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Wyldcarde wrote:
Got a link for the FAQ nerfing the scorpion?

Scorpion was never nerfed... people just refused to accept the OBVIOUS copy/paste error as fact. Scorpion is still absolutely nasty and will kill most everything it targets in one round.

Ok got ya. The fact that it is 3 damage instead of d6?

But yeah. Super nasty still.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Ok got ya. The fact that it is 3 damage instead of d6?

But yeah. Super nasty still.

Yeah sorry I can't link the FAQ at the moment. Essentially the pulsar does 3D.

The txt used to read... on a wound roll of 6+ inflict 2d6D instead of d6D. (which doesn't make anysense... until you see its the exact same text that was on the cobra's weapon...)

The txt now reads.. on a wound roll of 6+ inflict 6D instead of 3D. (which is arguably better... it doesn't have the max damage output.. but a static amount of damage is reliable.. and you are getting 4d6 shots of it.. )

Yeah exactly. I almost prefer it like that as most things will die just fine from the set damage. At least that way it mitigates the "roll all 1s" chance.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Wyldcarde wrote:
Ok got ya. The fact that it is 3 damage instead of d6?

But yeah. Super nasty still.

Yeah sorry I can't link the FAQ at the moment. Essentially the pulsar does 3D.

The txt used to read... on a wound roll of 6+ inflict 2d6D instead of d6D. (which doesn't make anysense... until you see its the exact same text that was on the cobra's weapon...)

The txt now reads.. on a wound roll of 6+ inflict 6D instead of 3D. (which is arguably better... it doesn't have the max damage output.. but a static amount of damage is reliable.. and you are getting 4d6 shots of it.. )

Wait. GW REDUCED the amount of random in something? Wat.

(Well, it is FW...)

Hey guys, looking to expand my army. I have
Farseer
2 guardian squads
Wave serpent
5 wraithguard
Wraith lord
War walker

What would be best to pick up next? Going to spend about $100

TShelby wrote:
Hey guys, looking to expand my army. I have
Farseer
2 guardian squads
Wave serpent
5 wraithguard
Wraith lord
War walker

What would be best to pick up next? Going to spend about $100

A Hemlock / Crimson Hunters maybe

Another Serpent

Squad of Fire Dragons or Reapers

How do people think an Ulthwe army would do nowadays? I was thinking guardians, Warlocks, Farseers and War Walkers.

TShelby wrote:
Hey guys, looking to expand my army. I have
Farseer
2 guardian squads
Wave serpent
5 wraithguard
Wraith lord
War walker

What would be best to pick up next? Going to spend about $100

Get a third guardian squad and a second HQ (Warlock mb) for battalion detachments. More serpents and a hemlock seems solid advice.

pm713 wrote:
How do people think an Ulthwe army would do nowadays? I was thinking guardians, Warlocks, Farseers and War Walkers.

Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).

So if playing Ulthwe, I would definitley play it with a mechanised flavour. Guardians in Wave Serpents with a couple of Jetseers behind them to Doom targets. Keep your Guardians in their transports until the right moment to disembark 2 or 3 squads and all hose the same Doomed target. War Walkers can provide some decent supporting fire. Dark Reapers are fluffy based on the old EoT strike force list and very effective, particularly against aircraft.

Hemlocks are piloted by Psykers so would be fluffy for Ulthwe too and are one of the best aircraft in the game.

I think me and Spiders are cursed. Managed to keep them safe with Hemlock today (great combo), but they got charged by enemy transport and basically only Exarch with Spinneret rifle put one wound on overwatch. Battle was won without them.
FFS give them shooting after fallback.

Liked Spinneret rifle though. For +4 coins it is a good upgrade I think, especially for MSU squads. Also almost kept Shining spears alive for first turn - basically died to 22 Tau seeker missiles that put mortal wounds, which I had no defence against even with Hemlock + Fortune + Leadership buff (6 of 8 died and 2 died during morale phase).

Still won though due to great rolls on lances and Hemlock erasing/crippling unit a turn. What a broken plane, expecting more wounds against most things even when compared to "specialist" aspect Crimson Hunter.

 Karhedron wrote:

Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).

I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).

I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.

The benefits of 8e: Finding a TFG is now WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier

 Selym wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).

I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.

