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Seem like mortal wound tax to me. Some of the things in game are seriously overpriced just because of magical something when you roll a lucky 6.

Wave Serpents are the best. Have won quite a few games with Serpents lead by a Swooping Hawk Wing wearing Autarch.

They are like a Swiss Army Knife in this edition. Weapon platforms for every choice, and also offering a few Mortal Wounds to destroy that which threaten your force multipliers.

So new FAQ nerfed razorwing flocks. 14 ppm and 3-12 unit size.
Makes sense as something had to change tho I feel at 14 points they aren't worth taking.

Yes that seems to put them in the ground. You might take singleton units at 14 points, but now you can't take singletons. And you don't want big units at 14 points since now you're paying more points for your wounds than Conscripts do, with the disadvantages of being multi-wound models, T2, and no armor save. Presumably the point here is just to get rid of them while still technically allowing people to bring their models.

Wyldcarde wrote:
So new FAQ nerfed razorwing flocks. 14 ppm and 3-12 unit size.
Makes sense as something had to change tho I feel at 14 points they aren't worth taking.

Holy moly that's a heavy nerf! Double the points cost, triple the base unit size!

They needed nerfing, but this is a bit much. Does not bode well for how GW will proceed with "balancing". Looks like they're listening to internet hyperbole and have begun dishing out revenge nerfs.

Also note that you can only use Ynnari now by having one of the Ynnari HQs as Warlord. Not a huge deal, since Yvraine fits pretty well into most lists.

Considering that there are a lot of other point cost issues in the Indexes I think the reason for the Razorwing Flock cost change is the sole fact that another manufacturer was earning a lot of dough in providing Razorwing Flock alternatives.

By making the unit overpriced they cut out any sales for third party manufacturers(Zombicide producers in this case) plus they don't have to worry about casting a lot of Flocks in resin.

Eldarsif wrote:
Considering that there are a lot of other point cost issues in the Indexes I think the reason for the Razorwing Flock cost change is the sole fact that another manufacturer was earning a lot of dough in providing Razorwing Flock alternatives.

By making the unit overpriced they cut out any sales for third party manufacturers(Zombicide producers in this case) plus they don't have to worry about casting a lot of Flocks in resin.

New GW = (Old GW + Sneaky)

 Selym wrote:

Eldarsif wrote:
Considering that there are a lot of other point cost issues in the Indexes I think the reason for the Razorwing Flock cost change is the sole fact that another manufacturer was earning a lot of dough in providing Razorwing Flock alternatives.

By making the unit overpriced they cut out any sales for third party manufacturers(Zombicide producers in this case) plus they don't have to worry about casting a lot of Flocks in resin.

New GW = (Old GW + Sneaky)

New GW has just become much more business savvy.

To be honest I am glad they nerfed the Razorwing Flock(although they could have been a bit more modest). A bit tiring to see(or use) razorwing flocks on the battlefield. Doesn't help that before the FAQ you could use Razorwing Flocks as a cheap tax to get more Wave Serpents.

The 4++ save for the Visarch goes a long way towards making him fieldable. He is only lacking an aura now.
I think I will keep using him as an Autarch for now, though.

 Selym wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Selym wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).

I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.

The benefits of 8e: Finding a TFG is now WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier

Following rules is TFG?

Abusing rules specifically to waac is tfg. It's just more blatant from the start of the game than usual. Using that force org for not cheesing it up is fine.

I know there are as many definitions of "TFG" as their are people, but if *this* qualifies as "TFG" for you... I mean... I guess that makes you "TFG" to me lol

So a person takes a look at their army, identifies the most cheesy unit, finds the most points efficient way to spam it, and then smooshes everyone else with impunity. They aren't tfg, the people who think that's a bit much are themselves tfg. Congratulations, you have decided that the most common form of tfg is not a tfg, his opponents are.

So many things wrong with this statement...

1) Wave Serpents aren't "cheesy" they're just easily the best unit overall in our Codex.

2) In the example I gave the Wave Serpent is being "spammed" LESS efficiently because the units being used to unlock it are more expensive than the normal guardians.

3) Eldar Wave Serpents aren't smooshing anyone with impunity.

4) I'm not saying my opponents are TFG (???) I'm saying someone who complains about an army composition they arbitrarily dislike is TFG.

So I know this is general eldar but gw has just kicked the last breath out of my corsairs. I play what I would say is a very thematic air wing corsair army, using a vampire, Phoenix, 2 nightwing, jetbikes and a farseer (prince). But because storm ravens are to strong I auto lose the game if my opponent can do 18 wounds to t4 4+??? What the actual hell, I was really enjoying my army but I guess I'll just sell it because it's an auto lose to a single heavy bolter squad.

I just don't see how this nerf was called for like sure I get it the 5 Stormraven list is way to strong and hemlock are to strong but the other fliers really aren't bad now I just don't have an army.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Also note that you can only use Ynnari now by having one of the Ynnari HQs as Warlord. Not a huge deal, since Yvraine fits pretty well into most lists.

