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I still like the one of whirldwind. But I fight orks a lot so that might colour my perspective. Also, you do not have to use indirect fire. You can just shoot it regularly if that happens to be better.

Because I play a crimson fist build focusing on marching termies to the mid objektive and doing the bolster barricades action, I usually run a landspeeder to pop up in front of them to move block t 1 charges vs some fast armies.

I feel they are good. If I could run the land speeder storm without scouts id take that one every time.

I was very disappointed they didn't lower the Whirlwind points. It was overcosted before and now that everything else got cheaper in comparison...Given the indirect fire nerf I bet you could knock 20pts off the Whirlwind and it'd still not see play.

I do like the speeders. The attack bike is probably still better due to lower cost and core, but I used speeders if I want more than 3 fast melta to avoid buying any more attack bikes.

The Storm is stupidly amazing for the cost, it's only held back by that restriction.

So what I get is, that Storm would be nice without the Scouts xD

I have never played them and looking at the other options, they seem quite underwhelming, but are they really no option at all in combination with the speeder?

18" + disembark and taking action? Seems "useful" in a way ^^

LeRufus wrote:
So what I get is, that Storm would be nice without the Scouts xD

I have never played them and looking at the other options, they seem quite underwhelming, but are they really no option at all in combination with the speeder?

18" + disembark and taking action? Seems "useful" in a way ^^

I think the big issue is that, since scouts are in the Elites slot, taking them is usually denying you access to a primary offensive unit like Van Vets, Agressors, terminators, etc, or buffing characters like the apothecary or tech marine.

That, and while a storm speeder is "good for 50 points", its effective cost to field is 110 points if you count the scout squad you need to take it.

add to that the fact that while a 18" move+deploy for actions/table quarters to get VP is not bad per se, your relying on what is basically the squishiest unit the Codex to survive a full battle round to pull it off, so its a bit of a risky strategy unless the opponent chooses to let you score that because they absolutely NEED to deal with something else first. Causing 5 wounds to T4 4+ is trivial these days


I think if scouts were moved to Fast Attack (because of their deployment ability), they'd be a lot more viable, but its hard to justify taking them over all the other elite choices you have. They were only mostly popular in the past few editions as the cheapest Troops Tax option, or for sniping.

That said, maybe the new arks detachment might ease the issues with elite slots enough the scouts might see more play

Whirlwind Vengeance missiles became free... so that's you know.... something. You now have choice of ammo and you dont have to pay extra.

For what it's worth I always have plenty of Elite slots left over in my army, and I still never look twice at scouts.

they need to be troops to be viable, imo. Fast attack slots are even more sparse generally in arks than elites. It seems everyone goes elites as their priority and sometimes you can fit in something weird there. fast attack? not so much, I feel. I always want some sort of speeder, outriders are salty at 105 and the attack bikes are just amazing. especially as one offs so it gets crowded real fast.

Scouts needs to become Troops again, and they should also get 2W - with a small price adjustment of course.

Scouts should've had the stipulation that you need another CORE Infantry unit if they wanted to avoid a TON of spam. I do agree troops is where they belong though.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Scouts should've had the stipulation that you need another CORE Infantry unit if they wanted to avoid a TON of spam. I do agree troops is where they belong though.

maybe some of the rules restrictions we've seen in other armies, where certain troops choices have a "can take one per one other TROOPS unit" like cultists or tzanngor in Tsons, or the "cannot be used to fill a compulsory choice" rule like Nurglings have. Either of those would allow you to move them back to troops with minimal effect on the "troops tax" aspect that drove them to Elties in the 1st place.

What drove them to Elites is GW not knowing how to write rules

EviscerationPlague wrote:
What drove them to Elites is GW not knowing how to write rules

I am afraid that is the case... ^^
But yes, a small alteration to their rules would give them so much love...

To come to another topic:

Playing Raven Guard (I know, it is not a strong chapter but I love them... ) do you guys think Eliminators with Las Fusil or Sniper Rifles would be the better choice?

So far I field one Unit with 1xBolt Rifle for Movement and 2x Las Fusil and one Unit with 3x Sniper Rifle (Sergeant has the Relic Bullets)
But maybe the same unit twice is better? (I run also Eradicators, 2 Attack Bikes with MM and Ass.Centurions with Melter)

Any ideas on that?

You basically need to ask yourself "Am I trying to snipe characters or not?" If so, then I would go for 2 squads of bolt rifle eliminators. 1 squad is just not enough most of the time to down a character.

If you're not interested in sniping characters than the lasfusil is better by pretty much any metric.

LeRufus wrote:


To come to another topic:

Playing Raven Guard (I know, it is not a strong chapter but I love them... ) do you guys think Eliminators with Las Fusil or Sniper Rifles would be the better choice?

So far I field one Unit with 1xBolt Rifle for Movement and 2x Las Fusil and one Unit with 3x Sniper Rifle (Sergeant has the Relic Bullets)
But maybe the same unit twice is better? (I run also Eradicators, 2 Attack Bikes with MM and Ass.Centurions with Melter)

Any ideas on that?

Well, I guess the real question is: "Is this setup working for you?"
If it is, does it really matter what anyone else thinks is better?

