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Hello! I feel like there is a huge gap between CCW+Huge choppa and Powerklaw. Would be nice if orks had melee weapon to crack up 3+ and 4+ armor without doing huge overkill with powerklaw. But instead of boring AP3 powersword wanna be I've decided to come up with something orkier.

Chain choppa:
STR USR AP6 Two-Handed
Makes opponent reroll all successful saves in melee. If opponent has wargear that allows his model to reroll failed armor saves, negate it's effect and resolve armor saves as normal.

I think it keeps up with ork gameplay feel - overwhelm your opponents with an avalanche of forced armor saves. I wanted to ask a question, would it be any useful? Would you give it to nobz only or normal boyz could make use of it too? How would you price an ork weapon like this?

If you want some mathhammer :

Well chain axes are just a flat AP4, chainswords a regular CCW.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Well chain axes are just a flat AP4, chainswords a regular CCW.

Name is not that important; I wanted to call it Rippa initially but then figured out that people might confuse it with that old codex weapon that turned 2+ and 3+ armor into 4+.

 JawRippa wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Well chain axes are just a flat AP4, chainswords a regular CCW.

Name is not that important; I wanted to call it Rippa initially but then figured out that people might confuse it with that old codex weapon that turned 2+ and 3+ armor into 4+.

Could be cool to reinstate that thing then.
But my point wasn't just that chain-weapons already exist, it's there's already a precedent in how melee weapona improve. No other army has a a stop between regular weapons and powe weapons, which when going CCW>maul>sword>axe>fist isn't a massive curve.

The old rule that reduced any armour save higher then 4+ to a 4+ is fine enough.

Da Big Choppa is nearly useless, I agree. +2 Strength, but you lose an attack, is simply not worth the five points except in a few rare circumstances. (S7 on the charge can be nice for cracking light tanks, but generally volume of S5 is going to pop rear armor anyways, so it's moot.)
I could see it being used on a barebones Warboss for that magical S8 number, getting the all-important Instant Death against T4, but at that point you're giving up S10 AP2.



This chain choppa is a cool idea. I'd limit it to nobz and bosses, though it could potentially also be given to a dedicated assault squad - An ork equivalent to Repentia, for example.
10pts is probably fair, maybe a little high, but not bad. Maybe give it S+1 or something, since 5pts is too low but 10pts feels too high.

Waaaghpower wrote:
...5pts is too low but 10pts feels too high...

You could make it 6pts. Or 7pts. Maybe even 8pts. Or (Emperor forbid!) 9pts. There are four (count them, four) integers that are higher than 5 and lower than 10. You could take a leaf out of the 9th Age playbook and make them cost (gasp!) partial points, but that may just be silly.

(The insistence on making everything cost exact multiples of 5 seems odd to me; if you managed to make everything in the game cost even multiples of 5 why wouldn't you just divide all numbers associated with points by 5 and then move on? What makes it easier to do math in increments of 5? You're doing the exact same computation you would be if the numbers were divided by 5, they just don't always have a '5' or a '0' in them.)

Personally I think just letting Orks have chainaxes is a better solution to the stated problem, but I don't see anything particularly wrong with the chain-choppa concept. That said I would like to point out that the extra bit of reminder text on the end is redundant, it's already an established fact that if you're forced to reroll all successes and failures on the same roll the effects cancel out and you just take the roll as-is (rulebook p.11, heading 'General Principles', sub-heading 'Re-rolls').

(That said that clause of the rulebook specifies that the effects only cancel if you're rerolling all possible results, so (for instance) if you had the Mark of Tzeentch and a 3+ armour save you wouldn't be rerolling rolls of 2 (since they weren't successes or failed saves of 1) and you would need to roll and then reroll.)

One of the many disappointments with the ork codex was that despite being a mostly close combat oriented army, we only really have 3 generally available melee weapons - CCWs, big choppas, power klaws.

Like ProwlerPC said, the old rule limiting armor saves to 4+ would be pretty great.

But at this point, just about any more kinds of melee weapons would be welcome.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
...5pts is too low but 10pts feels too high...

You could make it 6pts. Or 7pts. Maybe even 8pts. Or (Emperor forbid!) 9pts. There are four (count them, four) integers that are higher than 5 and lower than 10. You could take a leaf out of the 9th Age playbook and make them cost (gasp!) partial points, but that may just be silly.

