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Let's say Guilliman returns and is horrified at what the imperium has become in 10,000 years since the golden age of humanity and the great crusade. Guilliman demands he uproot the ecclaisiary, revamp almost every level of bureaucracy, and disband the high lords with a semi-elected system, form an non-aggression treaty and sensible foreign policy with certain Xenos with mutual common enemies (like Eldar) against Chaos, make the imperium more humane, etc.

The high lords are horrified and immediately declare him a traitor and a heretic and sends the inquisition, assassins, and sisters to kill him. Ultramarines, Creed, and Cypher side with Guilliman while Saint Celestine sides with the high lords and all hell breaks out just as Abandon approaches Earth with his black fleet. Meaning the IoM is completely utterly fethed with civil war and chaos encroaching and the high lords on Terra doing anything they can to hold on to their power. Imperial Guard is split evenly... brother against brother... space marine chapters who dislike the ultramarines side with High Lords or some chapters declare independence to form their own pockets.

Would you side with the Fascist, Xenophobic High Lords of Terra that's protected/saved IoM for 10,000 years? Or the Primarch who returned and wants to change everything to save the Imperium from perpetual decline into superstition, Xenophobia, and oppression.

Why would Celestine side with the High Lords?

She's part of the reason that Guilliman's back. The leaked WD pages have her thanking the flipping Emperor for giving the Imperium Guilliman back.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would Celestine side with the High Lords?

She's part of the reason that Guilliman's back. The leaked WD pages have her thanking the flipping Emperor for giving the Imperium Guilliman back.

Duty... to her sisters and she's part of the inquisition that directly takes their orders from the eclaissarchy

DorianGray wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would Celestine side with the High Lords?

She's part of the reason that Guilliman's back. The leaked WD pages have her thanking the flipping Emperor for giving the Imperium Guilliman back.

Duty... to her sisters and she's part of the inquisition that directly takes their orders from the eclaissarchy

Greyfax is an Inquisitor.
Sororitas are not part of the Inquisition. They're part of the Ecclesiarchy and serve as a Chamber Militant for the Ordo Hereticus; but they are separate from the Inquisition itself.

 Kanluwen wrote:

DorianGray wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Why would Celestine side with the High Lords?

She's part of the reason that Guilliman's back. The leaked WD pages have her thanking the flipping Emperor for giving the Imperium Guilliman back.

Duty... to her sisters and she's part of the inquisition that directly takes their orders from the eclaissarchy

Greyfax is an Inquisitor.
Sororitas are not part of the Inquisition. They're part of the Ecclesiarchy and serve as a Chamber Militant for the Ordo Hereticus; but they are separate from the Inquisition itself.

Ok fine. But who would you side with?

Depends on who he can rally around him. Guilliman seriously pissed off the non-Codex legions like DA, BA, and Space Wolves, but if he can rally them against the High Lords, than the High Lords have no chance. If it's just Guilliman, a couple allies, and the Ultramarines against the rest of the Imperium, then things get pretty dicey for him.

The xenos win. or chaos.

Everyone in the IoM looses.

If I go by my factions fluff.

Krieg nearly blew up their planet to stay loyal, so the 5th goes with the HLoTs.

The leadership of the 85th does not have a high opinion of SM to begin with, so they'd probably stick with the HLoT, too.

Why would Guilliman be more peaceful ? More humane ?
He was a leader during the Great Crusade: one of the most, if no THE most, xenophobic thing mankind ever did.
The goal was litteraly to kill every other intelligent specie.
And why would he be more "humane" ? The IoM isn't grimdark because it is fun, but because it can't be otherwise.
You can't give people holidays and free time and expect them to make as many ammo as now, and free time will make them ever more corrupted by Chaos.

DorianGray wrote:
Let's say Guilliman returns and is horrified at what the imperium has become in 10,000 years since the golden age of humanity and the great crusade. Guilliman demands he uproot the ecclaisiary, revamp almost every level of bureaucracy, and disband the high lords with a semi-elected system, form an non-aggression treaty and sensible foreign policy with certain Xenos with mutual common enemies (like Eldar) against Chaos, make the imperium more humane, etc.
.

What makes you think guillimann is eldar friendly? Aliens were shoot 'em up even in gc.

 godardc wrote:
Why would Guilliman be more peaceful ? More humane ?
He was a leader during the Great Crusade: one of the most, if no THE most, xenophobic thing mankind ever did.
The goal was litteraly to kill every other intelligent specie.
And why would he be more "humane" ? The IoM isn't grimdark because it is fun, but because it can't be otherwise.
You can't give people holidays and free time and expect them to make as many ammo as now, and free time will make them ever more corrupted by Chaos.