Every setup would be working for me, what I am after is experience from others and through that PROBABLY becoming better in my choices of units, as I am "fairly" new with my 1-2 years of playing.

There might be a case of "too much anti tank" etc. and that is something I appreciate to know.

Ultimately it depends if you're playing with Nephilim (which isn't character friendly) or anything prior.

Not much to talk about right now, so imma just post the list I'll be using in a couple of weeks. I've made mention of using Minotaurs as a Dark Angels successor so Moloc gets the Inner Circle benefit. Let's begin:

Arks of Omen Detachment: Elite Compulsory

HQ:
×1 Asterion Moloc
×1 Master of Sanctity Interrogator Chaplain w/ Jump Pack
. Warlord Trait - Iron Resolve
. Paragon of the Chapter - Inexorable
. Relic - Benediction of Fury
. Litanies - Mantra of Strength, Litany of Faith
×1 Terminator Captain
. Thunder Hammer
. Honoured by The Rock - Foe Smiter
. Hero of the Chapter - Storm of Fire
×1 Chief Phobos Librarian
. Aversion, Trephination, Mind Wipe

Elites:
×5 Deathwing
. 5 TH/SS, 1 Cyclone
×5 Deathwing
. 5 TH/SS, 1 Cyclone
×5 Deathwing
. 5 TH/SS, 1 Cyclone
×5 Relic
. 4 Combi-Bolter, 1 Autocannon, 1 Grenade Harness
. 4 Power Fist, Chainfist on Sergeant
×5 Relic
. 4 Combi-Bolter, 1 Autocannon, 1 Grenade Harness
. 4 Power Fist, Chainfist on Sergeant
×5 Relic
. 4 Combi-Bolter, 1 Autocannon, 1 Grenade Harness
. 4 Power Fist, Chainfist on Sergeant

No slot:
×5 Deathwing Command
. 4 Storm Bolter + Power Fist, Cyclone
. TH/SS on Sergeant
×1 Chapter Deathwing Ancient
. Storm Bolter + Power Fist
×1 Chief Deathwing Apothecary
×1 Chapter Deathwing Champion
. Hero of the Chapter - The Imperiums Sword
. Relic of the Chapter - Adamantine Mantle

List is kinda broken sometimes. Shooty Captain stays with the shooting Terminators at all times and buffs their shooting with the Warlord Trait he has, and Apothecary and/or Ancient are doing the same depending on what I think I want. Chap rushes up the board and casts Hate + Mantra, and you couple that with Asterion's aura to get a reroll charges adding +2". Librarian and Command Squad just kinda fill points because.
With Arks being FAQd to give the CP bonus for a pure Deathwing army, the pregame Strats should all be able to be met.

Have I missed anything?

How do people feel about the new dread/missile marines? From a rules/game PoV, I think the looks have been debated enough.

At 200 points for the dread with a pair of MMs is better across the board then the slightly cheeper shooty redemptor at everything but chaff clearing and extreme range.

35 ppm for the missile guys is a lot for a fragile body. Yes, you can hide them out of LoS, but miss out on half their firepower that way.

Anyone making room in their lists for these guys?

Missile dudes need to be cut by like 7 points. 175 is too much for the minimum squad. They're basically suffering from all the problems Hellblasters do.

Desolators are very overpriced, just like Hellblasters.

5 Devastators are 115 pts (23 ppm).

Ain't no way in hell 5 Desolators are worth 175 pts/35 ppm or 5 Hellblasters are worth 150 pts/30 ppm compared to Devastators with Missile Launchers/Plasma Cannons.

(Or in the case of Hellblasters, you can literally take Sternguard with Combi-Plasma for 20 ppm instead.)

If we use Devastators/Sternguard as a foundation, even taking into account the fact that Dev's only have 4 heavy weapons, 5 Desolators should be 130-140 pts (26-28 ppm) and 5 Hellblasters should be 110-120 pts (22-24 ppm)

I might run the Desolation guys with Azrael giving them rerolls; they basically have Dark Lances if you take the krak missiles and are in Dev doctrine. I do agree that they are overcosted though; 30ppm at most would feel more fair for what you're getting (should actually be less, but...eh). The Dread looks solid though, especially for chapters like Space Wolves/Blood Angels. Claws all the way on him; the fists are terrible in comparison, and absolutely take the MM on the nipple mounts to make him deadly.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I might run the Desolation guys with Azrael giving them rerolls; they basically have Dark Lances if you take the krak missiles and are in Dev doctrine. I do agree that they are overcosted though; 30ppm at most would feel more fair for what you're getting (should actually be less, but...eh). The Dread looks solid though, especially for chapters like Space Wolves/Blood Angels. Claws all the way on him; the fists are terrible in comparison, and absolutely take the MM on the nipple mounts to make him deadly.

I’m not sold on the claws being an auto-take.

For the basic smash, they are the same as the fist with and extra pip of AP. Nice, but not a drastic improvement.
And you get the sweep attack. Which is good for 1 wound things, but anything 2W (so all MEQ these days) you probably just want to crump them with the big attack.
So the only time you want to sweep is chaff clearing. But to take the claws over the fist, you give up a pair of TL bolt rifles. Which also do a number on chaff units, and can do it at range.

