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Okay, I just rejoined the Hobby after a break of several years just when the Deathwatch Codex came out and I was quite happy about that since I love the Fluff of them

"This shall be my army, lets purge some Xenos" I said to myself. I always liked the Idea of a relatively small elite Army.

I bought the Codex and was satisfied with the rules. I liked how the basic Veterans could have anything, especially a Bolter AND a Shotgun. Beastly in Overwatch and all around versatility in shooting for no upgrade cost.
Then I bought an Army. A squad of Veterans and Vanguards and the Venerable from Death Masque, a Watchblade Strike Force, 3 Droppods and 2 Blackstars. And 10 Frag Cannons from Anvil Industries.

Now the FAQ dropped which HEAVILY nerfed the Deathwatch Codex in my Opinion. It was nerfed so badly I think about scrapping the whole Project again and turn my back on 40k once again before I even got to play once.

I mean,

- Beacon Angelis cannot be used out of the Drop Pod anymore even if there are no actual rules preventing it.

- Bolter/Shotgun combo got illegalized even though the rules in the Codex CLEARLY allow it.

- Kill teams cannot get dedicated Transports any more, so drop pod alpha is a whole lot weaker now.

- Watchmaster cannot shoot&assault with his Guardian Spear anymore because the attached Bolter is a rapid fire weapon. Really. Someone at GW just figured that out. (seriously, whats the use of that "able to fire the gun and use the spear in assault"-rule then? In the FAQ they rabble about "in the event the Model gains the Relentless special rule...." well, except it wont because a Watchmaster has zero options. Do they actually think about stuff before they write it?)

- The Deathwatch cannot use the Imperial Space Marine. (okay, i dont know what that means but it sounds substantial )

- Black Shields and Sergeants can't use Heavy Thunder Hammers. Which makes me sad.

I feel stripped of all the little tricks that made me decide to play a pure Deathwatch army which wasnt even close to being a top tier army before the FAQ hit them. I'm sitting here on all these models and I cannot figure out any list that at least looks like it could work. All of that really puts me off. Also: Deathwatch cannot use ANY ForgeWorld Vehicle right now. They'd need it. Badly.

Can anyone give me some hope?

Sadly no.
Options for HQ mounts are almost non existant, very few -if any- Kill Teams are comprised completely of fast models. In their own kill teams they just feel so clumsy.

As an ally the Deathwatch are downright beastly.

couple of points

-guardian spear can be used to overwatch, so pre faq you could overwatch and then not hit anyone with it. Also psychic powers can grant relentless along with EW and FnP.

-why would you want a blackshield with a heavy thunder hammer. Makes him swing last so most things will kill him in a challenge before you hit, wasting a lot of points.

However, combi melta and shotgun isn't illegal(?) giving you three guns, shotgun, boltgun, melta.

Could use elctrodisplcament to get the beacon in place to allow for multiple charges to happen as well

I'm sure there is some other combos one could pull to achieve similar/more effective tactics to ones used pre faq.

Really disheartened to get kicked like this in a game with such savage oversights and balance issues. It's not like the "issues" were the cornerstone of any Imperial Deathstars etc.

Veterans with both shotgun and bolter (for free) was plain ridiculous. If I ever got into a game and my opponent told me his marines were equipped this way I would seriously think of dropping the game right now as it would most probably go in a direction I wouldn't enjoy. BTW, I do play deathwatch (though I'm in the middle of building them so haven't tested them yet on the battlefield) and got to admit that, yes there options seems far too limited

This in the same game where Eldar Troops pump out 4 shots at 3 feet each. At least Deathwatch need to engage.

 Eldarain wrote:
This in the same game where Eldar Troops pump out 4 shots at 3 feet each. At least Deathwatch need to engage.

Oh, I'm not saying it was OP or anything. Just that it felt ridiculous and was obviously against the writer's intent.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Sadly no.
Options for HQ mounts are almost non existant, very few -if any- Kill Teams are comprised completely of fast models. In their own kill teams they just feel so clumsy.

As an ally the Deathwatch are downright beastly.

Thank you for the answer. Would you tell me what you allied them with?

Deathwatch pretty much have precisely one competetive choice; spamming Frag Cannons in Drop Pods.
Yeah, it sucks.

The Bolter/Shotgun nerf was unnescessary and annoying, but predictable. The Guardian Spear thing was already pretty clear. Everything else, though?
The Beacon Angelis didn't need a nerf. The HTH sucks on a regular veteran. The loss of dedicated transports for Kill Teams is ridiculous.



Aaaaaaugh. Frustration.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Deathwatch pretty much have precisely one competetive choice; spamming Frag Cannons in Drop Pods.
Yeah, it sucks.

