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 Sigvatr wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
It seems Sigvatr thinks that every unit that isn't in one of the cookie cutter builds is "trash."

Honest question, man, do you have any unique perspective to offer to these discussions other then "take what veryone else is taking, nothing else is worth looking at?" If that's how you are most comfortably playing, then cool, more power to you. But it's a little awkward discussing units that you personally have success with and having some one who never takes them themselves tell you that they are trash.

My usual list:

01001110 01011010 (Nemesor Zahndrekh)
Destroyer Lord

Destrotek x5

20 Warriors w/ GA
10 Warriors w/ GA

3 Heavy Destroyers
6 Wraiths
2 AB
2 SP

Not even close to a competitive list and far from the usual netlists

Now, to the DA: it's trash because it's vastly overcosted. If it could move and shoot, it would be ok. If it was 30 pts cheaper, it would be ok. If it was S10 AP1 and had additional armor penetration, it would be good.

It's extremely expensive and offers so little while being vulnerable in return and taking up valuable HS slots. S9 AP1 is nice to have, no doubt, but not for this price and not on an immobile firing station that, additionally, has a 33% chance on a Weapon Destroyed result to be effectively destroyed. It's incredibly overpriced and until it gains any additional benefit or a severe cost reduction, it's bottom tier. Still better than th C'tan Shard (well...), but not as good as Flayed Ones and not as good as the monolith.

/r FO: My Maynarkh list consists of 60 Flayed Ones

That's awesome that you run those units man. I just don't understand why we don't spend more time talking about the tactics of the units we do run instead of the cliche'd netlist units everyone already knows about. There isn't a lot of nuance to AB's, you plop em on the field and they try to outshoot their targets until they are dead. I feel it makes us all better as players talking about how to maximize the units that aren't as straight forward. I'm sure in your Maynarkh list you've found that Flayed Ones offer a flexibility in the objective game that can be harder to come by with other units, for instance. I know even without scoring and shred I've used them consistently for 3 editions to muddle what my opponent was attempting to do.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
It seems Sigvatr thinks that every unit that isn't in one of the cookie cutter builds is "trash."

Honest question, man, do you have any unique perspective to offer to these discussions other then "take what veryone else is taking, nothing else is worth looking at?" If that's how you are most comfortably playing, then cool, more power to you. But it's a little awkward discussing units that you personally have success with and having some one who never takes them themselves tell you that they are trash.

My usual list:

01001110 01011010 (Nemesor Zahndrekh)
Destroyer Lord

Destrotek x5

20 Warriors w/ GA
10 Warriors w/ GA

3 Heavy Destroyers
6 Wraiths
2 AB
2 SP

Not even close to a competitive list and far from the usual netlists

Now, to the DA: it's trash because it's vastly overcosted. If it could move and shoot, it would be ok. If it was 30 pts cheaper, it would be ok. If it was S10 AP1 and had additional armor penetration, it would be good.

It's extremely expensive and offers so little while being vulnerable in return and taking up valuable HS slots. S9 AP1 is nice to have, no doubt, but not for this price and not on an immobile firing station that, additionally, has a 33% chance on a Weapon Destroyed result to be effectively destroyed. It's incredibly overpriced and until it gains any additional benefit or a severe cost reduction, it's bottom tier. Still better than th C'tan Shard (well...), but not as good as Flayed Ones and not as good as the monolith.

/r FO: My Maynarkh list consists of 60 Flayed Ones

That's awesome that you run those units man. I just don't understand why we don't spend more time talking about the tactics of the units we do run instead of the cliche'd netlist units everyone already knows about. There isn't a lot of nuance to AB's, you plop em on the field and they try to outshoot their targets until they are dead. I feel it makes us all better as players talking about how to maximize the units that aren't as straight forward. I'm sure in your Maynarkh list you've found that Flayed Ones offer a flexibility in the objective game that can be harder to come by with other units, for instance. I know even without scoring and shred I've used them consistently for 3 editions to muddle what my opponent was attempting to do.

Don't listen to Sigvatr. Sure his input is very valuable but his personal shortcoming that Necron dakkites are well aware of is that he is overly dismissive and opinionated so you can edit out the dismissive and opinionated aspects of his replies. He needs to work on his communication style. If you want to make the Doomsday Ark your pet project then go for it. But you are going to have to be real crafty about it because the Doomsday Ark is overcosted and very lackluster in the typical list. You might think of pairing heavy fast assault (wraiths, scarabs, and bargeLord) with Doomsday Ark so the opponent can't afford to target the Doomsday Ark and you will get your points back for the Doomsday Ark before it bites the dust. Fast assault + backfield artillery punch. Anyway, that's essentially what you have to do. Very early on you have to give the opponent something much more pressing to worry about than the Doomsday Ark and you will enable the Doomsday Ark to hammer away for several turns.

