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How do?

So hypothetical came up down the pub.

Guy at my club plays a Greentide. So far, he's done really well with it. I got my brain to work to consider how as a Mechanicus player I might try to deal with such a sodding great lump of Orks. And I had an idea.

First off, I'd like to make clear I do not, by any stretch of the imagination, consider this to be a fool proof no-brainer. It's gonna take timing, cunning and a smidge of skill.

What I know
The guy like to keep them spread out, and the maximum 2" between models. He also fields a Painboy to give them FnP (and why wouldn't you!). But, for reasons unknown, only adds a single Nob with Powerklaw. So adding in the mandatory Warboss, there's only two Powerklaws. And the two heavy hitters he tends to keep fairly central.

What I want to try.
Running the numbers, it's pretty clear I stand little to no chance of wiping that unit out. There's just too many of them (even with Radium) to deal with.

But, what I can do is tie him up indefinitely. Enter....Sydonian Dragoons. These seem like a good counter. Quite punchy in combat, ridiculously cheap, and best of all? AV 11 all round, so his basic Boyz cannot damage them. And that's the important part.

I'm thinking sink 180 measly points into two units of two. I deploy them at the far ends of the board, as far forward as I dare risk. From there, they leg it up the extreme flanks, and charge that horrific mass of flesh. Once I'm 'safely' in combat, it seems I begin to control the board - especially if I get up there fast enough to prevent him moving far away from his deployment zone.

Being largely immune to his attacks, he's then forced to start splitting that Greentide, as he has to pile in. And give his penchant for spreading out as much as possible, that's where I really benefit.

His careful 2" spacing goes out the window, and in theory an ever widening gap appears. That he then has to surround the Dragoons as completely as possible also shuts other units out of combat - especially as I'll (quite deliberately) lack the attacks to make much of a dent. His Greentide then essentially becomes Bubble Wrap, protecting my Dragoons from interference - and quite possibly locking the same unit's Powerklaws out of the combat entirely (that of course depends entirely upon where they are to begin with)

But, even I can't keep the Powerklaws at bay indefinitely, I've still opened up a split between the unit. So should my Dragoons eventually go to meet the Omnissiah, he has no choice but to get back into unit coherency as quickly as possible - restricting his further movement.

And the two ongoing combats also block his LoS - so anything following the Boyz has to take the long way round. Terrain depending, I can then deploy the rest of my force focussed toward the centre (where the gap will open up), theoretically allowing the bulk of my force (1,850 sized game) to deal with the rest of his army piecemeal.

Whaddya think? Am I missing anything blindingly obvious here?

I know you don't think you kill that many, but have you really run the math on Vanguard shooting at the unit? Pretty damn sickening I'd think.

Otherwise Dragoons will hit hard on that charge and keep the unit from doing much.

It's the FnP that's, excuse the pun, a right pain to deal with.

What I'd like to try though is with the chance for a central mass to my force, pouring on the Radium Carbines to his centre, to get the gap opened up immediately before the Dragoons charge in - the wider I can make that initial gap, then, so the theory goes, the better I disrupt his plans (and potentially expose that sodding Painboy!) plus, with some Rangers, I've at least got a chance to snipe out either the Painboy or the Nob...


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Ooh....another thought occurs.

If I'm lucky. As in, really lucky, he'll finally kill off the Dragoons just as the rest of his force makes its way down the gap.....

In theory, his Killa Kans and Deff Dreads could find themselves slap bang in the middle of the Greentide, with no easy way back out....

Now to think how I might capitalise on such an occurrence....

If you're using Rangers you should definitely be shooting for Precision Shots.

I know you have at least one way of reducing toughness in that codex (can't remember it), but do you have two or can you stack them. Making the horde T2 and then smacking it to hell and back with gallons of S4+ fire (no FNP's and with doctrines hitting and wounding on 2's) if you can mitigate any cover saves with phosphor weapons, you'd probably mulch them pretty quick.

That is reliant on being able to drop T by 2, which I if you can actually do or not

Toughness drop is CC only.

Yeah, and somehow I don't think my Skitarii would last long in a punch up

So from my theorising, this plan seems to work only if objectives are favourable. If I can get across the board fast enough, it might stymie his movement for most of the game - and given it'll be Maelstrom, that works quite nicely for me. (He's tournament practicing, I'm there to give him an interesting challenge)

He also fields a Killbursta, but I reckon I can take that just with my regular stuff (I'm fielding the combined Mechanicus, so lots and lots of Haywire)


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Potential backup plan as well...

