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If Jaghatai Khan got trapped in the webway with Ynnead and returned as a Daemon Primarch of Ynnead.

Yes, it makes sense considering all the Daemons of Khaine, Daemons of Cegorach and Daemons of Isha we have seen.

Oh wait.

Well then maybe he'll just have some kind of a gift, work with me.

No. Considering what you've brought to work with doesn't even exist in lore.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes, it makes sense considering all the Daemons of Khaine, Daemons of Cegorach and Daemons of Isha we have seen..

What Daemons of Cegorach and Isha? I'm only familiar with the Khaine daemon, the Avatar of War.

I'd rather see him come back with some sort of Dark Eldar mind-control device grafted (very painfully) into his brain as some sort of twisted Haemonculus-created Pain Engine LoW.

Yeah. That would be fun

nareik wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes, it makes sense considering all the Daemons of Khaine, Daemons of Cegorach and Daemons of Isha we have seen..

What Daemons of Cegorach and Isha? I'm only familiar with the Khaine daemon, the Avatar of War.

The Avatar is not a Daemon of Khaine as such; it is a literal fragment of Khaine incarnated in an Exarch body.

There are no daemons of Cegorach of Isha, nor any true Khaine daemons, which is my point.

There are however daemons of slaanesh. So just join team pink marines and have some fun there ; )

 Ashiraya wrote:

nareik wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes, it makes sense considering all the Daemons of Khaine, Daemons of Cegorach and Daemons of Isha we have seen..

What Daemons of Cegorach and Isha? I'm only familiar with the Khaine daemon, the Avatar of War.

The Avatar is not a Daemon of Khaine as such; it is a literal fragment of Khaine incarnated in an Exarch body.

There are no daemons of Cegorach of Isha, nor any true Khaine daemons, which is my point.

The thing to remember is that the process for creating a daemon is a Chaos God splits off a fragment of their power and imbues it with intelligence.

What happened to Khaine basically amounts to an extreme version of that, where his power was fractured so many times he lost cohesion as a single entity*.

Avatars very literally are Greater Daemons of Khaine.

You're right about the other two though.

Interestingly, this hints at a way it might be possible to defeat a Chaos God. Force them into a position where they have to create so many greater daemons they lose cohesion. Of course, then you've got billions of Bloodthirsters to deal with, but hey it's something right?

An avatar is like an extreme daemonhost. It's a physical Eldar infused with a fraction of the power and drives of Khaine. It's not a pure warp entity or daemon.

It is not inconceivable that an Eldar God (Cegorach or Ynnead) could bind a fraction of their power in the same way to Jaghatai's body, or even raise him to daemonhood in the same manner as any of the Chaos Gods do their champions.Whether he would want it or any of them would do it is another matter altogether.

I suspect if Cegorach was inclined to do such things, he would have done it long a time ago. I would hypothesize that the Black Library is Cegorach's created realm in the same way that the Big 4 each have their own place in their Warp, and that the crystal he bequeathed Malys was some variant of his 'blessing' in the same way manner as they bestow. But he seems far less inclined generally to gift his power about like them. I suspect that's because he has a limited amount of it compared to the Big 4, and so cannot risk subdividing it very far. Not to mention that any Eldar he raised to 'daemonhood' in the same way would just end up having to hide out in the Webway with him (since neither could risk hanging around the warp where Slaanesh can get at them).

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Interestingly, this hints at a way it might be possible to defeat a Chaos God. Force them into a position where they have to create so many greater daemons they lose cohesion. Of course, then you've got billions of Bloodthirsters to deal with, but hey it's something right?

Some among the Grey Knigfhts view Tesseracht Labyrinthes as a potential method to permanently defeat Chaos. Imprisoned Daemons wouldn't be able to return to the Warp so it would be a permanent depletion of the deity.

 Ketara wrote:
An avatar is like an extreme daemonhost. It's a physical Eldar infused with a fraction of the power and drives of Khaine. It's not a pure warp entity or daemon.

It is not inconceivable that an Eldar God (Cegorach or Ynnead) could bind a fraction of their power in the same way to Jaghatai's body, or even raise him to daemonhood in the same manner as any of the Chaos Gods do their champions.Whether he would want it or any of them would do it is another matter altogether.

