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So I had a question as to how an independent psyker joined to a unit with the brotherhood of psykers rule interact. If the ic uses a power that only specifies the caster, does it extend to the bos unit, as their rule states such a power would effect the full unit as when they cast it.

The IC doesn't have the BoP rule

 CrownAxe wrote:
The IC doesn't have the BoP rule

Are ICs affected by Stubborn or Fearless if they do not have the rule but the unit does?

 Charistoph wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
The IC doesn't have the BoP rule

Are ICs affected by Stubborn or Fearless if they do not have the rule but the unit does?

similar wording, but different.

The unit with a least one model becomes a 'psyker unit'. This includes any attached characters.

The two bullets, for how to interact when manifesting and suffering perils of the warp, both require the model to have the BoP rule to be effected, so this will not effect attached characters without the rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also from the BRB faq
Q: How does a power that targets ‘the Psyker’ but not his unit
work on a unit with Brotherhood of Psykers? If, for example,
a Wyrdvane Psyker squad casts Iron Arm, does one model
nominated as ‘the caster’ receive the benefits?
A: The power applies to all ‘Brotherhood of Psykers’
models in the unit.

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
The IC doesn't have the BoP rule

Are ICs affected by Stubborn or Fearless if they do not have the rule but the unit does?

similar wording, but different.

The unit with a least one model becomes a 'psyker unit'. This includes any attached characters.

The two bullets, for how to interact when manifesting and suffering perils of the warp, both require the model to have the BoP rule to be effected, so this will not effect attached characters without the rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also from the BRB faq
Q: How does a power that targets ‘the Psyker’ but not his unit
work on a unit with Brotherhood of Psykers? If, for example,
a Wyrdvane Psyker squad casts Iron Arm, does one model
nominated as ‘the caster’ receive the benefits?
A: The power applies to all ‘Brotherhood of Psykers’
models in the unit.

Doesn't really matter now, does it. There rulings that are so far off how they need their written rules to work there is no practical way to differentiate what they mean half the time as they are so contradictory.

The unit is already a Psyker unit by virtue of having a Psyker IC in it.

That having been said, the bullet points do state that a unit with a BoP casts a Power, it is manifested by a BoP model, so technically speaking, the Psyker IC cannot even cast.

 Charistoph wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
The IC doesn't have the BoP rule

Are ICs affected by Stubborn or Fearless if they do not have the rule but the unit does?

similar wording, but different.

The unit with a least one model becomes a 'psyker unit'. This includes any attached characters.

The two bullets, for how to interact when manifesting and suffering perils of the warp, both require the model to have the BoP rule to be effected, so this will not effect attached characters without the rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also from the BRB faq
Q: How does a power that targets ‘the Psyker’ but not his unit
work on a unit with Brotherhood of Psykers? If, for example,
a Wyrdvane Psyker squad casts Iron Arm, does one model
nominated as ‘the caster’ receive the benefits?
A: The power applies to all ‘Brotherhood of Psykers’
models in the unit.

Doesn't really matter now, does it. There rulings that are so far off how they need their written rules to work there is no practical way to differentiate what they mean half the time as they are so contradictory.

The unit is already a Psyker unit by virtue of having a Psyker IC in it.

That having been said, the bullet points do state that a unit with a BoP casts a Power, it is manifested by a BoP model, so technically speaking, the Psyker IC cannot even cast.

The rule, even the bullet points, never say the IC gains the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. The first bullet point has you drawing range from any model with BoP in the unit, but does not differentiate between regular unit and psyker unit. So, going by what it says you draw range, LoS, etc. from someone besides the IC as he doesn't have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. Likewise, according to the second bullet point, if the IC rolls Perils of the Warp it would be assigned to one of the models with Brotherhood of Psykers, not to him as he doesn't have the rule. Interesting loophole there - ablative Perils wounds for the IC that can do other things like shoot or assault with him!

 doctortom wrote:
The rule, even the bullet points, never say the IC gains the Brotherhood of Psykers rule.

If we go by certain people's interpretations, it does, just as the IC would receive Stubborn. (Note, I do not agree with this interpretation, but that should be rather well known by now).

And yeah, it is a bad loophole made possible by the crappy Psyker rules.

The problem is that that interpretation doesn't stand, while following strict RAW leads to the fun with measurements and with Perils of the Warp. If they had just clarified that they weren't referring to attached IC Pyskers it might have been better.

 doctortom wrote:
The problem is that that interpretation doesn't stand, while following strict RAW leads to the fun with measurements and with Perils of the Warp. If they had just clarified that they weren't referring to attached IC Pyskers it might have been better.