I'm actually struggling to think of any use for Ynnari characters in my army. I don't need them for either dragons or banshees. Jetbikes and any fast attack choices work better with jet farseer. Mech, serpents in particular, and everything in them benefits from autarch a lot. List made of tanks and flyers doesn't need SFD. But I like me some SFD on MSU troops and aspect warriors. Don't own any Wraithguard.

The only combo which is pretty much a given is Yvraine + Warlock + Dark Reapers.

But if I don't have anything on the level of 10 reapers squad or Wraithguard with D-Scythes, what's to use her for?

Yvraine does bring a cut-rate Guide, at least, and I would have thought you could land WotP on the Jetbikes from 18" away pretty easily.

I've been using the Yncarne so I'm not affected by this, though I'm not sure he's actually optimal. My only SfD units are him and Guardians, but I'm finding that WotP is really good even on Guardians. Maybe you don't need it for Fire Dragons because they're killing something every turn anyway, but if they're not consistently Soulbursting it's probably worth it.

 The Shadow wrote:
So, if several units of guardians in Serpents are the backbone of a good list, what are people fleshing it out with. Eldrad and Autarchs look good to me for the HQ slot and, as others have mentioned, Shadow Spectres and the two flyers are all solid units.

Rangers are OK as a Troop choice. I think they are slightly overcosted compared to SM Scouts but their deployment rules are handy and the ability to snipe characters and generate the odd Mortal Wound are useful. I don't think Sniper-heavy armies are going to be a thing in 8th but having one unit for any army that can take them is generally a good idea.

Fire Dragons and Dark Reapers are probably the best Aspect Warriors and provide a healthy dose of fire power. Banshees are better than they have been since 4th/5th given that they can finally assault out of their transport but S3 is still a hindrance. If you want to run them, make sure you have a Farseer to Doom their target or far too many hits will just bounce off.

Wraithguard and Wraithblades are both excellent. Although their toughness has been reduced slightly, the fact that they have 3 wounds each makes them very durable. I think I favour the D-scythe variants best. They are almost as good as Wraithcannons against large targets and far better against infantry. They can advance, fire (thanks to the D-scythes being Assault) and still auto-hit. If the enemy charge, they will face S10 auto-hitting overwatch. If they are in combat, they can simply walk out and fire freely thanks to their "Implacable" rule.

Wraithlords are priced competitively with Dreadnoughts. Either run them cheaply with a Glaive and flamers and just charge them towards the enemy as a distraction or tool them up with 2 heavy weaposn and use them to babysit a shooty unit like Reapers. Your enemy will think twice about Deep Striking close to that.

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Selym wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).

I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.

The benefits of 8e: Finding a TFG is now WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier

Following rules is TFG?

Abusing rules specifically to waac is tfg. It's just more blatant from the start of the game than usual. Using that force org for not cheesing it up is fine.

I know there are as many definitions of "TFG" as their are people, but if *this* qualifies as "TFG" for you... I mean... I guess that makes you "TFG" to me lol

So a person takes a look at their army, identifies the most cheesy unit, finds the most points efficient way to spam it, and then smooshes everyone else with impunity. They aren't tfg, the people who think that's a bit much are themselves tfg. Congratulations, you have decided that the most common form of tfg is not a tfg, his opponents are.

So many things wrong with this statement...

1) Wave Serpents aren't "cheesy" they're just easily the best unit overall in our Codex.

2) In the example I gave the Wave Serpent is being "spammed" LESS efficiently because the units being used to unlock it are more expensive than the normal guardians.

3) Eldar Wave Serpents aren't smooshing anyone with impunity.

4) I'm not saying my opponents are TFG (???) I'm saying someone who complains about an army composition they arbitrarily dislike is TFG.

Oh dear lord. I guess some people really can't see intent in anything they read. I was not trying to say that Wave Serpents are OP. I'm an Eldar player, I would be calling myself TFG by saying that. I was referring to the fact that the most points efficient lists are so stupid looking and so blatantly make use of nonsensical or imbalanced rules that it is now more obvious than ever that someone is trying to powergame. Look at recent tournament lists. They make no damn sense. Half of them don't even have models touching the ground.

Parachuting scouts with jump pack Captain leading flyers don't seem that weird in world of 40K. Neither do Harlequins, Ultramarines with transpots or Guardians in Serpents, really.

Previous edition with daemontaueldarinvisibleriptidewing was worse by far.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Neither do Harlequins, Ultramarines with transpots or Guardians in Serpents, really.

Those aren't what I'm referring to...

What else then? Invasion of extradimensional flaming heads? At least this edition they would be lead by Magnus or Daemon Princes, instead of Eldrad Ulthran supported by Riptide.

 Selym wrote:
Oh dear lord. I guess some people really can't see intent in anything they read. I was not trying to say that Wave Serpents are OP. I'm an Eldar player, I would be calling myself TFG by saying that. I was referring to the fact that the most points efficient lists are so stupid looking and so blatantly make use of nonsensical or imbalanced rules that it is now more obvious than ever that someone is trying to powergame. Look at recent tournament lists. They make no damn sense. Half of them don't even have models touching the ground.