The goal wasn't to kill every other intelligent specie, the goal was to unite humanity under one common banner and free them from "tyranny". Hell, Horus even meets another species above the planet Murder and things are fine until the misunderstanding where Erebus steals the sword. Most of the aliens they destroy were already hostile to begin with (Orks) or refused negotiations.

Guilliman is a Primarch, a non corrupted super being with a superior mind to that of the normal men of the Imperium. He stands for a time when Man was at his Zenith in the Great Crusade. We all know the High Lords are a failure with lacklustre to no plans to advance the Imperium from its collapsing state. Guilliman is the only being who can bring change and organisation for the benefit of the Imperium, he is the Emperor's son and has the same drive and superhuman calculating mind to turn impossible odds round. I'd back any Primarch any day over the Bureaucrats on Terra, and I think none of us would have the guts to shout it out to Guilliman in person. A super pissed Primarch at current state of affairs getting pissed off by someone else is likely to get hurled at the Eye of Terra with a flick of his finger!

The High Lords of Terra believe success is when their drinks cabinet is fully stocked, and when a grinding advance is made in one sector their said drink cabinet can be moved 6 inches further into Imperial space and 6 inches further away from the dangers of the Eye of Terror. Such success is greatly valued by serving staff that make it is easier to refill glasses, not to mention greatly improving the aesthetics of the council chamber in the eyes of the High Lords!

I do not need to explain Guilliman's views of success.

++++CASE CLOSED++++

 Sentinel1 wrote:
Guilliman is a Primarch, a non corrupted super being with a superior mind to that of the normal men of the Imperium. He stands for a time when Man was at his Zenith in the Great Crusade. We all know the High Lords are a failure with lacklustre to no plans to advance the Imperium from its collapsing state. Guilliman is the only being who can bring change and organisation for the benefit of the Imperium, he is the Emperor's son and has the same drive and superhuman calculating mind to turn impossible odds round. I'd back any Primarch any day over the Bureaucrats on Terra, and I think none of us would have the guts to shout it out to Guilliman in person. A super pissed Primarch at current state of affairs getting pissed off by someone else is likely to get hurled at the Eye of Terra with a flick of his finger!

The High Lords of Terra believe success is when their drinks cabinet is fully stocked, and when a grinding advance is made in one sector their said drink cabinet can be moved 6 inches further into Imperial space and 6 inches further away from the dangers of the Eye of Terror. Such success is greatly valued by serving staff that make it is easier to refill glasses, not to mention greatly improving the aesthetics of the council chamber in the eyes of the High Lords!

I do not need to explain Guilliman's views of success.

++++CASE CLOSED++++

The big thing is the High Lords have had thousands of years to doctrinate the Imperium. Declaring Guilliman as corrupted and being tainted by Chaos could really turn the zealots against him.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:
Guilliman is a Primarch, a non corrupted super being with a superior mind to that of the normal men of the Imperium. He stands for a time when Man was at his Zenith in the Great Crusade. We all know the High Lords are a failure with lacklustre to no plans to advance the Imperium from its collapsing state. Guilliman is the only being who can bring change and organisation for the benefit of the Imperium, he is the Emperor's son and has the same drive and superhuman calculating mind to turn impossible odds round. I'd back any Primarch any day over the Bureaucrats on Terra, and I think none of us would have the guts to shout it out to Guilliman in person. A super pissed Primarch at current state of affairs getting pissed off by someone else is likely to get hurled at the Eye of Terra with a flick of his finger!

The High Lords of Terra believe success is when their drinks cabinet is fully stocked, and when a grinding advance is made in one sector their said drink cabinet can be moved 6 inches further into Imperial space and 6 inches further away from the dangers of the Eye of Terror. Such success is greatly valued by serving staff that make it is easier to refill glasses, not to mention greatly improving the aesthetics of the council chamber in the eyes of the High Lords!

I do not need to explain Guilliman's views of success.

++++CASE CLOSED++++

The big thing is the High Lords have had thousands of years to doctrinate the Imperium. Declaring Guilliman as corrupted and being tainted by Chaos could really turn the zealots against him.