Anyway, that's essentially what you have to do. Very early on you have to give the opponent something much more pressing to worry about than the Doomsday Ark and you will enable the Doomsday Ark to hammer away for several turns.

Both MarkCron and Virus have lists in the army section right now that exploit exactly this. You combine the DA with CC elements that can push the enemy back and away from engagement range of the DA. That great thing about that gun is that as long as it's alive it's got something to hit, and it has very few targets that are truly "bad" options. Keep it alive and fire efficiently with that thing and you'll start wondering why you never saw it's potential before.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

That's awesome that you run those units man. I just don't understand why we don't spend more time talking about the tactics of the units we do run instead of the cliche'd netlist units everyone already knows about. There isn't a lot of nuance to AB's, you plop em on the field and they try to outshoot their targets until they are dead. I feel it makes us all better as players talking about how to maximize the units that aren't as straight forward. I'm sure in your Maynarkh list you've found that Flayed Ones offer a flexibility in the objective game that can be harder to come by with other units, for instance. I know even without scoring and shred I've used them consistently for 3 editions to muddle what my opponent was attempting to do.

When discussing about certain units on the forums, I mainly take the competitive point of view and measure each unit's value at that standard. The reason for this is that I think that every unit can be useful and potentially game-winning in a casual environment. You could easily win a game with a DA list against an opponent who fields a BA list, for example. On a casual level, there almost aren't bad units, although the C'Tan shard is so damn expensive that I'd even say that in a casual game, they suck The point is: what is the worth of discussing units on a casual level when almost every unit can then be considered good? The only answer to a discussion on said level would be "Yes, they can be a good addition to your army!". That's why I usually take the competitive point of view - it's a level where you can actually discuss a unit's worth. So, when I say that a unit is "trash", keep in mind that this means it can hardly succeed at a competitive level - but at the same time, it may do awesome at a less competitive standard

Same goes for my lists. My usual list has borderlin zero chances at winning any tournament. No flyers, Heavy Destroyers, 2 OS troops, no CCB - I could easily counter my list with most given armies. I play it because I would never field a flyer as I don't see it fit to Necrons and because I still prefer having actual models on the field. Sentry Pylons because they are scratch-builts. My Maynarkh list is absolutely horrible Lychguard, Flayed Ones, Scarabs Swarms, no AB, no GA, no flyers...it's a giant footslog. But it's a highly fluff-orientated and specifically themed list that looks awesome on the field. All models are converted and specifically painted to look damaged or "old". It's a love list

So, when I say that a unit is "trash", keep in mind that this means it can hardly succeed at a competitive level - but at the same time, it may do awesome at a less competitive standard

Right, I get that, I just don't think there are many units in the Necron Codex that can be considered that bad. I've used just about everything with regularlarity, and I simply don't think you have to take 3 ABs, or NSs, or Wraiths, or any of the other extremely popular units to be competitive.

From my experience the most popular units tend to be the most straight forward, but they certainly aren't our only competitive options.

Quick Question:
Can someone point out the reference for the Sentry Pylon where the Gauss exterminator was removed?
Thanks,

Oh, it wasn't technically "removed", it just became totally useless in 7th because you snapfire at anything but skimmers and flyers.

"Removed" from the list of viable picks, if you want.

I have a Necron tactic related question.

If I take two Royal Courts, each with a Stormtek with a Lightning Field, and I join them both to the same unit would both Lightning Fields trigger when the unit is being assaulted?

Yeah, it stacks.
Though, what unit would you be trying to add them to?

I was thinking of joining the two Stormteks to a unit of warriors and then throwing them in a Nightscythe for the extra Tesla and precision deployment. I was thinking that AV 14 could potentially create an issue, and the typical Tesla Destructors won't be of any help. As this unit is very weak to CC I was figuring the Lightning Fields would act as a assault deterrent/assistance.

FettPrime wrote:
I was thinking of joining the two Stormteks to a unit of warriors and then throwing them in a Nightscythe for the extra Tesla and precision deployment. I was thinking that AV 14 could potentially create an issue, and the typical Tesla Destructors won't be of any help. As this unit is very weak to CC I was figuring the Lightning Fields would act as a assault deterrent/assistance.

Honestly, from my experience, it doesn't really help much. 2d6 S8 hits that are only ap5 wouldn't actually do much, unless MAYBE you're fighting Eldar Wraith units or Tyranids.