I suspect if Cegorach was inclined to do such things, he would have done it long a time ago. I would hypothesize that the Black Library is Cegorach's created realm in the same way that the Big 4 each have their own place in their Warp, and that the crystal he bequeathed Malys was some variant of his 'blessing' in the same way manner as they bestow. But he seems far less inclined generally to gift his power about like them. I suspect that's because he has a limited amount of it compared to the Big 4, and so cannot risk subdividing it very far. Not to mention that any Eldar he raised to 'daemonhood' in the same way would just end up having to hide out in the Webway with him (since neither could risk hanging around the warp where Slaanesh can get at them).

While i do agree that an avatar isn't quite the same as a greater daemon, it's probably closer to a Daemon Weapon than a Daemonhost. When dormant they're colossal iron statues that sit in a throne at the heart of a craftworld. The Eldar part comes with the sacrifice of the Young King to awaken them. Really, none of them are a perfect description though...

I do wonder what would happen if say Khorne was split into a billion bloodletters and then banished from the warp what the mechanics would be. Perhaps something neat like they leave a corpse and if blood is spilt on them they resurrect...

I definitely agree that the eldar gods could probably pull the same tricks as the chaos ones if they so desired/had the power to do so. Perhaps in the dim and distant past they did.

I think he'd never do it to Khan though. Eldar are supremacists first and foremost after all

Well, what are the known facts? An Avatar is a fragment of Khaine's power. It requires a physical body before it activates. This is unlikely to be purely as a sacrifice, as the body vanishes afterwards. So the odds are, that it merges with the Avatar. We know that the Avatar does run out of juice after a period of time though. The most likely reason for this is the expiration of the host soul/body which merges with the Avatar; it can only survive as the conduit for Khaine for so long.

Putting the pieces together then, it would appear likely that the Avatar shell itself just holds the ability to connect to one of Khaine's shards in the warp, but requires the Eldar host within the body in order to maintain its active state. It's a bit like a super-powerful Dreadnought that gradually absorbs/destroys the pilot. Once he's dead, there's no-one left to keep directing it (since even if Khaine's power has survived his mind has not) or a soul to complete the conduit to Khaine's power.

Yep I can absolutely see that being how it works

It would also explain why the Eldar generally aren't jumping up and down to volunteer, as you're opting to have your soul incinerated totally instead of tucked away in a nice soul stone.

 Ketara wrote:
It would also explain why the Eldar generally aren't jumping up and down to volunteer, as you're opting to have your soul incinerated totally instead of tucked away in a nice soul stone.

She who thirsts doesnt get it.

 Exergy wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
It would also explain why the Eldar generally aren't jumping up and down to volunteer, as you're opting to have your soul incinerated totally instead of tucked away in a nice soul stone.

She who thirsts doesnt get it.

Sure, but given:

A: Get put into infinity circuit for eternity with mum and dad,
B: Get leisurely eaten by an evil God who was the death of your species, or
C: Get your soul incinerated through channeling the power of a God until nothing remains of it

I reckon most people will plump for A. I mean, C might not be as bad as B, but it's still not what you'd be hoping for, y'know?

Alternatively, he could have fought against Ynnead and something odd could have come of it.

In fact, there needs to be a saga of Jaghatai Khan's odyssey through the webway. I'd buy that. It starts with him managing to hijack a Dark Eldar vehicle, he runs into Cegorach or Ynnead, they try to kill him but he ends up escaping, but maybe with curse of some kind. Come to think of it, I feel like between the two of them Cegorach would be more likely to play some kind of trick on him as it were. So maybe Cegorach gives him some kind of a gift that he didn't ask for, maybe it's bound to him, maybe he's made aware that he needs it, and then he uses it to survive in Commoragh. And that could last for however long, maybe the full 10,000 years but I'd honestly expect a Primarch (especially one with some kind of gift) to make it back to realspace first.

So maybe he encountered a very early Ynnead. Maybe he tried to kill it, but it killed him, but since Ynnead is the god of death it revived him as another Emissary. Is there a rule that says Ynnead can only have 1 Emissary?