The Bolter/Shotgun nerf was unnescessary and annoying, but predictable. The Guardian Spear thing was already pretty clear. Everything else, though?
The Beacon Angelis didn't need a nerf. The HTH sucks on a regular veteran. The loss of dedicated transports for Kill Teams is ridiculous.



Aaaaaaugh. Frustration.

I feel the same way, yes. Pure Veteran squads with 4 frags, couple of shotgun/combimelta guys, 1-2 bolter/stormshield guys preventing instadeath from low ap weapons + a libby. That times 3 in a pod, 1-2 killteams in blackstars, a few random lone vanguards with hammers as distraction carnifex and for tank hunting.

Does that sound ok? (Except i might be tabled because all i get to put on the table before my first turn are like 3 Vanguards)

At least combi-bolter/shotgun seems safe from the FAQ. The transport makes no sense to me. why even include the exemption in every single formation about it not being counted towards the 10 model max count, if you are not even allowed to take it?

I bought $300 in Deathwatch the weekend before the FAQ came out. I feel your pain.

I think CAD is the only way to go with DW. You might be able to get away with one kill team with a CAD, but that's it.

I've been looking at a 5-man bike unit with power mauls. They get special ammo on the bike bolters, 3+ jink saves and they are str 6 on assault. Not bad for 175pts

A long shot might be a 5-man terminator squad with thunder hammer, storm shield and cyclone missile each. They get 2+/3++ saves and 10 krak missile shots at 48". This squad is 350pts, but it is unique. Almost like an Iron Warrior Tyrant squad for 30k.

Morkphoiz wrote:
- Bolter/Shotgun combo got illegalized even though the rules in the Codex CLEARLY allow it.

I totally expected that to get nerfed as it was an obvious mistake. However, I expected an actual errata instead of just bizarrely disallowing one specific weapon combo (you can still have a bolter and a stalker bolter, for example.) And of course this whole thing would be way less of problem if they would just have pistols like the normal marines.

- Kill teams cannot get dedicated Transports any more, so drop pod alpha is a whole lot weaker now.

That is indeed an utterly mindboggling ruling and pretty much kills the kill teams unless you use the deep strike detachment. One thing you can do is use the Deathwatch detachment in the Imperial Agents. That way you can get the aquila doctrine and a transport.

- Watchmaster cannot shoot&assault with his Guardian Spear anymore because the attached Bolter is a rapid fire weapon. Really. Someone at GW just figured that out. (seriously, whats the use of that "able to fire the gun and use the spear in assault"-rule then? In the FAQ they rabble about "in the event the Model gains the Relentless special rule...." well, except it wont because a Watchmaster has zero options. Do they actually think about stuff before they write it?)

He never could shoot and assault. It is stupidly designed weapon though. I recommend giving him the Banebolts, those have the assault type.

- Black Shields and Sergeants can't use Heavy Thunder Hammers. Which makes me sad.

They never could.

Also: Deathwatch cannot use ANY ForgeWorld Vehicle right now. They'd need it. Badly.

This is indeed annoying and doubly so as FW released a promo picture ages ago implying that they'd give DW access to some marine vehicles. But they never did. I mean how hard it is to make a PDF listing models the can take?

Problem is in my gaming group i'll be fighting tau optimized stealth cadres, necrons and one of em just started eldar. Its okay to me to not always win but hell, I wont play to lose. What can I do to make my poor little beakies be functional? Ally with AM for some tanks and cheap bodies? Ally with Inquisition?

Ally with Knights.

I also am still quite confused about the way the Kill Teams and Dedicated Transport question is asked and answered:

Q: It’s not specifically stated that anything other than Veterans can take a Dedicated Transport. The assumption is that all Kill Team combinations,Terminator units, etc. can take a Dedicated Transport within the limitations dictated by the types of model in the squad. Is this correct?
A: No, but you can select Transports as Fast Attack
options, for example, if you like.

To me that doesnt clarify anything at all because the Question is just awkward.

Kill teams cannot take Dedicated Transports. That, by itself, does not prohibit the Veteran squad, which is part of the Kill Team, to take a Dedicated Transport. The Formation itself doesnt have that option and it never had it but the Kill Team rules are:

You take several seperate units from the codex, they get combined, they count as one unit, they may not exceed 10 models (excluding dedicated transports)

Do you get my point? There is not a single word about Veterans not being able to buy their Transport. The FAQ just prohibits "all Kill Team combinations,Terminator units, etc." to take them.
Its nowhere stated the Veteran Squad cannot use their Option to take a DT if part of a Kill Team. The rules do not remove options from units which get combined to form a Kill Team.