It might just be my Ultramarine bias, other chapters might get more or less out of them. I spend as much time in the tac docrine as I can, so can get some good use out of those guns. And they give the dread flexibility, which I like.

 Nevelon wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I might run the Desolation guys with Azrael giving them rerolls; they basically have Dark Lances if you take the krak missiles and are in Dev doctrine. I do agree that they are overcosted though; 30ppm at most would feel more fair for what you're getting (should actually be less, but...eh). The Dread looks solid though, especially for chapters like Space Wolves/Blood Angels. Claws all the way on him; the fists are terrible in comparison, and absolutely take the MM on the nipple mounts to make him deadly.

I’m not sold on the claws being an auto-take.

For the basic smash, they are the same as the fist with and extra pip of AP. Nice, but not a drastic improvement.
And you get the sweep attack. Which is good for 1 wound things, but anything 2W (so all MEQ these days) you probably just want to crump them with the big attack.
So the only time you want to sweep is chaff clearing. But to take the claws over the fist, you give up a pair of TL bolt rifles. Which also do a number on chaff units, and can do it at range.

It might just be my Ultramarine bias, other chapters might get more or less out of them. I spend as much time in the tac docrine as I can, so can get some good use out of those guns. And they give the dread flexibility, which I like.

I'm pretty sure the claws get to reroll wounds, which is huge against bigger targets and lets the dread potentially punch above its weight class (very useful vs. T8+ targets like big Knights and Leman Russes/Rogal Dorns/Land Fortresses). Throw in the melta shots and it can pretty much down anything in a single turn (on good dice or with some buffs). Chaff clearing isn't what this guy is about, which is part of why I rate the fists poorly. A few bolter shots aren't really going to matter; if you want chaff clearing, the Gladiator Reaper is right there. Having the sweep option is nice if your opponent tries to tarpit your dread with cheap bodies though.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I might run the Desolation guys with Azrael giving them rerolls; they basically have Dark Lances if you take the krak missiles and are in Dev doctrine. I do agree that they are overcosted though; 30ppm at most would feel more fair for what you're getting (should actually be less, but...eh). The Dread looks solid though, especially for chapters like Space Wolves/Blood Angels. Claws all the way on him; the fists are terrible in comparison, and absolutely take the MM on the nipple mounts to make him deadly.

I’m not sold on the claws being an auto-take.

For the basic smash, they are the same as the fist with and extra pip of AP. Nice, but not a drastic improvement.
And you get the sweep attack. Which is good for 1 wound things, but anything 2W (so all MEQ these days) you probably just want to crump them with the big attack.
So the only time you want to sweep is chaff clearing. But to take the claws over the fist, you give up a pair of TL bolt rifles. Which also do a number on chaff units, and can do it at range.

It might just be my Ultramarine bias, other chapters might get more or less out of them. I spend as much time in the tac docrine as I can, so can get some good use out of those guns. And they give the dread flexibility, which I like.

I'm pretty sure the claws get to reroll wounds, which is huge against bigger targets and lets the dread potentially punch above its weight class (very useful vs. T8+ targets like big Knights and Leman Russes/Rogal Dorns/Land Fortresses). Throw in the melta shots and it can pretty much down anything in a single turn (on good dice or with some buffs). Chaff clearing isn't what this guy is about, which is part of why I rate the fists poorly. A few bolter shots aren't really going to matter; if you want chaff clearing, the Gladiator Reaper is right there. Having the sweep option is nice if your opponent tries to tarpit your dread with cheap bodies though.

The claws do get rerolls, but only on the smash profile I think. Bolters/Fists loadout is pretty much equivalent to a stock gatling cannon Redemptor, Claws/Melta is much more threatening and makes best use of the Brutalis' extra speed.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

I'm pretty sure the claws get to reroll wounds, which is huge against bigger targets and lets the dread potentially punch above its weight class (very useful vs. T8+ targets like big Knights and Leman Russes/Rogal Dorns/Land Fortresses).

If the dread can get into melee. Killing something with T7 W13 is no big deal.

I did miss the re-rolls on the strike. That is a nice perk if worried about hard targets.

All the Agastus datasheets are now up for download. Gotta love GW's commitment to not checking their own work, new Lieutenant datasheet re-introduces points for wargear, so the beloved Primaris Lt is now more expensive than a Captain if you take any of the fancy toys.

 Nevelon wrote:
I did miss the re-rolls on the strike. That is a nice perk if worried about hard targets.

It's gonna be S16 though. Most targets are gonna be wounded on a 2+ to begin with, so is the reroll to wound really needed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait was it it S14?

It is S14. Not all wargear is free for space marines, but the lieutenant cost is the same as in the MFM.

 Insularum wrote:
All the Agastus datasheets are now up for download. Gotta love GW's commitment to not checking their own work, new Lieutenant datasheet re-introduces points for wargear, so the beloved Primaris Lt is now more expensive than a Captain if you take any of the fancy toys.

On the Warhammer app, or somewhere else?