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I heard somewhere on the internetz that GW's rule development team only consists of like 5 people. Is this true? If so, how can they possibly justify this on a game as widely played and as codex varied as 40k? I mean, FW is presumably even smaller than GW and yet 30k is far more balanced.
Well, 'hearing it in the internetz' isn't really the best source, traditionally speaking.
Sadly the only people who could confirm the numbers are GW and the studio peeps themselves. And they're not about to tell us.
30k is also easier to balance. Barring Taghmata, Knights, Solar Auxilia and the Cults, it's all slight variances on the one list - no Legion has a lion's share of unique units.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, 'hearing it in the internetz' isn't really the best source, traditionally speaking.
Sadly the only people who could confirm the numbers are GW and the studio peeps themselves. And they're not about to tell us.
30k is also easier to balance. Barring Taghmata, Knights, Solar Auxilia and the Cults, it's all slight variances on the one list - no Legion has a lion's share of unique units.
I don't buy that. I understand there are fewer factions for FW to balance against each other but the power imbalance between some 40k codexes is ridiculous beyond belief. If FW can be bothered to play test each faction they have then the larger parent company doesn't have an excuse.
Not that we haven't known this for a while of course, but I had just heard the little blurb about them having only a half dozen people or so on their development team the other day. I figured that might explain why their rules writing was incompetent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/28 12:05:03
I guess that strong game designers are rare. I mean people like Andy Chambers and the like.
In the past we have seen GW battle reports from employees in the marketing department and the like. Not very trustable. Strong players demand better a better GW "game plan".
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Thanks for the link.
Not bad. He made some good points. He has lots of experience.
I would be curious to see what his opinion is about the current state of 40k and whatnot.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
I believe it's been stated somewhere the rules team is very small, and they split between AOS/40k/other so there isn't a dedicated rules team for each game; I've also heard 5 people.
Which, I think, is a big part of the problem. Each game should have its own design team (doesn't have to be huge, but a few dedicated people), with Jervis overseeing them all because he's the "old man" of the design staff from the olden days.
To be fair to GW, and I don't like being fair to GW, I'll highlight the following for the sake of balance:
If you've been following the careers of people like Andy Chambers and Rick Priestly over the years, and have read what they have to say, you'll discover they didn't always get it right.
They weren't genius game designers from Day 1 - they learnt the hard way through experience, and they've always been the first to say this.
There's a lot of trial and error in game design before you get the finished product.
Has it occurred to people that game designers might not have a lot of say?
In past years, if Tom Kirby tells you to make rules for the Tau Mega battle suit of DOOM, because he thinks it'll make GW lots of money, and even if you know it'll horribly imbalance the game, you may have no choice but to make the best of a bad situation if you want to keep your job.
Lots of people, myself included, have worked in jobs where you know something is a bad idea, but you're not going to argue with an order from HQ.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I am a game designer and I will say that unless you are independent, you are beholden to a company that signs your paycheck.
If the marketing / sales team wants to move models better and demand you make their rules a little more powerful (a lot powerful) to do so, you will do it.
auticus wrote: I am a game designer and I will say that unless you are independent, you are beholden to a company that signs your paycheck.
If the marketing / sales team wants to move models better and demand you make their rules a little more powerful (a lot powerful) to do so, you will do it.
Wait, you're a game designer?
But if anything, being a small rule team (and I think that I've heard the five-men figure too from the twitch feed, and said by a dude from the rules-design team to boot) means you don't have that much time to playtest and you are also constrained by corporate needs. After all, someone once said, that the dev-team was but another marketing department for the model-sculptors.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/28 15:45:12
wuestenfux wrote: What would be the best education for game designers?
Seriously?
Practice, a good imagination, some statistics and writing skills. Like the old man once said, "If you want to be a writer, write."
Past workers all have blogs out there and are active on LinkedIn. They have extensive knowledge and chops behind them, but to be a true possibility, you have to have something to show as a portfolio, and then get in on the company by networking, careers, HR, and the like.
I didn't like Gav Thorpe much back in the day, he reminded me of that snotty little kid that hung around the game store, asking questions all the time, and getting into everybody's stuff, in point of fact- THAT was the exact reason why he became as successful as he did. Then they gave him a project, then two, then three- then he evolved his skills ands really did well for GW.
Writers and publishing is a business, to get into any business, you have to get into the business, so to speak. Write, contact publishers. get ready for rejections, and continue to write. Works for all writers, and some of the ones I know have a good saying- "Don't do it for the money."
THEN there is the obvious- start from one job, evolve into more. GW's culture once was to get people from in-house- even non-writers. and get to them from inside the company. I honestly see GW's culture as not like that anymore, and they run more like a law firm, where you had better stay in your own lane, or get cut from the team. The Culture of their company honestly, from the outside looking in, sucks. I wouldn't work for them. With all of the other companies out there, that do not have to try to live up to a legend- THAT in fact would be where I would start. I'm not the one saying don't work for GW, or shut you down. I am the one saying- Write. Write, and the other things will come.
At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money.
JamesY wrote: A team of five isn't the same thing as there only being five rules designers. There are multiple teams at work on different projects simultaneously.
