation are the ones who spat blood at Daemon Summoning.

Despite the fact Daemon summoning has to jump through so many god damned hoops to even trigger and now can be effectively crapped on by a single unit that these same Imperial players can take with all those points they saved elsewhere.

Daemon summoning is still making free units and its baked into the games core rule set letting basically any army with a psyker able to take advantage of it. Granted certain psykers are far better at summoning daemons than others but its still free points. Daemons summoning daemons which summon daemons (aka the daemon factory) is very much a thing and honestly its most limiting factor is the need to actually own that many models.

The biggest thing to take away from all of this is that the game is balanced by both players playing the game with a mutual agreement on what sort of game they want to play. Somebody playing a really fluffy guard list is not going to do well against a hardcore Eldar, Daemon, or Tau list because those armies have the stronger codex. I use Eldar in the examples because you can plug them into any format (Pure RAW, 5th edition style CAD only, formation spam, fluffy lists only, etc) and you end up with a potentially extremely strong army that can rofl stomp a lot of armies because the Eldar codex is REALLY powerful. Removing formations, Decurions, free points, etc won't magically make the game more balanced because we play with a game system where the core rules are critically imbalanced.

As to the OP's list. Seems like a fairly bog standard battle company but with less grav. Seems rather easy going all things considered with a lot of bolter marines compared to trying to min/max the number of special weapons.

The game is a hot mess. Arguing about which faction's rules splattered more crap around seems silly.

 Vankraken wrote:

That's missing the point of the hypothetical I gave. You could give Nobz free Big Choppas and Eavy Armor plus give them bullyboyz rules (+1WS, Fear, Fearless) and they still would be worse than Wulfen. Balance is relative to everything else in the game and formations that slap on extra rules and bonuses don't inherently make things OP when they could very well be already underpowered or that the opportunity cost for taking a certain amount of stuff makes them less ideal unless they have incentives. IF the base codexes where in any way, shape, or form close to balanced then your argument would have more merit but 40k codexes are so horribly balanced that most formations don't impact game balance one bit. Its just the select few formations that are OP because they either overshoot the mark by quite a bit or they are buffing already OP units.

The hypothetical point you are giving is comparing a unit that is known to be overcosted to a power unit in another army altogether. Pretty sure if I compared a Trygon to a Wraithknight we'd reach the same conclusion. Not to mention the fact they have completely different roles altogether for the army they are part of. Plus you're comparing an army that recently got an update (in Curse of the Wulfen) to an army still stuck in the 6th ed. power glut who's only update was a reprint of a supplement with a poorly tacked together Decurion.

That's not comparing apples to oranges. That's comparing a dead opossum to oranges and wondering why one tastes sweeter than the other.

If the Eldar player is using an 1850 point army of Scatbikes, Wraithknight, and Warpspiders in a CAD vs say CSM using a CAD you could very well see that 1850 of CSMs are not remotely close to equal to 1850 points of that Eldar list. You don't need "free points" to get an army that gets way more units that are better.

Sure. The army performs better. They're still not bringing 300+ points of free ObSec vehicles to the table. It's still an 1850 point game. GW's point balance is almost always internal - based against other units in the codex rather than other units in other armies. We've always known this. No one is saying otherwise. But that isn't changing the fact that Gladius or War Convo are still bringing 300-500 points extra to a game on top of other bonuses they are getting and that is still a crock of BS.

If I brought 300-500 extra points of CSM to a game you'd call me a cheater and if it was competitive I'd basically be disqualified. You do it and it's a formation bonus. What?!

No Eldar player in 7th edition has trouble with FOC slots when Scatbikes are troops and their HQ is one of the most versatile and powerful psykers in the game (Farseer). Also many armies get free stuff in their base rules such as Chapter Tactics, an Ork Waaagh!!!, those Skitari +/- to BS/WS, etc. Are those armies a violation of the core rules of wargaming? Also what about the FW Ork character that can take Warbikers as troops or how a SM Captain on a bike can take bikers as troops? That alters the FOC requirements and lets them get more slots and gives those units free rules (Ob Sec). You can want 40k to be as puritan as it can be but in the end its never that cut and dry while massive codex imbalance has always been a problem with GW and continue to make it impossible to slap down two armies from two different codexes and have an even game unless both players actively try to aim for a similar relative power level.