The benefits of 8e: Finding a TFG is now WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier

Following rules is TFG?

 Deathypoo wrote:
I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.

Sure, you don't need the Guardians but having 3 Troops unlocks the extra CPs from the Battalion detachment which is no bad thing. For 80 points you get 10 guys with machine pistols to go inside the Serpent. Serpents have respectable firepower but mass infantry control is not their strong point. Having a bunch of Guardians who can hop out at a moment's notice and hose 20 shuriken shots at nearby infantry and then sit on an objective is not a bad use of the points.

The Serpent keeps the Guardians safe until their firepower can be used at a good moment (ideally finishing off a damaged target) so that the Guardians do not have to face too much retaliation.

pm713 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).

I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.

The benefits of 8e: Finding a TFG is now WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier

Following rules is TFG?

Abusing rules specifically to waac is tfg. It's just more blatant from the start of the game than usual. Using that force org for not cheesing it up is fine.

I feel I'm missing something here, but I can't see why everyone is raving about Guardians and Wave Serpents...

So I see that Wave Serpents are good, don't get me wrong. They're a solid, mobile transport with decent firepower... but they always have been. I don't see anything special here that sets them apart. Sure, the ability to deal mortal wounds with the shield is good, but it's a one-shot deal that makes you lose the benefit of the shield. Good, but a far cry from the Serpents of the 6th edition codex. Now, I've only just got back from abroad and had a look at all the 8th edition stuff, so I'm not very familiar with how the new system works... Does the Wave Serpent have an unusually high number of wounds for the points cost or something?

As for Guardians, they literally haven't changed. A 12" Assault 2 Bladestorm weapon for 8 points. Again, it's good and, yes, you can, as people have been saying, combine it with Doom/Guide to really bring the pain, but that's nothing new either. I've literally been doing that since 4th edition when I was a kid. Are people just combining this with the Ynnari thing to get an extra turn of shooting? Because if so, that's a different kettle of fish entirely, in my opinion. It just seems to me that the trusty shuriken catapault is as good as it's ever been, but with Dire Avengers suffering a hefty price hike, and other popular options like Windriders and Spiders being (rightly so) nerfed slightly, people are just turning back to the guardians? Am I wrong?

Like I say, I feel I'm missing something here. I have literally just got the Index today, after all, and only read the core rules 3 days ago... Anyone care to enlighten me?

Everything in 'dex became more expensive, but guardians not, and serpents, concidering their increased durability and twin heavy weapon, also stayed cheap. The new Twin rule made serpent and similar transports like razorback all the more appealing.

Does the Wave Serpent have an unusually high number of wounds for the points cost or something?

Yeah. For example, take vypers or warwalkers. For 264 pts you can have 3 Vypers with 6 Shuriken cannons. Or for 286 pts you can have 2 serpents with equal amount of shuriken cannons, but you gain 8 more wounds, better toughness, better defensive rule and option to protect your troops. For 477 points you can get 6 bright lance shots. For 300 points you can take 6 bright lance shots for war walkers, but you also get 3 shuriken cannons (which is another 1.5 walkers) and 21 more wounds.
It is generally close all around, as guns have same price across the board, it turns out that taking Serpent with twin bright lance and shuriken cannon is a better choice of main battle tank than any other tank.

 The Shadow wrote:

So I see that Wave Serpents are good, don't get me wrong. They're a solid, mobile transport with decent firepower... but they always have been. I don't see anything special here that sets them apart.

Does the Wave Serpent have an unusually high number of wounds for the points cost or something?

Wave Serpents have 13 wounds and the SS reduces multi-Damage hits by 1 Damage. So they're one of the most durable things in the codex. They are also one of the killiest due to having batter AT firepower than the Fire Prism, better AI firepower than the Night Spinner, and better general firepower than the Falcon. While being fast and being the only transport in the army besides the Falcon (which has a tc of 5).

Basically, whatever an Aeldari unit can do, the WS can do better.

Except for the Hemlock, with its heavy D-Scythes and general flier-y-ness.

And Guardians are the cheapest way to unlock WS. And are also the best Troops selection in the army, due to DA's being severely overcosted.

WS are not all that powerful in the grand scheme of things, but if it's the best Aeldari unit for darn near everything it will be declared OP and will be spammed.