Also: A little further down in the FAQ this Question pops up

Q: Can a unit of Veterans that is part of a Kill Team take a
Dedicated Transport for themselves if it can’t carry the other
members of the Kill Team?
A: No.

To my understanding that equals:

Q: Can a unit of Veterans that is part of a Kill Team take a
Dedicated Transport if it can carry the other members of
the Kill team?
A: Yes.


Thoughts?

I emailed them my concerns about the transport ruling. One of my points was that each formation states the dedicated transport does not count towards the 10 unit limit. Each formation entry states this in their own box. So it wasn't a slip up that they "accidently" added that portion to it. If they stated that the transport must be able to take all passengers(essentially only the blackstar) then that would make sense.
Every formation that is limited to 10 models max can be loaded into a blackstar without the FAQ. With the FAQ only one of them can be used, the first one. Just seems odd that they would write off all but one of their formations to include a blackstar transport option. They state that you can buy one as a fast attack option, but that would mean CAD only, and no formations.

Morkphoiz wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Sadly no.
Options for HQ mounts are almost non existant, very few -if any- Kill Teams are comprised completely of fast models. In their own kill teams they just feel so clumbsy.

As an ally the Deathwatch are downright beastly.

Thank you for the answer. Would you tell me what you allied them with?

I allied them as a CAD for the Space Wolves Drakeslayers.
1x Libby
2x Vets with Drop Pods
2x Solo Vanguard Vets with HTH
1x Squad of five Vanguard Vets loaded for melee
2x Solo Bikers with PowerLances
1x Blackstar

1st opponent was Tau, he was yammering something about Space Wolves being nothing without TWC or Wulfen until the start of my first turn Murderfang landed in a Lucius pod, and stayed embarked, my Longfang Pyro Squad dropped out of sight and Krom with a minimal squad of Bloodclaws Drop Podded onto an objective and ATE a whole round of EWO - took one wound that turn and only one wound the entire game. Wyrdstorm brutalized with Tempestas powers but the surprise was the Libby who nabbed both Forewarning and Scrier's Gaze and popped them both from three dice.
My opponent tunnel visioned like an idiot and turned his entire second turn of shooting at Krom, he was the Warlord after all, Dragongaze has 3+ and 4++ but in his Great Company he can reroll all failed saves within 3' of an objective and the more he saved the more the fool shot at him.
Back to my turn the Deathwatch Pods arrived along with the Blackstar and both LandSpeeders, while Krom was being an attention whore the arriving units didn't get pegged by the EWO and the small, fast Deathwatch units made even Tau co-operative overwatch clunky.
Boardwiped him on the third turn.
Krom aside the Deathwatch small units really made my opponent sweat.

Second game I got Ultramarines running a Libby Conclave. He tried to use invisibility but the sheer number of Librarians I had said "No" I got Scryer's Gaze again but no Forewarning. He Dropped a bloody Culexus Assassin on top of my Wyrdstorm, nullifying them. My Deathwatch Libby got the Gaze to bring in everything from reserves including the Blackstar which eliminated the Assassin then spent the rest of the game popping in and out of reserves, it only shot three times but it hurt the Ultramarines badly every time. Still went to the bottom of the sixth to get a win. The rest of the game was pretty even, the Libby and Blackstar won that game.

Third game was against Necrons. The Deathwatch small, fast units made their points back every turn - The Cron's player was smarter than the Tau player and far more patient but when the flying HTH VVs and Bikes cut down three vehicles and the warlord in one turn the tide just went my way.
We shook and I made a poor judgement call to stamp out his post-game handshake stunt, took out two tables and a heap of expensive terrain and we both got removed from the last two games. 35pt and 55pt units that are truly threatening to everything force players to make decisions that they wouldn't make against normal armies.

Morkphoiz wrote:

Thoughts?

Yeah, I agree with you that they didn't mean to ban the transports. That question is just a mess.

I have stated before that I run my list around the old Kantor drop pods list I used to run. People also seem to forget you can kill team 10 man vet squads. MSU is the way to go. Lots of targets that are all bad and need to die force your opponent to waste a whole squads shots on a single dude. VV with THSS power weapons on vets is a waste as they are over priced. Lots of rules feth ups my digital codex doesn't have the heavy weapons list in it. My suggestion is to remember how flexible theses guys are and have a day with a buddy trying different builds to see what works best for you. Also The FW pic is not official rules just a suggestion. Lame I know. Fun thing though is now you can load up bikes on a land raider 5 in a crusader I think. That's a neat little surprise.