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'd rather see him come back with some sort of Dark Eldar mind-control device grafted (very painfully) into his brain as some sort of twisted Haemonculus-created Pain Engine LoW.

Yeah. That would be fun

Maybe to you, most of the rest of us would roll our eyes and weap for an intreasting character turned into Angron 2.0

 Ashiraya wrote:

nareik wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes, it makes sense considering all the Daemons of Khaine, Daemons of Cegorach and Daemons of Isha we have seen..

What Daemons of Cegorach and Isha? I'm only familiar with the Khaine daemon, the Avatar of War.

The Avatar is not a Daemon of Khaine as such; it is a literal fragment of Khaine incarnated in an Exarch body.

There are no daemons of Cegorach of Isha, nor any true Khaine daemons, which is my point.

It has been described as a deamon in various sources. Besides, all daemons are fragments of their Gods.


Admittedly it isn't a being purely created from/by the god, it is more like a possessed being or a daemon prince. Or daemon host as you say.

 Ketara wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
It would also explain why the Eldar generally aren't jumping up and down to volunteer, as you're opting to have your soul incinerated totally instead of tucked away in a nice soul stone.

She who thirsts doesnt get it.

Sure, but given:

A: Get put into infinity circuit for eternity with mum and dad,
B: Get leisurely eaten by an evil God who was the death of your species, or
C: Get your soul incinerated through channeling the power of a God until nothing remains of it

I reckon most people will plump for A. I mean, C might not be as bad as B, but it's still not what you'd be hoping for, y'know?

D. Live forever while rejuvenating your soul with the pain and suffering of others.

DE are sounding more rational every day.

 Ashiraya wrote:

nareik wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes, it makes sense considering all the Daemons of Khaine, Daemons of Cegorach and Daemons of Isha we have seen..

What Daemons of Cegorach and Isha? I'm only familiar with the Khaine daemon, the Avatar of War.

The Avatar is not a Daemon of Khaine as such; it is a literal fragment of Khaine incarnated in an Exarch body.

There are no daemons of Cegorach of Isha, nor any true Khaine daemons, which is my point.

Yennead wraith is correct in his correction of you're first sentence.

But Ashirya is correct in the second sentence. As far as i can remember reading the Eldar gods never created Daemon-esque creatures despite having that power and authority. Raises a great question as to why that is.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'd rather see him come back with some sort of Dark Eldar mind-control device grafted (very painfully) into his brain as some sort of twisted Haemonculus-created Pain Engine LoW.

Yeah. That would be fun

Maybe to you, most of the rest of us would roll our eyes and weap for an intreasting character turned into Angron 2.0

I always did think Angron was one of the more compelling Primarchs...

It'd be better than Khan for some ludicrous reason deciding that he's going to worship a xenos warp-entity that they call a God.

It'd be like the Templars allying with xenos...hang on...oh goddamnit!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 husker98 wrote:

Yennead wraith is correct in his correction of you're first sentence.

But Ashirya is correct in the second sentence. As far as i can remember reading the Eldar gods never created Daemon-esque creatures despite having that power and authority. Raises a great question as to why that is.

Correct. There's no solid evidence of Eldar Gods producing daemons.

That's not to say they can't, or didn't, but there's no evidence for it. The only possible thing I can come up with is Morai-Heg's 'daughters', the Banshees, which she sent to hound Khaine. They could possibly refer to ancient Eldar God daemons, but it's very tenuous and hardly conclusive.

It depends really on the nature of the Eldar Gods. There's one theory espoused somewhere in the fluff (must find a source) that the Eldar Gods are actually amalgamations of Eldar-spawned weapons of war from the war against the Necrons. If that's the case, then the Eldar Gods may in fact be amalgamations of lesser daemons, sort of using the reverse of the process by which Chaos Gods create lesser daemons.

That's, again, tenuous.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'd rather see him come back with some sort of Dark Eldar mind-control device grafted (very painfully) into his brain as some sort of twisted Haemonculus-created Pain Engine LoW.

Yeah. That would be fun

Maybe to you, most of the rest of us would roll our eyes and weap for an intreasting character turned into Angron 2.0

I always did think Angron was one of the more compelling Primarchs...

It'd be better than Khan for some ludicrous reason deciding that he's going to worship a xenos warp-entity that they call a God.