Sicarian Infiltrators, Princeps equipped with St Curia's Autopurger from Fall of Cadia.

All models in any unit Locked in Combat with the Bearer must take a I test at the I10 step. The unit suffers one wound (saves allowed) for each failed test....

And of course, being in a unit of Infiltrators....his I is reduced....

Can you snipe out the painboy with a vindicare assassin? I don't have any assassins so I'm not familiar with their rules but I saw once a vindicare assassin that killed the painboy in a green tide with a precision shot. If it's legal that's a good way to deal with the tide.

As an ork player I'd never go with the tide, you could have a lot of more trouble against a list full of fast MSU units and tre units of lootas in the opponent's backfield. The green tide is extremely slow, costs half the list at 1850 and lacks obj sec, it's not that difficult to manage it You can also lock it in combat for 3ish turns, as the pks usually take 1-2 additiional turns of piling in move to have the chance to strike.

Potentially, I think so.

Except the sod has a 2+ Look Out Sir save.

Opponent's usual plan is to just use it as a rolling barrier to sweep across objectives, and provided a near impenetrable barrier to me.

It's definitely the Locking Out I'm going for - without PK's in range, he can't even tickle my Dragoons.

The back up is a way to really spank the unit horribly - bundle in, set off the Radiation Bomb, and giggle as he removes a massive swathe of the unit in the first round of combat.

And if I stick a second unit of Infiltrators in....I could reduce large chunks to I1, making the trick more potent.

Hmmmm....perhaps bring them in later, once Pile In has got them bunched up, for maximum -1 Initiative?

I think the Vindicare Assasin adds +2 to Look out sir rolls so the opponent should have a 4+ LOS roll for the painboy. Furthemore he aways wounds on a 2+ regardless of the target's toughness, he's AP2, and ignores any invuln and cover saves, against vehicles his shot is a single s10 hit, against infantries cause D3 wounds and he's BS8. 72 inches range. I need to double check all his stats but I think I remember correctly.

Nice....I've got one as well, thanks to Execution force.

Might need a copy of Imperial Agents!

Nvm read Mechanicus in Op post missed, skitarii in Title my bad.

True - but I'm mostly looking at board control here - I'm not into Tournaments myself, but this is me trying to give him something tricky to deal with, theory being it'll give him a new experience to think is way round.

Kataphron will likely be pointed at his Killbursta

Though I should have more than enough Arc weapons to plink off that bad boy's hull points. If I watch my own spacing, I can mitigate its own offence. With luck, I'll have dealt with that in good time so when his Kans and Deff Dreads come waddling along, they're also getting a lot of haywire to the face.

I know he's also fond of deep striking Deffkoptas, but hey - they're nothing I can deal with, and his Rokkits should lack decent targets, as I don't plan on taking many vehicles at all - and by the time they come down, my Dragoons should be safely bubble wrapped in flailing Ork Boyz.

Plan really depends on getting his movement fethed up and restricted before he get to cross much of the board.


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And I'm using the Fall of Cadia list


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Could also be a complete bellend, and field a Haemotrope Reactor to soup up my Kataphron. 12 Large blast Plasma shots each turn....

But I'm not a bellend, so I shan't.

With my Skitarii I run x12 Sydonian Dragoons in squads of x2 or x3 with great success, especially against Orks.

Something I'm fond of is a Sicarian Kill-Clade v. Orks.

They don't expect you to charge them. They just don't expect it! It can be hilariously effective, when done right.

As a rules question....

Am I correct in thinking that through clever application of firepower, I can force him to take casualties to the point where his Painboy is no longer with 2", thus not part of the unit, stripping away FnP from that point on?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As a rules question....

Am I correct in thinking that through clever application of firepower, I can force him to take casualties to the point where his Painboy is no longer with 2", thus not part of the unit, stripping away FnP from that point on?

Not really from rules perspective the Painboy it's part of the unit as IC, he may end out of coherency if you kill nearby orcs but will remain as part of the unit until the beginning of his turn when he will be able to regain coherency or just move him out of the unit.

Only loophole is if you kill ALL of the unit orcs and the Painboy still left, then he'll become a one unit model at the start of the next phase but as long a single orc remains he's just out of coherency nothing else.

Fair enough.