And even then you're wounding on half (7 on average) and they save 66 percent of those. Not bad but hardly worth spending points for the express purpose of those hits.

What are people's opinions on allies in 7th? The general consensus in 6th was that Necrons are always stronger on their own, do we still feel the same?

Are people using the command barge much? I tried it the other night and yay, it did verrily smash face in.

With the sweep attacks, what can these attacks hit? they hit on a 4+ according to the codex, but as these aren't technically either close combat attacks or shooting attacks, can they hit invisible units?

On all the FAQ stuff above, the next tournament I am going to has stated that it'll be issuing an updated FAQ for the tournament that will be an amalgamation of 6th and 7th due to the large errata shaped hole in the 7th ed faq. Seems like BAO is doing the same thing. It sounds like GW have dropped the ball here.

And surely Necrons can get in and out of their transports? But now I better check with my TO first...

Yep you can poop on invisible units. What used to happen was that only battle brothers could embark on each others' transports, IIRC. I'm not sure if that has changed or not because my first love is Nids (although I do own a converted Squiggoth).

On the topic of allies, however, what do you feel that necrons are lacking in? Most of the time, allies require an HQ and a troop at minimum (unless you want a second CAD, where you need two troops). Finding a set that matches the army's specific needs without wasting points on the HQ, or the troop choice(s), or both, is tough to do. So typically, there needs to be a gap, something that your army can't do well for you to want to use allies. I don't know of anything that Necrons are lacking in. Deathstar? I have wraith sas a deathstar deterrent and can make a nasty deathstar of my own, even without Pylo-star. AV14? Hello Gauss. If I don't have enough gauss, there's always crypteks. Nasty MCs? Tie up with wraiths (or kill with wraiths and a D Lord) or just use deathmarks, or the cryptek that has the nasty flamer that can benefit from the deathmark rule. Hordes of infantry? How many tesla wounds did I just make with four dice? Light Mech? How many hull points did I strip with just four tesla dice? And have I mentioned gauss?

Although I'm newer to Necrons (notably losing a game because I mistakenly thought that the D Lord was T5 and had him get instagibbed turn 2), I still struggle to see the need. In fact, I would go so far as to say that you could take a sub-optimal ally and still be ok because of how strong necrons are if you wish to do so because of a cool model (Ang'grath I'm looking at you!) or just for fluff reasons (such as the planet of the apes army that I'm figuring out how to field)

Always check everything with your TO first.

Necrons do not need allies. You're better of buying more Necrons. CCB is awesome. Sweeping attacks are neither cc nor shooting attacks and ignore invisibility.

Necrons needed allies more so when assault was a greater threat or we needed stronger objective holding units. Now that we have arguably the best objective secured units in the game and armies are generally built for shooting allies aren't that neccessary. The other thing is a Necrons have zero defense against psychic powers, so we don't have to dedicate any points to try and counter psychic powers. We just have to build and spend the points assuming our opponents can or will have powers and we have to counter them in other ways.

I honestly don't think we need allies.
In my opinion we don't really have a "weakness" that we cannot overcome with our own codex.

Things might be different in Tournament play, where a 'fix' isn't enough if it's not incredibly strong.
But in my games I never felt as if I could use another army.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Necrons do not need allies. You're better of buying more Necrons. CCB is awesome. Sweeping attacks are neither cc nor shooting attacks and ignore invisibility.

You can never have enough Necrons!
Today I bought around 3000 points for €250, bringing the total to 12000.
Best part being that it includes 20 Flayed Ones, I cannot wait to use them

What do people think might be the most enjoyable way to test them out.
As elite-units in a normal list, or maybe go Dark Harvest and have them as troops?
And do I want to Deep Strike them, DS-them with Imothek, Infiltrate or have them joined by an IC?

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Necrons needed allies more so when assault was a greater threat or we needed stronger objective holding units. Now that we have arguably the best objective secured units in the game and armies are generally built for shooting allies aren't that neccessary. The other thing is a Necrons have zero defense against psychic powers, so we don't have to dedicate any points to try and counter psychic powers. We just have to build and spend the points assuming our opponents can or will have powers and we have to counter them in other ways.

Am I the only one not afraid of melee? And my to-go opponent plays Orks for crying out loud!

Uhm.. We have Gloom Prisms?
Spyders are already awesome, having a small 4+ DtW-bubble makes them even juicier.

Well the main problem that Necrons had in the second half of 6th was firepower compared to Tau and Eldar. Best Heavy support option was (is?) annihilation barge which is really good value but not uber killy. It'll get you 3/4 str 7 hits. You aren't wiping enough out. And, whatever changes appear to have been made to the rules of 40k, most tournaments are still only allowing one FoC and one ally/formation.