Agreed, but that mostly goes back to how poorly set up the Psyker rules are in differentiating (or not) a BoP unit and joined Psyker ICs.

 Charistoph wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
The problem is that that interpretation doesn't stand, while following strict RAW leads to the fun with measurements and with Perils of the Warp. If they had just clarified that they weren't referring to attached IC Pyskers it might have been better.

Agreed, but that mostly goes back to how poorly set up the Psyker rules are in differentiating (or not) a BoP unit and joined Psyker ICs.

...They're not that confusing. A 'Brotherhood of Psykers' unit is a discrete psyker. Joining an Independent Character to the unit doesn't turn them into one entity and let the psyker pass Perils wounds on/target the unit with self-target powers/etc any more than two different psykers joining one unit become one psyker that get to share self-target powers.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
...They're not that confusing. A 'Brotherhood of Psykers' unit is a discrete psyker. Joining an Independent Character to the unit doesn't turn them into one entity and let the psyker pass Perils wounds on/target the unit with self-target powers/etc any more than two different psykers joining one unit become one psyker that get to share self-target powers.

Actually, it does. A unit with at least one model with this special rule then causes all measuring AND Perils only from models with the Brotherhood of Psykers rules. It's all in those two bullet points. ICs generally do not come with the BoP rule, so cannot interact with this.

In addition, ICs are part of the unit when it comes to manifesting Psyker Powers, something the latest FAQ backs up. ICs are considered part of the unit and included in some of these affects because its affects include the same parameters and conditions of considerations as Stubborn and Fearless.

The things to remember per turn are:

IC and BoP unit generate Warp Charges separately

IC and BoP unit may cast their separate PML in powers

IC and BoP unit may only cast a specific power once regardles of which model casts the power, although the model must be able to cast that power

IC perils go to the BoP unit, the BoP unit's perils never go to the IC

Effects that effect the unit will apply to both the IC and the BoP unit

Effects that only effect the model will effect the IC only if the IC was targeted, of the entire BoP unit if any of the BoP models was targeted.

Weird, but that's what we have per the BRB and FAQ.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
IC perils go to the BoP unit, the BoP unit's perils never go to the IC

Can you explain your reasoning on this one? I thought they had fixed this in the FAQ. It's certainly counter-intuitive.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
IC perils go to the BoP unit, the BoP unit's perils never go to the IC

Can you explain your reasoning on this one? I thought they had fixed this in the FAQ. It's certainly counter-intuitive.

The rules for BoP state "If this unit suffers Perils of the Warp, or is hit by an attack that speifically targets Psykers, the hits are Randomly Allocated amonst models with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule. It says "unit", not "psychic unit", to the wording still applies if an IC joins the unit.

Guys, surely the answer to the SPECIFIC question the OP asked is simply "no".

The long version is that it's a no because the rule or effect that the OP is referring to affects the Psyker only, whether or not he is in a unit or not. "The Psyker" in this case is the IC, which was the OP's example. The unit partially containing a BoP doesn't matter - the effect only affects the caster, and the caster is not the BoP nor any of its members.

We are referring to "the effect" here - we don't know what that effect is. But, say that effect was giving "Fearless" to "the caster". The Fearless special rule says that it is conferred to the bearer AND his unit, which overrides this.

If the OP had asked a different question, being that one of the BoP models cast this power, then this power would affect that model and all models in the BoP because the rules state that they are all affected if one casts it on him/herself - they are all kind of "the caster" in this case. The IC in the unit would not be affected by it, he is not the caster nor a member of the BoP, though he is a member of the unit (unless again the effect is "fearless" or another special rule that is automatically conferred to the bearer and his unit).

Warhanna wrote:
"The Psyker" in this case is the IC,

Nope, 'fraid not.

'Psyker', for the purposes of resolving the psychic phase, refers to a unit with the Psyker, BoP or Spychic Pilot rule. Not a model within a unit.

While an IC is joined to another unit, they count as a single unit. So anything that refers to the 'psyker' refers to the unit, not just the IC.

This would be the case regardless of whether or not the unit the IC is joined to is a Brotherhood unit. The reason the Brotherhood rule is relevant is that it affects how psychic powers interact with the unit (ie: for most things, they only affect models with the BoP rule).


Basically, the rules for multiple psykers in a single unit are a mess, and GW have so far not seen fit to explain how they're actually supposed to work.

Warhanna wrote:
We are referring to "the effect" here - we don't know what that effect is. But, say that effect was giving "Fearless" to "the caster". The Fearless special rule says that it is conferred to the bearer AND his unit, which overrides this.

Point of order: Fearless never gives itself to anything. It just gives an effect to the unit. You will not find a synonym for "give" or "confer" in this Special Rule.