(The insistence on making everything cost exact multiples of 5 seems odd to me; if you managed to make everything in the game cost even multiples of 5 why wouldn't you just divide all numbers associated with points by 5 and then move on? What makes it easier to do math in increments of 5? You're doing the exact same computation you would be if the numbers were divided by 5, they just don't always have a '5' or a '0' in them.)

Personally I think just letting Orks have chainaxes is a better solution to the stated problem, but I don't see anything particularly wrong with the chain-choppa concept. That said I would like to point out that the extra bit of reminder text on the end is redundant, it's already an established fact that if you're forced to reroll all successes and failures on the same roll the effects cancel out and you just take the roll as-is (rulebook p.11, heading 'General Principles', sub-heading 'Re-rolls').

(That said that clause of the rulebook specifies that the effects only cancel if you're rerolling all possible results, so (for instance) if you had the Mark of Tzeentch and a 3+ armour save you wouldn't be rerolling rolls of 2 (since they weren't successes or failed saves of 1) and you would need to roll and then reroll.)

The convention exists because, if something costs an odd multiple, then you either have to take a bunch of them or you're going to be wasting points. If a weapon costs 11 points, then it really costs 15 points, unless you're taking a ten man grot unit and want to add one singular extra grot. You'll note that most squads exist in multiples of 5, and that squads that *don't* comply to this rules (tiny, 1-3 man squads usually) cost something in multiples of 5 - This is so players don't end up having extra points leftover.

Admittedly, in something like a 2k game, that 3-4 points is not a huge deal, but in smaller games, those few extra points can end up being a big deal. Even if it wasn't a bit deal, having your army come out to a nice, round number is aesthetically satisfying, and the fact that you either have to buy multiple oddly-numbered units or else pay a premium can be annoying and frustrating in those smaller games.

Waaaghpower wrote:
...The convention exists because, if something costs an odd multiple, then you either have to take a bunch of them or you're going to be wasting points. If a weapon costs 11 points, then it really costs 15 points, unless you're taking a ten man grot unit and want to add one singular extra grot. You'll note that most squads exist in multiples of 5, and that squads that *don't* comply to this rules (tiny, 1-3 man squads usually) cost something in multiples of 5 - This is so players don't end up having extra points leftover.

Admittedly, in something like a 2k game, that 3-4 points is not a huge deal, but in smaller games, those few extra points can end up being a big deal. Even if it wasn't a bit deal, having your army come out to a nice, round number is aesthetically satisfying, and the fact that you either have to buy multiple oddly-numbered units or else pay a premium can be annoying and frustrating in those smaller games.

The convention is weird and arbitrary. If there were more things that didn't cost an exact multiple of 5pts you could actually put a random peice of wargear in a 1-4pt gap when the rest of the list is built, restricting yourself to only units of exactly 5 models or exactly 10 models is silly, and no game of 40k has ever been decided because someone was playing 4pts down. The variance in the price-performance of units is way, way more than the 2% of your Kill-Team game or 0.2% of your 2,000pt game that a 4pt deficit represents, if you wanted to construct a scenario wherein 4pts made a difference you'd have to set up very, very specific armies to make it matter.

(I blame the insistence on making everything a multiple of 5 for making Harlequins overpriced. If they'd just made them 13pts like they ought to be instead of 15pts the book would work so much better. [/hyperbole])

 AnomanderRake wrote:

(I blame the insistence on making everything a multiple of 5 for making Harlequins overpriced. If they'd just made them 13pts like they ought to be instead of 15pts the book would work so much better. [/hyperbole])

That doesn't apply. Lots of squads are 13ppm. Squads don't follow the '5 point multiples' rule, only wargear. Because wargear is taken in smaller, more unusual amounts.

Chainaxes are STR usr AP4 and cost 3 pts, right?
I wonder if making huge choppas +2 STR and AP4 would be fair in that case to be honest...

I'm not sure on point cost of chain choppa. The weapon is worse than a powersword when against 3+, but much better than a powersword when against 2+. Giving it +1 STR on top of everyhing would make it an autograb compared to Huge Choppa, wouldn't it? I'd price it as 7-8 pts.

What do you think, should a chain choppa be two-handed or not?