It'd be like the Templars allying with xenos...hang on...oh goddamnit!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 husker98 wrote:

Yennead wraith is correct in his correction of you're first sentence.

But Ashirya is correct in the second sentence. As far as i can remember reading the Eldar gods never created Daemon-esque creatures despite having that power and authority. Raises a great question as to why that is.

Correct. There's no solid evidence of Eldar Gods producing daemons.

That's not to say they can't, or didn't, but there's no evidence for it. The only possible thing I can come up with is Morai-Heg's 'daughters', the Banshees, which she sent to hound Khaine. They could possibly refer to ancient Eldar God daemons, but it's very tenuous and hardly conclusive.

It depends really on the nature of the Eldar Gods. There's one theory espoused somewhere in the fluff (must find a source) that the Eldar Gods are actually amalgamations of Eldar-spawned weapons of war from the war against the Necrons. If that's the case, then the Eldar Gods may in fact be amalgamations of lesser daemons, sort of using the reverse of the process by which Chaos Gods create lesser daemons.

That's, again, tenuous.

hey I never said the OPs idea was any good eaither

BrianDavion wrote:

hey I never said the OPs idea was any good eaither

Heh, no worries TBH I've yet to see any 'bring back a Primarch!' story that I've thought actually makes the 40k background any better. Super-powerful demigods belong in the past of 40k as far as I'm concerned

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

hey I never said the OPs idea was any good eaither

Heh, no worries TBH I've yet to see any 'bring back a Primarch!' story that I've thought actually makes the 40k background any better. Super-powerful demigods belong in the past of 40k as far as I'm concerned

Yeah I'm curious where GW's going with these primarch minis. I think it could potentially be intreasting, they choose the right Primarch to bring back IMHO, as Gulliman has the potential to be something other then just a really awesome beat stick and potnetially drive the story forward.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

hey I never said the OPs idea was any good eaither

Heh, no worries TBH I've yet to see any 'bring back a Primarch!' story that I've thought actually makes the 40k background any better. Super-powerful demigods belong in the past of 40k as far as I'm concerned

Have an exalt.

As far as OP's idea, to become a daemon prince you have to give your soul to your patron god IIRC, and Ynead seems concerned only with Eldar souls.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

hey I never said the OPs idea was any good eaither

Heh, no worries TBH I've yet to see any 'bring back a Primarch!' story that I've thought actually makes the 40k background any better. Super-powerful demigods belong in the past of 40k as far as I'm concerned

Have an exalt.

As far as OP's idea, to become a daemon prince you have to give your soul to your patron god IIRC, and Ynead seems concerned only with Eldar souls.

Because he's only had exposure to Eldar souls. Maybe a Primarch would also be worth his time, especially were he, the god of death, to personally kill the Khan. Especially if that's Ynnead's very first victim, something special would surely happen, right?

 Quarterdime wrote:

Because he's only had exposure to Eldar souls. Maybe a Primarch would also be worth his time, especially were he, the god of death, to personally kill the Khan. Especially if that's Ynnead's very first victim, something special would surely happen, right?

It's a slippery slope.

At first it's just one little primarch, then next thing you know you're summoning daemons and instigating cults, sitting in some dingy squatters bedsit next to Slaanesh and the other soul-junkies...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'd rather see him come back with some sort of Dark Eldar mind-control device grafted (very painfully) into his brain as some sort of twisted Haemonculus-created Pain Engine LoW.

Yeah. That would be fun

Yes like have a supplement with the line Rise of Khan or something and have it pitting White Scars with possibly Dark Angel, Space Wolf or both as allies against the Dark Eldar namely coven units with a horribly augmented Khan Pain Engine in tow. Just the sight of bikers plowing into groups of Wracks as Grotesques tackle and maul them all the while Talos are wreaking havoc and have an epic fight between Khan and Lemon Russ as they attempt to capture the former primarch. Would give Dark Eldar a Lord of War and would be absolutely epic and could even get White Scars back into prominence with some new formations and such. Lore-wise they hate Dark Eldar anyways and a fight to reunite with their primarch is all the more reason for an epic fight. Not to mention the battle of primarchs or how amazing an augmented primarch would be to model and to paint.