I honestly think you (and anyone who thinks this is being TFG) should take a more objective view of things. Anyone coming into the game fresh with 8th edition won't have any of these preconceived ideas about how armies "should be," or what armies "make sense."

He is right. It states so right in the rules, and he is just explaining how the rules work.

Playing the game how it should be played, not how you imagine it to be played is not being a TFG.

 Kouzuki wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Oh dear lord. I guess some people really can't see intent in anything they read. I was not trying to say that Wave Serpents are OP. I'm an Eldar player, I would be calling myself TFG by saying that. I was referring to the fact that the most points efficient lists are so stupid looking and so blatantly make use of nonsensical or imbalanced rules that it is now more obvious than ever that someone is trying to powergame. Look at recent tournament lists. They make no damn sense. Half of them don't even have models touching the ground.

I honestly think you (and anyone who thinks this is being TFG) should take a more objective view of things. Anyone coming into the game fresh with 8th edition won't have any of these preconceived ideas about how armies "should be," or what armies "make sense."

He is right. It states so right in the rules, and he is just explaining how the rules work.

Playing the game how it should be played, not how you imagine it to be played is not being a TFG.

Naivety was the last thing I expected to see on Dakka!

 Selym wrote:

 Kouzuki wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Oh dear lord. I guess some people really can't see intent in anything they read. I was not trying to say that Wave Serpents are OP. I'm an Eldar player, I would be calling myself TFG by saying that. I was referring to the fact that the most points efficient lists are so stupid looking and so blatantly make use of nonsensical or imbalanced rules that it is now more obvious than ever that someone is trying to powergame. Look at recent tournament lists. They make no damn sense. Half of them don't even have models touching the ground.

I honestly think you (and anyone who thinks this is being TFG) should take a more objective view of things. Anyone coming into the game fresh with 8th edition won't have any of these preconceived ideas about how armies "should be," or what armies "make sense."

He is right. It states so right in the rules, and he is just explaining how the rules work.

Playing the game how it should be played, not how you imagine it to be played is not being a TFG.

Naivety was the last thing I expected to see on Dakka!

sure.

That said with the nerfs to flyers, as well as access to Ynnari limited, what are people looking at in terms of armies?

What do you all suspect a good balance of Hemlock - to - Ground Units for Eldar would be now?

I assume people will not focus the flyers as much anymore, so this perhaps reduces the necessity to stack them.

My standard list still works. I don't see that the nerf to flyers is a huge hit to us. I don't think people were really doing Hemlock spam -- they would have 3, maybe 4, right? And it's not feasible to try to table the Eldar player on the ground while ignoring the Hemlocks because their damage output is ridiculous and Wave Serpents are very durable. You've got to do something about the Hemlocks or you'll run out of things to kill Serpents with. I think I'm still aiming for 3 Hemlocks and 3-5 Serpents depending on their contents and my other units.

The Razorwing Jetfighter nerf hurts a little, if you were using those instead for some reason. Definitely makes them less appealing next to the Crimson Hunter.

Dionysodorus wrote:
Also note that you can only use Ynnari now by having one of the Ynnari HQs as Warlord. Not a huge deal, since Yvraine fits pretty well into most lists.

Where is this stated? I've looked over the erratas and can't see anything that says so explicitly.

In the new FAQ for XENOS 1

 Gangrel767 wrote:
In the new FAQ for XENOS 1

Do you mean this bit?

Xenos 1 FAQ wrote:If your army is Battle-forged,
Ynnari units can only be included in Detachments
in which all units have the Ynnari keyword .

To me that doesn't imply anything different. A Farseer would get the Ynnari keyword and so can be the required HQ of the detachment, right?

Cebalrai wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:
In the new FAQ for XENOS 1

Do you mean this bit?

Xenos 1 FAQ wrote:If your army is Battle-forged,
Ynnari units can only be included in Detachments
in which all units have the Ynnari keyword .

To me that doesn't imply anything different. A Farseer would get the Ynnari keyword and so can be the required HQ of the detachment, right?

No he mean this bit.

Page 76
– Army of the Reborn Replace this paragraph with the following:

If the Warlord of your army is either Yvraine, the Visarch or the Yncarne then – with the exception of
<Haemonculus Coven> units, Urien Rakarth, Drazhar, Mandrakes and the Avatar of Khaine – any Aeldari unit can also be Ynnari.
Any unit that is gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use any of the following abilities, and are not considered to have them: Ancient
Doom, Battle Focus, Rising Crescendo, Power from Pain.

Instead, Ynnari Infantry and Ynnari Biker units gain the Strength from Death ability, as described below.
If your army is Battle-forged, Ynnari units can only be included in Detachments in which all units have the Ynnari keyword

Yea, sorry I should have quoted it. Make sure you have version 1.1 of the FAQ. Came out yesterday I think.

Ah, I was looking at the 1.0 version of the FAQ. That explains everything, thank you.

I followed a link found on GW's own page (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Rules-Errata?_requestid=8394068#40k-errata), which is a bit weird since it's apparently not up to date. I guess https://www.warhammer-community.com/warhammer-40000/ is the place to go instead?

yea warhammer community site. or their fb.