A claim of corruption that can be directly countered by the fact he is traveling with Celestine, a Black Templar Marshall and a Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:
Guilliman is a Primarch, a non corrupted super being with a superior mind to that of the normal men of the Imperium. He stands for a time when Man was at his Zenith in the Great Crusade. We all know the High Lords are a failure with lacklustre to no plans to advance the Imperium from its collapsing state. Guilliman is the only being who can bring change and organisation for the benefit of the Imperium, he is the Emperor's son and has the same drive and superhuman calculating mind to turn impossible odds round. I'd back any Primarch any day over the Bureaucrats on Terra, and I think none of us would have the guts to shout it out to Guilliman in person. A super pissed Primarch at current state of affairs getting pissed off by someone else is likely to get hurled at the Eye of Terra with a flick of his finger!

The High Lords of Terra believe success is when their drinks cabinet is fully stocked, and when a grinding advance is made in one sector their said drink cabinet can be moved 6 inches further into Imperial space and 6 inches further away from the dangers of the Eye of Terror. Such success is greatly valued by serving staff that make it is easier to refill glasses, not to mention greatly improving the aesthetics of the council chamber in the eyes of the High Lords!

I do not need to explain Guilliman's views of success.

++++CASE CLOSED++++

The big thing is the High Lords have had thousands of years to doctrinate the Imperium. Declaring Guilliman as corrupted and being tainted by Chaos could really turn the zealots against him.

A claim of corruption that can be directly countered by the fact he is traveling with Celestine, a Black Templar Marshall and a Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Dude you just signed your own death warrant. The inquisition will come pay a visit soon. By order of the High Lords.

The High Lords will order the Grey Knights to exterminate Guilliman AND Celestine as traitors.

Is the question which side would I want to win in the story or which side do I believe is right using my real life beliefs and morals?

I enjoy the primary human faction being a bunch of xenophobic, superstitious zealots using extremely powerful technology that they don't understand and lorded over by a corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy. I also like the idea that the Imperium of Man is so terribly awful because that is what is needed for the survival of the species.

I think the reason I enjoy this so much is that I have the exact opposite beliefs when it comes to the real world. I'm a techno-optimist who doesn't like superstition and thinks that we can and should all get along and things are probably going to turn out great. This makes the horrible dystopia of the 40k universe really appealing to me for some reason.

So I don't know whether or not Guilliman will come back talking about how The Emperor is not a god and we need to start cutting red tape and working with the Tau. If he does, hopefully there will be a civil war and he'll get squashed. Maybe he'll be too busy trying to solve the Horus and Tyranids problem and will do his best not to rile the High Lords or the Ecclesiarchy until he's got those settled. Heck, maybe he's going to come back saying that in his long absence he's seen visions of The Emperor ascending to godhood and he'll be such a fanatic that he puts the Black Templars to shame.

I hope Warhammer 40,000 remains a place where nice, reasonable people get eaten.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Sentinel1 wrote:
Guilliman is a Primarch, a non corrupted super being with a superior mind to that of the normal men of the Imperium. He stands for a time when Man was at his Zenith in the Great Crusade. We all know the High Lords are a failure with lacklustre to no plans to advance the Imperium from its collapsing state. Guilliman is the only being who can bring change and organisation for the benefit of the Imperium, he is the Emperor's son and has the same drive and superhuman calculating mind to turn impossible odds round. I'd back any Primarch any day over the Bureaucrats on Terra, and I think none of us would have the guts to shout it out to Guilliman in person. A super pissed Primarch at current state of affairs getting pissed off by someone else is likely to get hurled at the Eye of Terra with a flick of his finger!

The High Lords of Terra believe success is when their drinks cabinet is fully stocked, and when a grinding advance is made in one sector their said drink cabinet can be moved 6 inches further into Imperial space and 6 inches further away from the dangers of the Eye of Terror. Such success is greatly valued by serving staff that make it is easier to refill glasses, not to mention greatly improving the aesthetics of the council chamber in the eyes of the High Lords!

I do not need to explain Guilliman's views of success.

++++CASE CLOSED++++

The big thing is the High Lords have had thousands of years to doctrinate the Imperium. Declaring Guilliman as corrupted and being tainted by Chaos could really turn the zealots against him.

A claim of corruption that can be directly countered by the fact he is traveling with Celestine, a Black Templar Marshall and a Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

4 people versus ten thousand years of propaganda? Don't get me wrong, he's still a Primarch, but that's a tough toss up.

They aren't really just 3 people and a Primarch though, its a Living Saint, a Marshall from a Chapter known to be rather Puritanical and a Grey Knight.

Thats not something many people of note in the Imperium would discount because the High Lords told them too, even with Propaganda. Because Guilliman will have been apart of that 10,000 years of High Lord propaganda, and now the Lords are countermanding that? Questions would be raised.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They aren't really just 3 people and a Primarch though, its a Living Saint, a Marshall from a Chapter known to be rather Puritanical and a Grey Knight.