Which is the main cause of balance issues because each team does their own thing.
You only need one Designer for each game, and he/she needs a team to get the writing done, playtest etc. Having several teams, all with their own designer than you get into balance problems.
also the not doing all rules at the same time thing of GW is a reason
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
JamesY wrote: A team of five isn't the same thing as there only being five rules designers. There are multiple teams at work on different projects simultaneously.
Which is the main cause of balance issues because each team does their own thing.
You only need one Designer for each game, and he/she needs a team to get the writing done, playtest etc. Having several teams, all with their own designer than you get into balance problems.
also the not doing all rules at the same time thing of GW is a reason
auticus wrote:I am a game designer and I will say that unless you are independent, you are beholden to a company that signs your paycheck.
If the marketing / sales team wants to move models better and demand you make their rules a little more powerful (a lot powerful) to do so, you will do it.
I fully agree. There is no way these guys are that stupid. GW as an entity on the other hand? Even Robin Crudace, has a PhD. So he is smart. Thing is, how come he doesn't have a job in his field if he has a PhD? That always confused me. Doing his dream and following his passion when he had a chance? Good for him then if that is the case. Just wish he stayed away from Tyranids.
That said I am surprised nobody has mentioned the names.
We still have:
Jervis Johnson
Phil Kelly
Robin Crudace (think I spelt the name wrong)
Jeremy Vetock? (spelling but not sure if he is still with GW. Haven't herd his name after Dark Angel codex.)
Sorry I forget the new persons name. The new person who did the Deathwatch and Genestealer Cult codex. (I think he did both, could be wrong.)
Who am I forgetting? While Matt Ward is a "consultant now or freelance" I don't think he is there to make codices but maybe fluff for some projects. We don't know maybe he is making a new codex now. Time will tell. Maybe.
Yeah that would be 5. I believe they have a team underneath them though so that could explain GW 140+ employees.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
auticus wrote:I am a game designer and I will say that unless you are independent, you are beholden to a company that signs your paycheck.
If the marketing / sales team wants to move models better and demand you make their rules a little more powerful (a lot powerful) to do so, you will do it.
I fully agree. There is no way these guys are that stupid. GW as an entity on the other hand? Even Robin Crudace, has a PhD. So he is smart. Thing is, how come he doesn't have a job in his field if he has a PhD? That always confused me. Doing his dream and following his passion when he had a chance? Good for him then if that is the case. Just wish he stayed away from Tyranids.
That said I am surprised nobody has mentioned the names.
We still have:
Jervis Johnson
Phil Kelly
Robin Crudace (think I spelt the name wrong)
Jeremy Vetock? (spelling but not sure if he is still with GW. Haven't herd his name after Dark Angel codex.)
Sorry I forget the new persons name. The new person who did the Deathwatch and Genestealer Cult codex. (I think he did both, could be wrong.)
Who am I forgetting? While Matt Ward is a "consultant now or freelance" I don't think he is there to make codices but maybe fluff for some projects. We don't know maybe he is making a new codex now. Time will tell. Maybe.
Yeah that would be 5. I believe they have a team underneath them though so that could explain GW 140+ employees.
Well sure, I get the concept of giving great rules to models they really want to sell. Not that I agree with that concept but it IS a business after all. The real problem to me, is seeing older codexes like Orks, AM, Nids, BA, DE and (only until recently) CSM's languish in bottom-tier land for years.
Sure, some of those factions got supplements this year or in the past year or two but often these were deemed very subpar at best. I mean, how many supplements did Chaos Marines get before Traitor Legions that were still considered a joke? How hard would it have been to give these armies a power boost to be put on par with the post-Necron codexes?
auticus wrote:I am a game designer and I will say that unless you are independent, you are beholden to a company that signs your paycheck.
If the marketing / sales team wants to move models better and demand you make their rules a little more powerful (a lot powerful) to do so, you will do it.
I fully agree. There is no way these guys are that stupid. GW as an entity on the other hand? Even Robin Crudace, has a PhD. So he is smart. Thing is, how come he doesn't have a job in his field if he has a PhD? That always confused me. Doing his dream and following his passion when he had a chance? Good for him then if that is the case. Just wish he stayed away from Tyranids.
That said I am surprised nobody has mentioned the names.
We still have:
Jervis Johnson
Phil Kelly
Robin Crudace (think I spelt the name wrong)
Jeremy Vetock? (spelling but not sure if he is still with GW. Haven't herd his name after Dark Angel codex.)
Sorry I forget the new persons name. The new person who did the Deathwatch and Genestealer Cult codex. (I think he did both, could be wrong.)
Who am I forgetting? While Matt Ward is a "consultant now or freelance" I don't think he is there to make codices but maybe fluff for some projects. We don't know maybe he is making a new codex now. Time will tell. Maybe.
Yeah that would be 5. I believe they have a team underneath them though so that could explain GW 140+ employees.
Sometimes it comes down to other passions, or life screwing you. My brother is an accountant and yet his degree and specialization are for being a school/high-school teacher.