Waaaghpower wrote:
Da Big Choppa is nearly useless, I agree. +2 Strength, but you lose an attack, is simply not worth the five points except in a few rare circumstances. (S7 on the charge can be nice for cracking light tanks, but generally volume of S5 is going to pop rear armor anyways, so it's moot.)
I could see it being used on a barebones Warboss for that magical S8 number, getting the all-important Instant Death against T4, but at that point you're giving up S10 AP2..

It's fine enough for challenge eating nobz who will at least get to strike ahead of and instakilling power fist, thunderhammer, whatever. It also allows them to ID Eldar and AM, and it's helpful if you run into a MC, dreadnought, or wraithknight. Helpful vs crisis suits too. When you need a PK, you need a PK. You don't want them getting challenged out tho, they'll probably get killed before they can strike. In this warboss-nob-miin boyz is getting like 45 attacks on the charge. (Did not check that but should be close enough to illustrate my point.) Is it better to have 46, or 4 of them S7? Not everything is rear armour 10, some vehicles run in squadrons. For 5 pts it's a fine enough deal.

I do wish there were more options though.

 slip wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Da Big Choppa is nearly useless, I agree. +2 Strength, but you lose an attack, is simply not worth the five points except in a few rare circumstances. (S7 on the charge can be nice for cracking light tanks, but generally volume of S5 is going to pop rear armor anyways, so it's moot.)
I could see it being used on a barebones Warboss for that magical S8 number, getting the all-important Instant Death against T4, but at that point you're giving up S10 AP2..

It's fine enough for challenge eating nobz who will at least get to strike ahead of and instakilling power fist, thunderhammer, whatever. It also allows them to ID Eldar and AM, and it's helpful if you run into a MC, dreadnought, or wraithknight. Helpful vs crisis suits too. When you need a PK, you need a PK. You don't want them getting challenged out tho, they'll probably get killed before they can strike. In this warboss-nob-miin boyz is getting like 45 attacks on the charge. (Did not check that but should be close enough to illustrate my point.) Is it better to have 46, or 4 of them S7? Not everything is rear armour 10, some vehicles run in squadrons. For 5 pts it's a fine enough deal.

I do wish there were more options though.

The problem is that Nobz are only I3, so anything that can kill a T4 2w 4+ model in Close Combat is going to be hitting before them no matter what they're armed with. The number of really good Close Combat characters that strike at I2 and I3 is a very, very short list - Either it's Space Marine equivalent or better, so it strikes at I4+, or it's wielding a Power Fist or equivalent, so it strikes at I1.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 slip wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Da Big Choppa is nearly useless, I agree. +2 Strength, but you lose an attack, is simply not worth the five points except in a few rare circumstances. (S7 on the charge can be nice for cracking light tanks, but generally volume of S5 is going to pop rear armor anyways, so it's moot.)
I could see it being used on a barebones Warboss for that magical S8 number, getting the all-important Instant Death against T4, but at that point you're giving up S10 AP2..

It's fine enough for challenge eating nobz who will at least get to strike ahead of and instakilling power fist, thunderhammer, whatever. It also allows them to ID Eldar and AM, and it's helpful if you run into a MC, dreadnought, or wraithknight. Helpful vs crisis suits too. When you need a PK, you need a PK. You don't want them getting challenged out tho, they'll probably get killed before they can strike. In this warboss-nob-miin boyz is getting like 45 attacks on the charge. (Did not check that but should be close enough to illustrate my point.) Is it better to have 46, or 4 of them S7? Not everything is rear armour 10, some vehicles run in squadrons. For 5 pts it's a fine enough deal.

I do wish there were more options though.

The problem is that Nobz are only I3, so anything that can kill a T4 2w 4+ model in Close Combat is going to be hitting before them no matter what they're armed with. The number of really good Close Combat characters that strike at I2 and I3 is a very, very short list - Either it's Space Marine equivalent or better, so it strikes at I4+, or it's wielding a Power Fist or equivalent, so it strikes at I1.

Do you think Big choppa would be more useful and fairly priced if Nobz had I4? (or had ways to get I4 on charge)

Ya, like I said, he'd strike before most things that can instakill him at least, as one part of a list of other helpful ways it can be used including MCs, dreadnoughts, vehicle squadrons, ID'ing T3, and wraithknights. Do you think 46 attacks is really measurably better than 45? S is a very useful stat in the game.