Mobilities importance with everything scoring has boosted us massively. But wouldn't it be even better if we could just kill more stuff too?

Anyway. I'm taking a Firebase Support Cadre and it synergises awesomely. It self buffs, so doesn't need battle brothers, and allows me to still fit in all the great cheap mobile unit deleting Necron stuff I love. Including our shiny new CCB overlord.

Kholzerino wrote:
Well the main problem that Necrons had in the second half of 6th was firepower compared to Tau and Eldar. Best Heavy support option was (is?) annihilation barge which is really good value but not uber killy. It'll get you 3/4 str 7 hits. You aren't wiping enough out. And, whatever changes appear to have been made to the rules of 40k, most tournaments are still only allowing one FoC and one ally/formation.

My calculations give you 5.33 S7 hits, with a chance to hit other models near it.

Apparently we'd get a lower average (5 hits), but a higher chance to go above that average if their BS was 3.
Would be the first army in 40k that actually wants a nerf XD

I'm actually interested in the chance-distribution for the Tesla Destructor-hits (ignoring the Arc).
Anyone might have that by hand, else I should ask my brother to do that.

Kangodo wrote:
I honestly don't think we need allies.
In my opinion we don't really have a "weakness" that we cannot overcome with our own codex.

Things might be different in Tournament play, where a 'fix' isn't enough if it's not incredibly strong.
But in my games I never felt as if I could use another army.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Necrons do not need allies. You're better of buying more Necrons. CCB is awesome. Sweeping attacks are neither cc nor shooting attacks and ignore invisibility.

You can never have enough Necrons!
Today I bought around 3000 points for €250, bringing the total to 12000.
Best part being that it includes 20 Flayed Ones, I cannot wait to use them

What do people think might be the most enjoyable way to test them out.
As elite-units in a normal list, or maybe go Dark Harvest and have them as troops?
And do I want to Deep Strike them, DS-them with Imothek, Infiltrate or have them joined by an IC?

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Necrons needed allies more so when assault was a greater threat or we needed stronger objective holding units. Now that we have arguably the best objective secured units in the game and armies are generally built for shooting allies aren't that neccessary. The other thing is a Necrons have zero defense against psychic powers, so we don't have to dedicate any points to try and counter psychic powers. We just have to build and spend the points assuming our opponents can or will have powers and we have to counter them in other ways.

Am I the only one not afraid of melee? And my to-go opponent plays Orks for crying out loud!

Uhm.. We have Gloom Prisms?
Spyders are already awesome, having a small 4+ DtW-bubble makes them even juicier.

Gloom prisms are worth squat if you aren't targeted and any decent opponent will just not target Spyders with psychic powers, and besides why are you using heavy slots on Spyders when you can buy A barges and Doomscythesa? I'm guessing you are scarab farming against Orks, makes sense. Not meta busting just good for tarpitting assault squad that don't double out bases.

Kangodo wrote:

Kholzerino wrote:
Well the main problem that Necrons had in the second half of 6th was firepower compared to Tau and Eldar. Best Heavy support option was (is?) annihilation barge which is really good value but not uber killy. It'll get you 3/4 str 7 hits. You aren't wiping enough out. And, whatever changes appear to have been made to the rules of 40k, most tournaments are still only allowing one FoC and one ally/formation.

My calculations give you 5.33 S7 hits, with a chance to hit other models near it.

Apparently we'd get a lower average (5 hits), but a higher chance to go above that average if their BS was 3.
Would be the first army in 40k that actually wants a nerf XD

I'm actually interested in the chance-distribution for the Tesla Destructor-hits (ignoring the Arc).
Anyone might have that by hand, else I should ask my brother to do that.

You're absolutely right on the math hammer. So if you max heavy support slots on A barges, you spend 270 points for 16 str 7 ap - hits. (assuming you moved a max of six)
195 points on one unit of broadsides gets you 9 str7 ap4 hits AND 9 str5 ap5 Ignores Cover Hits. (assuming you didn't move).

Obviously A Barges have other uses. They are much more mobile than broadsides. They can move 12" and still put out quite a lot of fire (especially if you are using them as anti air, which they are fine for) and they can score on things that they move onto. The broadsides become much less effective when you move them around.

But all I am saying is: its nice to have both.

But do Broadsides have a chance to get more and more?
How do Broadsides work against flyers (probably good) and are they also AV13 fast skimmers?
And let's not forget Arc!