Shall just have to isolate him, then shoot him while he's missing Look Out Sir.

Aside from your absolutely genius plan (commendations for that), I take it you'll be backing it up by a line of Kataphrons behind a Prometheium pipe, giving their flamers Torrent?
A damn fierce field of death comes from that, as if the Kataphrons didn't deal enough death already.

(Only 40 points for 7 pipe sections; a definite worth in my book).

The more I learn about his army, the easier the time I think I'm gonna have*.

The Greentide weighs in around 700ish (depending on upgrades, could be 800ish). And his Killbursta is 400. With that in mind, he's then got around 750 or so to spend on other stuff.

He typically takes the rest as a Battle Forge list, so he can get Objective Secured, using weedy Grots.

If the whole plan comes together, and with a bit extra luck to Rad Bomb him with the Relic (really need to take out the Painboy on that one), there's a decent chance I can actually break his Greentide, and run it down before he gets to grips with the Dragoons. If I can free them up, they might prove the very dab for roflstomping said Grots, stripping his objectives.

Hmmm,....

*All terrain dependant....if his Greentide is forced to be bunched up, it won't work so well...

Just use infiltrators alone.
A 10 man squad with the omniscient mask could take them on handily.

10*4 attacks. 6.666 Taser hits (20 hits)
20 other hits.
another 8.888 hits (+2 from taser) after zealot rerolls.

Total 50 hits (rounding down)

Wounding on 2's (rerolling 1's if princeps is warlord)
48 wounds (rounding down)
~27 dead orks after 6+/5+++.

Probably killing the orks out of range to swing back.


If the orks get unlocked from combat due to range, and get to attack.

73 sluggas, (4 wounds , 2 dead infiltrators)

Overwatch, 8*5, 40 shots, 7 hits, 2 wounds, 1 dead ork.

Orks charge, Infiltrators swing first.

8*3 = 24 attacks
12 hits (taser) 12 hits (regular) +8 hits (zealot reroll)

32 hits, 31 wounds
15 dead orks. (43 total)

Tonnes of orks dead, number bumbs up to 64.5 if you have a vanguard squad engaged, (S6 vs T3)

 Blackie wrote:
I think the Vindicare Assasin adds +2 to Look out sir rolls so the opponent should have a 4+ LOS roll for the painboy. Furthemore he aways wounds on a 2+ regardless of the target's toughness, he's AP2, and ignores any invuln and cover saves, against vehicles his shot is a single s10 hit, against infantries cause D3 wounds and he's BS8. 72 inches range. I need to double check all his stats but I think I remember correctly.

Not quite. He wounds on 2+, OR he causes D3 wounds. Not both. If you choose to cause D3 wounds, then he's wounding on a 4+.

Other than that, you've got it right.


Also, a minor problem with your plan: Me and my LGS have spent a lot of time looking at the rules for close combat, and after over an hour of four of us poring over the rulebook, we're all pretty certain that, when in combat, you don't actually break unit coherency. The rules are confusing and seem a bit contradictory, but after some careful re-reading, I'm pretty certain that they would move until they were incapable of moving anymore without losing coherency - The only way that Coherency would break is if the models in the middle were killed (By a third attacking unit, or a random scattering attack), and in that case...
Well, at that point the rules kind of break, because you're supposed to move models backwards to stay in coherency, but you're also not supposed to move models out of combat. If someone is in base-to-base with an enemy model, they are required to stay there. I really don't know what the intended solution is.


Aaaanywhoo, though, taking Cawl or the right formation so that you can get access to that one Relic that forces Toughness Tests is probably the best way to go. If you can combine that with something to reduce toughness like you've suggested, then his army is going to crumple.

Or, you could be a complete and total butthole, ally in 4 Xenos Inquisitors with Rad Grenades, split them up in the movement phase just before you're going to charge, have a fifth party eat the Overwatch, then charge and kill his Ork Boys, Nob, and Painboy without striking a single blow. (As long as they charge separately, the negative Toughness from Rad Grenades stacks.)

Now starting to consider the rest of my army.

As a long lapsed gamer, I'm kind of winging this! Reckon six Breachers though - four will have the Heavy Arc Rifle, the other two Torsion Cannons (because I'd dearly love to Chinese Burn/Indian Burn a Warboss into submission)

I have got six other Kataphron, but they're all Plasma Culverin....which is funny, but possibly a bit much against Orkses? Not that Grav Cannon are much better though....