Army special rules and internal codex balance do not excuse bringing 300-500 extra points of stuff to a game mate. You can quibble about this all you like. The difference is that a structure still exists on a Force Org chart. An army is limited by its point costs. The moment you start ignoring that and handing out free gak to everyone is the moment that you're chucking balance to the side.

Is Army A arguably underpointed? Quite possibly. Does Army B have better army rules? Quite possibly. The point is Army A, B and C all have Army Rules and a points system in place. The moment Army C starts bringing along a quarter of the points total as extra 'free' stuff is the moment that balance is chucked out the window.

Daemon summoning is still making free units and its baked into the games core rule set letting basically any army with a psyker able to take advantage of it. Granted certain psykers are far better at summoning daemons than others but its still free points. Daemons summoning daemons which summon daemons (aka the daemon factory) is very much a thing and honestly its most limiting factor is the need to actually own that many models.

Fun facts. Daemon Summoning has hoops to jump through.

If the caster is a non-daemon player they're getting Perils on any roll of a double and half the discipline is pretty much useless to them. They also have to get the right powers.
Any unit summoned causes a wound.
They have to generate enough warp charge in the pool and have to get enough off to summon. This can still be subject to DtW or any other effects that strip away Warp Charge or make it harder to manifest.

Daemons themselves actually got a nerf towards this. You may not have noticed, but the main pool for the Daemon-bomb lost access to Maelific with Wrath of Magnus.

Furthermore, you'll find with the exception of Chaos players...most people don't have Daemons in their collection as a whole.

SM players will have transports. Saying they wouldn't have transports is like trying to tell me that Tyranid players wouldn't have Gaunts somewhere in their collection.
Ad-Mech players, hilariously enough, will have all those unit upgrades they're getting for free.

Furthermore, they're getting the free points just by writing an army list.

No dice rolled. No chance to prevent it. No risk involved. This is exactly why it's bs. You can't even compare it to daemon summoning. One has risk involved, has an element of randomness and requires the right circumstances to even trigger (PS the Daemons can still mishap) while the other has....no risk and all the reward.

Oy vey.

 Eldarain wrote:
The game is a hot mess. Arguing about which faction's rules splattered more crap around seems silly.

If you think its silly there is no reason to post in this thread. Debating the topic was the purpose of the thread. The game will remain a 'hot mess' if players cant reach a consensus.



I specifically said in the OP to please list what you are using for mental comparrison and everyone glossed over it.

I thought we could come to some kind of agreement of which formations this is equal to. Because like many have said we are responsible for game balance. I thought for sure that someone would say 'I run the XYZ formation and i would play against that list' or ' i play ABC list and i wouldnt play against that list.

But obtuse opinions will rule the day i suppose. And most will just jump on the bandwagon of the loudest and most verbose. Or regurgitate the opinion that benefits them the most.

And for the people who like to exaggerate: in this example the free points are 15% of the formation total. Not a quarter. 280 points not 300 to 500. When you feel the need to inflate numbers in favor of your argument it tells me you dont think your argument is strong enough on its own.

When people at the game shop bring formations that very easily confer a 15% advantage but then freak out because of the dreaded word 'free' and 'gladius' it upsets me. But i would rather debate it here so as not to spoil a relationship with someone i want to play with.

I really didnt want to change anyone's mind about free things granted in formations being bad. But I find it very shocking that people cant make the mental leap that some formations, when played against each other balance out.

Go ahead guys, keep beating that drum! Free Rhinos are bad! Free Rhinos are bad!

If I brought 300-500 extra points of CSM to a game you'd call me a cheater and if it was competitive I'd basically be disqualified. You do it and it's a formation bonus. What?! "

This sums up the entire topic.

You're basically bringing free stuff to a game, and then saying "but it's in the rules". If it's an 1850 point game, then that's what it is. It's not a 2,300 point game.

Sure, I understand some armies are under-powered, OR that some detachments/formations make some armies stronger (such as the new Death Guard rules).

So I understand it's not as clear cut as that. The whole situation is just really messed up. I am disappointed GW went down this route. If someone brings a regular CAD or a basic formation, they can get crushed in a hilarious one-sided beat down.