Ah ok that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I haven't played any games yet and only own the two Xenos Indicies so don't have a lot to compare to. I guess comparing to similar Eldar skimmer units the WS is a hell of a lot more durable.

And for the rest it sounds much the same as I'd suspected, other things suffering from price hikes. Not a case of them being so good, just of everything else having gotten worse I can see where the spam might come from

So, if several units of guardians in Serpents are the backbone of a good list, what are people fleshing it out with. Eldrad and Autarchs look good to me for the HQ slot and, as others have mentioned, Shadow Spectres and the two flyers are all solid units.

Wave Serpents are excellent relative to most other Eldar units. They're not really out of line with many things that other factions have, though.

Razorbacks shoot just as well (better if stationary) and are about as durable per point, but cost a lot less.

Vultures are generally more durable, are much faster, and shoot significantly better, but give up transport capacity (and it seems like lots of people are talking as if bringing Serpents with nothing inside them is a great idea).

Repressors cost the same as Razorbacks and are significantly more durable, and have 6 firing ports so end up shooting better than Serpents if there are Sisters inside.

Ghost Arks are a little more expensive and have their own special defensive rule that makes them incredible against lascannons and terrible against plasma (Serpents are the opposite). Ghost Arks shoot a little worse from 24" and a lot better from 12". Ghost Arks also bring back more Warriors.

Devilfish aren't great, but even here they're still T7 W12 with 12 S5 shots, and only cost a little more than Razorbacks if you don't count the gun drones that can disembark (generally when the Devilfish dies).

I don't know Chaos or Orks well enough and Tyranids don't really have a fast, shooty anti-infantry tank. But just in general basic transports are really strong in 8th.

 Selym wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).

I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.

The benefits of 8e: Finding a TFG is now WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier

Following rules is TFG?

Abusing rules specifically to waac is tfg. It's just more blatant from the start of the game than usual. Using that force org for not cheesing it up is fine.

I know there are as many definitions of "TFG" as their are people, but if *this* qualifies as "TFG" for you... I mean... I guess that makes you "TFG" to me lol

 Shadenuat wrote:
I think me and Spiders are cursed. Managed to keep them safe with Hemlock today (great combo), but they got charged by enemy transport and basically only Exarch with Spinneret rifle put one wound on overwatch. Battle was won without them.
FFS give them shooting after fallback.

Liked Spinneret rifle though. For +4 coins it is a good upgrade I think, especially for MSU squads. Also almost kept Shining spears alive for first turn - basically died to 22 Tau seeker missiles that put mortal wounds, which I had no defence against even with Hemlock + Fortune + Leadership buff (6 of 8 died and 2 died during morale phase).

Still won though due to great rolls on lances and Hemlock erasing/crippling unit a turn. What a broken plane, expecting more wounds against most things even when compared to "specialist" aspect Crimson Hunter.

The warp spiders using their jump generator can shoot after falling back as they gain fly.
Also, fortune gives you a save against mortal wounds. As it is similar to disgustingly resilient which was faqed to work against mortal wounds along with "all similar abilities". So you should have at least got the 5+ against mortal wounds.

Unfortunately shining spears are a huge threat so are likely to get shot a lot. I'd say a unit of 8 is too much for that very reason where they will lose 5 or 6 guys and the rest to morale.

They only gain Fly until end of the movement phase - which is FAQ material.

Fortune wasn't FAQed. It's tyranid rule which was FAQed, and then some people from BoLS theorised that Fortune should work same - but GW didn't change Fortune.

Unfortunately shining spears are a huge threat so are likely to get shot a lot. I'd say a unit of 8 is too much for that very reason where they will lose 5 or 6 guys and the rest to morale.

TBH if not for mortal wounds I think more than half of the squad could have survived that game.
If I had 2 units of 4 or 5 I would have lost my first turn to enemy during deploy - meaning no psychic protection from Hemlock or Farseer for anything, etc.

Devilfish aren't great

They are pretty bad. With drones and seeker missiles they cost 6 points less than Wave Serpent with 3 shuriken cannons, and have worse BS. Since Tau can for the most part only focus fire things when good amount of markerlights are in or during Kauyon (when whole army gets glued to one place), they are stuck with it for most of the game. And drones nowadays count as separate unit for all intent, like KP and proccing SfD.