I can field up to three units of Vanguard, with a mix of special weapons, one unit of Rangers with three Arqueba...and 20, yes 20, Secutarii Peltasts which are bloody hilarious.

Reckon I might pack a Knight in as well. Because I can.


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The four Inquisitor route does sound funny, but I'm hoping to give him food for thought, rather than a bad taste

I'd include an IK such as a Paladin or Crusader with the dual S8 blast vs infantry and tanks.

Definitely.

I've got a Crusader all painted up and ready to go

Or I can be aright penis, and field my Ordinatus Sagittarius (which isn't as good as I hoped, stupid hull mounted weapons on a well long chassis)


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Waaaghpower wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I think the Vindicare Assasin adds +2 to Look out sir rolls so the opponent should have a 4+ LOS roll for the painboy. Furthemore he aways wounds on a 2+ regardless of the target's toughness, he's AP2, and ignores any invuln and cover saves, against vehicles his shot is a single s10 hit, against infantries cause D3 wounds and he's BS8. 72 inches range. I need to double check all his stats but I think I remember correctly.

Not quite. He wounds on 2+, OR he causes D3 wounds. Not both. If you choose to cause D3 wounds, then he's wounding on a 4+.

Other than that, you've got it right.


Also, a minor problem with your plan: Me and my LGS have spent a lot of time looking at the rules for close combat, and after over an hour of four of us poring over the rulebook, we're all pretty certain that, when in combat, you don't actually break unit coherency. The rules are confusing and seem a bit contradictory, but after some careful re-reading, I'm pretty certain that they would move until they were incapable of moving anymore without losing coherency - The only way that Coherency would break is if the models in the middle were killed (By a third attacking unit, or a random scattering attack), and in that case...
Well, at that point the rules kind of break, because you're supposed to move models backwards to stay in coherency, but you're also not supposed to move models out of combat. If someone is in base-to-base with an enemy model, they are required to stay there. I really don't know what the intended solution is.


Aaaanywhoo, though, taking Cawl or the right formation so that you can get access to that one Relic that forces Toughness Tests is probably the best way to go. If you can combine that with something to reduce toughness like you've suggested, then his army is going to crumple.

Or, you could be a complete and total butthole, ally in 4 Xenos Inquisitors with Rad Grenades, split them up in the movement phase just before you're going to charge, have a fifth party eat the Overwatch, then charge and kill his Ork Boys, Nob, and Painboy without striking a single blow. (As long as they charge separately, the negative Toughness from Rad Grenades stacks.)

I'm fairly sure the rules for Pile In overrule those of maintaining coherency? The coherency rule on page 18 specifically states that coherency can be broken during the game, and gives incoming fire casualties as the most common (because few units are anywhere near large enough for my Dragoon Drag* shenanigans to actually work on) rather than a definitive 'only time possible'. Pile In being a compulsory move with its own parameters would seem to provide another exception?



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Hold up. Will raise it in YMDC (sorry!)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Now starting to consider the rest of my army.

As a long lapsed gamer, I'm kind of winging this! Reckon six Breachers though - four will have the Heavy Arc Rifle, the other two Torsion Cannons (because I'd dearly love to Chinese Burn/Indian Burn a Warboss into submission)

I have got six other Kataphron, but they're all Plasma Culverin....which is funny, but possibly a bit much against Orkses? Not that Grav Cannon are much better though....

I can field up to three units of Vanguard, with a mix of special weapons, one unit of Rangers with three Arqueba...and 20, yes 20, Secutarii Peltasts which are bloody hilarious.

Reckon I might pack a Knight in as well. Because I can.


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The four Inquisitor route does sound funny, but I'm hoping to give him food for thought, rather than a bad taste

Imho if you are using Kataphrons i suggest try at least 3x Destroyers with Heavy grav cannons and Cognis flamers, also add if can afford the promethium pipes for extra lulz.

The heavy Grav Cannons, while not the best to deal with orcs have concussive wich forces them to strike at Init 1 wich is a bane for melee units , you get 3x Templates on the poor Orcs before they can charge, (maybe twice use with promethium pipes and torrent) and if the Kataphrons are charged the flamers always cause 3 hits each , wich may burn most of the frontline orcs and make him fail the charge. After all the Kataphrons may strike first and with str 5 and T 5 and 2 W may hold the orcs a couple of turns or make a difference.