Free vehicles are fine as long as there are so many undercosted Xeno units. Having undercosted units is functionally the same as getting free stuff. WK gives your list ~100 pts of free stuff for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Whitebeard wrote:

If I brought 300-500 extra points of CSM to a game you'd call me a cheater and if it was competitive I'd basically be disqualified. You do it and it's a formation bonus. What?! "

This sums up the entire topic.

You're basically bringing free stuff to a game, and then saying "but it's in the rules". If it's an 1850 point game, then that's what it is. It's not a 2,300 point game.

1850 Eldar lists aren't 1850 lists. They are like 3000 pt lists.

1850 Eldar lists aren't 1850 lists. They are like 3000 pt lists.

I understand that. GW should fix them in the next edition. Instead, they seemed to do the reverse. Fix everything else. Almost like they issued a patch to the entire game except Eldar.

 Whitebeard wrote:

1850 Eldar lists aren't 1850 lists. They are like 3000 pt lists.

I understand that. GW should fix them in the next edition. Instead, they seemed to do the reverse. Fix everything else. Almost like they issued a patch to the entire game except Eldar.

That's because "fixing" everything else spurs model sales. I"m guessing. I still don't understand why GW will launch a brand new model kit with useless rules.

What are you basing your opinion on?!? Your personal list has a big influence on your opinion. I think if you are going to say this formation is too strong you should list what you are personally comparing it to.

Cheese? No. I would play this over a 5 knight list any day of the week. In a tournament, many armies will stomp it. It doesn't have teeth, just free kill points...er, I mean rhinos.


8 Tactical Marines: Space Marine Sergeant; 7 Tactical Marines; plasma gun 127
8 Tactical Marines: Space Marine Sergeant; 7 Tactical Marines; plasma gun 127

Why?

Drop 1 to 5, the other to 10 with a heavy weapon of choice. Combat squad them, putting the sergeant and special weapon in the rhino and shoot with the heavy weapon in your deployment zone.

Or, keep both at 5, ad a matching combi-weapon to the sergeant and have points left over for another speeder. Or change the 2 speeders to 2 attack bikes with multi melta.

I haven't played 40k in a long time, but back when I played, 1,500pts meant 1,500pts.

Adding in "extras" for free is a slap in the face to your opponent. Doesn't matter if the free units are low tier - you still need to deal with them. Which in turn thins out the shooting of the main army, and let's him pull off stupid moves because you CANNOT deal with them due to the amount of physical models you have compared to Mr Freebie.

Getting extra's due to a formation is pure BS cheese, plain and simple.

It's no worse than getting a WK for 295.

Edit. removing. not sure what the intent of the original list was, and my previous post could be considered rude.

I'll just say that it seems like he created a very tame list, to prove the point that people will stubbornly call something cheese even when it is very clearly not.

 kronk wrote:
Cheese? No. I would play this over a 5 knight list any day of the week. In a tournament, many armies will stomp it. It doesn't have teeth, just free kill points...er, I mean rhinos.


8 Tactical Marines: Space Marine Sergeant; 7 Tactical Marines; plasma gun 127
8 Tactical Marines: Space Marine Sergeant; 7 Tactical Marines; plasma gun 127

Why?

Drop 1 to 5, the other to 10 with a heavy weapon of choice. Combat squad them, putting the sergeant and special weapon in the rhino and shoot with the heavy weapon in your deployment zone.

Or, keep both at 5, ad a matching combi-weapon to the sergeant and have points left over for another speeder. Or change the 2 speeders to 2 attack bikes with multi melta.

I know it's not a strong list. That was my point. Free Rhino's do not make a list strong. Im trying to illustrate that people shouldnt knee-jerk when they hear 'gladius free rhino'. As it is now you will get labeled as 'that guy' if you bring a list with free Rhinos regardless of it's real strength.

I would much rather play against this list than a min-max list spamming grav and an invisible death star.

 Kellevil wrote:


I know it's not a strong list. That was my point. Free Rhino's do not make a list strong. Im trying to illustrate that people shouldnt knee-jerk when they hear 'gladius free rhino'. As it is now you will get labeled as 'that guy' if you bring a list with free Rhinos regardless of it's real strength.

I would much rather play against this list than a min-max list spamming grav and an invisible death star.

Oh, I see your point, now. Yeah, I wouldn't have any problems playing against this list at 2000 points. My Chaos Space Marines might have a chance!