Looking at the wave serpent in my games.....you will find that only a couple wounds come off from small arms fire.

So in actual game play it takes about 4 or 5 shots to kill it. With the reducing rule that equates to about 4 or 5 extra wounds. So it is equal to a land raider to kill but the cost is so much less.

I used guardians once and they managed to kill 2 marines even with a shuriken canon upgrade. I hope others are rolling stellar cause they severely underperformed and were about useless against a unit of Templars. The War Walker was better at tying up that unit in cc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a side note the howling banshees have been sweet vs cc units.
Tyranids especially. If the enemy wants to get in hth, then they wont fall back.
So if you charge first and do your damage, then next turn they charge in, Sure they get 1 fight phase in, then you go, then they go, then the autarch goes, and so on. I found them very good to take down a Tyranid Hive Guard. Sure they all died. But the lone Tyrant then fell to Fire Dragons very easily.

Everyone was amazed how in one turn the fire dragons, smite, and wave serpents cleaned house. No more HQ and the swarms fled to morale phase. I love Banshees.

I actually use 5 banshees as my Serpent tax and to build up cheap Vanguard. They cost same as 10 Guardians but are more fun to play. That's 4+2 wounds with 4+ saves against 10 5+.

 Shadenuat wrote:

They are pretty bad. With drones and seeker missiles they cost 6 points less than Wave Serpent with 3 shuriken cannons, and have worse BS. Since Tau can for the most part only focus fire things when good amount of markerlights are in or during Kauyon (when whole army gets glued to one place), they are stuck with it for most of the game. And drones nowadays count as separate unit for all intents, like KP and proccing SfD.

I didn't think that people were taking the Seeker Missiles. Regardless, they're still expecting to land 6 S5 hits compared to the Serpent's 6 S6 hits. Now, the shuriken rule is really nice and, like I said, Devilfish are a step below all the others, but this at least seems to be in the same ballpark given that you recover the gun drones when the Devilfish dies and gun drones are generally thought to be worth their points on their own. Like, it'd be really cool if Serpents automatically spat out 2 Guardians when they died. Kill Points are a problem but if you're playing rulebook kill points then Tau are just doomed regardless.

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Selym wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

Guardians are what they have always been. The new edition has made them slightly tougher as they now get a 5+ save against bolters and even a 6+ against heavy bolters and assault cannons. Their main strength though is that they fulfil the Troop tax and unlock Wave Serpents. Warlocks squad leaders are slightly more useful now that you can choose their powers (which they can usually cast rather than just taking them as batteries for your Farseers).

I keep seeing this crop up so I want to point it out... you don't need guardians (or any other infantry) to unlock Wave Serpents. Every detachment slot you fill unlocks a Dedicated Transport slot... If you go with a spearhead detachment and take a Wraithlord, a Night Spinner, a War Walker, and a Skyrunner Autarch for HQ, you can take four Wave Serpents.

The benefits of 8e: Finding a TFG is now WAAAAAAAAAAAY easier

Following rules is TFG?

Abusing rules specifically to waac is tfg. It's just more blatant from the start of the game than usual. Using that force org for not cheesing it up is fine.

I know there are as many definitions of "TFG" as their are people, but if *this* qualifies as "TFG" for you... I mean... I guess that makes you "TFG" to me lol

So a person takes a look at their army, identifies the most cheesy unit, finds the most points efficient way to spam it, and then smooshes everyone else with impunity. They aren't tfg, the people who think that's a bit much are themselves tfg. Congratulations, you have decided that the most common form of tfg is not a tfg, his opponents are.

 Shadenuat wrote:
I actually use 5 banshees as my Serpent tax and to build up cheap Vanguard. They cost same as 10 Guardians but are more fun to play. That's 4+2 wounds with 4+ saves against 10 5+.

It's worth noting that guardians can tank hits on the weapon platform. It has a 3+ save, 2+ in cover. The only downside being if you lose one wound it takes the rest of the wounds from then on.

But still only has to save 3 guardians that would have otherwise died to make its points back.

So you find Striking Scorpions overcosted at 19 points?
You get 3 attacks, 2 wounds, T 4 deepstriking Reivers with cool no Overwatch grenades for 20 points.
They are better at everything except having Mandiblasters :(