My brother did the math on Tesla with MatLab:


He did not include the chance on 0 hits, but that's 1.14%
I also have the numbers on BS3, and they are actually worse on almost every amount of hits.
Only exception being 1 hit and 7 hit; 12 hits goes from a 0.09% to 0.10% when you lower your BS.
In exchange you are much worse on every field and even terribly worse at 0 hits: 6.54%

I do think he made some mistakes, so I will let him take a look at it tomorrow and make a new graph.

 NecronLord3 wrote:
Gloom prisms are worth squat if you aren't targeted and any decent opponent will just not target Spyders with psychic powers, and besides why are you using heavy slots on Spyders when you can buy A barges and Doomscythesa? I'm guessing you are scarab farming against Orks, makes sense. Not meta busting just good for tarpitting assault squad that don't double out bases.

"The other thing is a Necrons have zero defense against psychic powers"

So what you are saying is: We do have defences against Psychic powers, apologies for making a false claim. I just think that unit isn't good enough compared to the other awesomeness we have in that slow and therefore acted as if we have nothing at all.
Or something like that?

We have nothing to block the good psychic powers that people actually use, which are buffing powers, most often, to which we can only do the random d6 deny rolls. We have the most survivable units in the game(without having a 2+rerollable inv. save) being gak at isn't our problem, or at least not in a way any competitve army isn't already threating us. We have 24" range guns, little with ap1&2 weapons. What we can't do is stop summoning armies, or intercept drop pod armies. Luckily we handely take out super heavies, but we crumble agaisnt other armies that can do the same.

Kangodo wrote:
But do Broadsides have a chance to get more and more?
How do Broadsides work against flyers (probably good) and are they also AV13 fast skimmers?
And let's not forget Arc!

Broadsides are twin linked and they lose their BS disadvantage (BS3) when snap shooting. You can buff them with skyfire if you pay the points (I don't) or for 5 points each you can take EWO (interceptor) on the group (I do). If you take a Firebase Support Cadre, they get Tank Hunter.

Kangodo wrote:

Best part being that it includes 20 Flayed Ones, I cannot wait to use them

My Maynarkh list now has 60 Flayed Ones. They are much better because of being able to OS, but don't expect to win games with such a list.

One important question: How good are Canoptek Acanthrites?
And are they worth it to buy them second-hand at 50% discount?

 Sigvatr wrote:
My Maynarkh list now has 60 Flayed Ones. They are much better because of being able to OS, but don't expect to win games with such a list.

Ooh, but I do.
I've never lost a game with my Necrons, no matter how hard I try to limit myself.
They usually end with a remark on how OP Necrons are, followed by me explaining the 20 things they should and could've done otherwise.

Even with my Flayed Ones-less melee-list I won against Orks, though only barely.
Why the hell would anyone allow Lychguard to get a charge on Boyz?

I actually WANT to lose, as long as I had fun playing my lists.
Because that's one thing I refuse to do: Build a list that I won't enjoy.

Kholzerino wrote:
Broadsides are twin linked and they lose their BS disadvantage (BS3) when snap shooting. You can buff them with skyfire if you pay the points (I don't) or for 5 points each you can take EWO (interceptor) on the group (I do). If you take a Firebase Support Cadre, they get Tank Hunter.

Hmm, I'm not too familiar with Tau.
But from the lists I've seen they hardly get spammed as much as AB's.

AB's are still awesome, and next week I'll have 5 so I am happy

Hey guys I have been away from 40k for a year now. 21 credits blows. But before I left I bought a small neuron force.

What should I add to be competitive in 7th.

I have :
2command barges
4nib immortal boxes
3night scythes
3annihilation barges.

Kangodo wrote:

I've never lost a game with my Necrons, no matter how hard I try to limit myself.)

It really depends on your meta. In a highly competitive meta, where everyone runs competitive lists, a FO list has zero chance at winning the game. It looks awesome (they are conversions after all), but that's about it. And since I'm back to 4th now, I might just sell them off - or parts of it. But I guess I'll keep the little buggers. Lots of work went into them.

@monti14: Competitive on tournaments?
I think some warriors and Wraiths should be needed.

@Sigvatr:
It's a good thing and a bad thing, my meta.
On the one hand I don't feel forced to buy certain units (I really hate 'spamming' stuff).
But on the other hand they will call my crons OP no matter what I field.

I would probably leave a highly competitive meta.. You shouldn't have to be sober to play :(
We do have a very big meta just over the border, but my German sucks.

Not tournaments but don't wanna get my teeth punched in either. Not gonna rock tournaments because I need a decent amount of practice in 7th to catch up. So some regular warriors and give or say 6-8 wraiths? Maybe a destroyer lord?