But we can all agree that crudace should be left alone with astra militarum and be given a copy of the advance wars video game series.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/28 20:25:02
The trouble with GW is that the rules teams and games designers don't really matter that much. Many of the decisions about the new rules releases are made long before the designers get to have a say in it. For example, it was decided at the top that the AOS rules "must fit on 4 pages". Why? Because someone important believed it would be more profitable. So they give that brief to the design team and tell them to get to work. Now it doesn't matter how many people you put to work on designing that game - the result will be shaped by that initial restriction.
GW corporate doesn't care about the quality of the rules they put out per se. They only care when their spreadsheets tell them to. So while they're making so much money on IP licenses and model sales, everything else is less important. There's just no incentive for GW to invest the time and money needed to develop and maintain really good, balanced rules with every new model release. It's much more cost-effective to just update the power-creep cycle.
Interview with Jervis Johnson, Heelanhammer podcast 165. They start discussing AOS at 24 minutes in.
"... the planning process for Age of Sigmar was going on elsewhere, really, so I got involved relatively late when we were starting to look at the rules for the game [...] What we had was a brief, [...] in particular there was a desire for us to get the rules on to about 4 sides of A4. [I remember thinking] Wow, that's going to be challenging!"
They've also stated that the design team often gets handed a miniature that has already been, I can't remember if it's already sculpted and cast or already designed, but either way they get handed something that says "Make rules for this model" and have to figure out how to fit it in. So they are often working without anything other than a sketch/mockup/model of something that *must* go into the game, and it's on them to figure out how to give it rules.
Which is also pretty ass-backwards to how you design rules.
It makes perfect sense if you think GW's main income is from selling models, not winning games design awards.
It's been like this for a long time. I remember an article in White Dwarf back at the launch of 5th edition fantasy. They talked a lot about how one of the Perry twins had spent ages researching and designing the Lizardmen, their culture and the different tribes and species. He drew up some sketches and other artwork, then he sculpted the models.
Then someone else had to go and think up some rules for them to fit in the game. Somehow, this version of WHFB won an award for its rules. (Although, to be fair, it was the army books that caused HeroHammer, not the core rules).
the problem is, this is not true
we had lots of new stuff that had bad rules when released or whole factions that were underpowered.
and GW don't care because they still think rules don't sell
their solution with the problem that oeople don't buy models because of bad rules was to release the model first and the rules later.
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
auticus wrote:I am a game designer and I will say that unless you are independent, you are beholden to a company that signs your paycheck.
If the marketing / sales team wants to move models better and demand you make their rules a little more powerful (a lot powerful) to do so, you will do it.
I fully agree. There is no way these guys are that stupid. GW as an entity on the other hand? Even Robin Crudace, has a PhD. So he is smart. Thing is, how come he doesn't have a job in his field if he has a PhD? That always confused me. Doing his dream and following his passion when he had a chance? Good for him then if that is the case. Just wish he stayed away from Tyranids.
That said I am surprised nobody has mentioned the names.
We still have:
Jervis Johnson
Phil Kelly
Robin Crudace (think I spelt the name wrong)
Jeremy Vetock? (spelling but not sure if he is still with GW. Haven't herd his name after Dark Angel codex.)
Sorry I forget the new persons name. The new person who did the Deathwatch and Genestealer Cult codex. (I think he did both, could be wrong.)
Who am I forgetting? While Matt Ward is a "consultant now or freelance" I don't think he is there to make codices but maybe fluff for some projects. We don't know maybe he is making a new codex now. Time will tell. Maybe.
Yeah that would be 5. I believe they have a team underneath them though so that could explain GW 140+ employees.
Well sure, I get the concept of giving great rules to models they really want to sell. Not that I agree with that concept but it IS a business after all. The real problem to me, is seeing older codexes like Orks, AM, Nids, BA, DE and (only until recently) CSM's languish in bottom-tier land for years.
Sure, some of those factions got supplements this year or in the past year or two but often these were deemed very subpar at best. I mean, how many supplements did Chaos Marines get before Traitor Legions that were still considered a joke? How hard would it have been to give these armies a power boost to be put on par with the post-Necron codexes?
Did you quote the wrong person? I am not sure how that applies to what I said. Not feeling good today so maybe just went over my head.
WaveyRaven wrote:The trouble with GW is that the rules teams and games designers don't really matter that much. Many of the decisions about the new rules releases are made long before the designers get to have a say in it. For example, it was decided at the top that the AOS rules "must fit on 4 pages". Why? Because someone important believed it would be more profitable. So they give that brief to the design team and tell them to get to work. Now it doesn't matter how many people you put to work on designing that game - the result will be shaped by that initial restriction.
GW corporate doesn't care about the quality of the rules they put out per se. They only care when their spreadsheets tell them to. So while they're making so much money on IP licenses and model sales, everything else is less important. There's just no incentive for GW to invest the time and money needed to develop and maintain really good, balanced rules with every new model release. It's much more cost-effective to just update the power-creep cycle.
So why the change of heart from GW in January 2016 then? It looks like it's not so cost-effective anymore now is it? That is old GW, GW has changed in 2016. 40K 8th edition will finally see what version of GW is the real version. Time will tell soon.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever." 
Good luck.