Thats not something many people of note in the Imperium would discount because the High Lords told them too, even with Propaganda. Because Guilliman will have been apart of that 10,000 years of High Lord propaganda, and now the Lords are countermanding that? Questions would be raised.

Why? They could argue it's a Daemon masquerading as Guilliman and co. Hell, one of Tzeentch's guys did just that to the Dark Angels by masquerading as Azrael.

Depends
YES the Imperium is Wrong in Worshipping the Emperor as a God, but i dont see the Custodes Complaining

As stated before, just because he is Travelling with Celestine, a Black Templar Marshall AND a Grand Master of the Grey Knights does not mean "He is/is not Corrupted" due to it would be a stance of Opinion (Gulliman wants it to be the old way how father wanted it but everyone else wants it to be as it always has been for 10k years)

I smell a 40k Civil war between Gulliman and the Religious sect of the Imperium
(But i would totally side with the Imperium in this one, or do i?, am i Alpharius?)

 jreilly89 wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
They aren't really just 3 people and a Primarch though, its a Living Saint, a Marshall from a Chapter known to be rather Puritanical and a Grey Knight.

Thats not something many people of note in the Imperium would discount because the High Lords told them too, even with Propaganda. Because Guilliman will have been apart of that 10,000 years of High Lord propaganda, and now the Lords are countermanding that? Questions would be raised.

Why? They could argue it's a Daemon masquerading as Guilliman and co. Hell, one of Tzeentch's guys did just that to the Dark Angels by masquerading as Azrael.

A masquerade that was seen through and ended when the Grey Knights were close enough. Again, Living Saint and Grey Knight, it will be hard to argue him being a daemon. And even harder for people who have heard for 10k years from the Imperium that Guilliman is The Savior of the Imperium to believe.

People are missing the question.

WHO WOULD YOU SIDE WITH?

What version of the Imperium do you want to see?

I would side with Guilliman.

...Given that I'm already running a schismatic Inquisitorial force that's running about hunting daemons and heretics without direction from Terra? I'm probably going to ignore the whole mess and continue hanging out in frontier territories plaguing whoever wins with a continued barrage of smart remarks.

And what is this about a 'sensible foreign policy' and 'mutual common enemies'? My Corsair fleet isn't about to make common cause with this particular moronic deaf-mute mon-keigh who can't see beyond the tip of his nose just because he's taller than the last one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DorianGray wrote:
...Would you side with the Fascist, Xenophobic High Lords of Terra that's protected/saved IoM for 10,000 years? Or the Primarch who returned and wants to change everything to save the Imperium from perpetual decline into superstition, Xenophobia, and oppression....

(Can you say "loaded question"?)

Obviously the God Emperors side is the only one to be, and who isn't ....

The blessed high lords are not one faction. They have never been ; )

My Inquisitorial host will keep fighting for team Xanthism.
Guilliman is out, for I refuse to accept a lab grown techno barbarian as a rightful ruler. What faction I will join depends on if they do or do not plan to bug me with puritan spies and / or crazy repressive laws.

So who knows I might just join sides with the Speaker for the Chartist Captains if I have to choose between high lords and non human tyrant.

2 things. One, don't have a poll giving options to people riddled with your own personal bias.

And B, where do you get the idea that a Great Crusade Era Primarch is in any way, shape, or form, more "humane" and and will act in a "better" way than the High Lords. The Imperium has been running fine* for thousands of years due to the way it manages people. It might not be the most "humane" way to do it but it's working*.

Also the Roman Empire was nearly torn apart completely in the third century from random upstarts who thought they could do it better. When in fact they just made things much much worse. I fail to see how this would be any different. Sure one individual may be more qualified, but the process of removing the current leader and giving power to the person who may or may not do a better job is potentially worse than just letting the current leader continue.

*In that the Empire isn't destroyed yet

Dorian, your biased and frankly blatant attempts to rile people up are annoying.

You are the click bait of dakkadakka.

If Reboot Gigabyte begins a civil war to clean out the religious warship and ultimately making things even more grimdark I'll begin using his real name and side with him. If he's only around to be noblebright then I can only hope that the situation follows the regular formula which anything noble bright appearing in the fluff is because it's about to meet a grim dark ending. So in conclusion - bonus points if evolved Robot Gorillamon gets captured by Honsou's warband and dies in a failed experiment to make a Primarch Daemonculabra. During "child birth" would be a great spot which finally puts the Primarch put of his misery.

Whoever would benefit them the most. So there'd be a schism.