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Ok ... still coming up to speed ... and want to run my thoughts past folks.

Just getting back into the game, and while I've not played 40k in a while I've played other competitive games quite a bit. As I started w/ my SM and CSM, I'm repainting / restructuring and I basically want to have options - but headed towards a few likely things I'll play. Reading TL was great, as it gave the CSM some options I felt the SM had straight in their codex, but they mostly ... specialize / focus / mandate. I wish they were a wee bit better - and I understand I may be reading some of these wrong since I've got little current experience. Still, these were my reactions when reading through.

Basically, I'm repainting / reorganizing and while ultimately I'm going to paint and build minis I think look cool, I want to do so with a mindset of what's useful and not just pointless to play. It may not dictate my entire palette, but if I want to start putting marks on things (or not) or mounting icons (or not) I want to be a bit purposeful.


Black Legion
- Hate on everyone is ... ok. Just melee right? VOTLW is decent, ability to take any mark is decent.
- CAD gets love w/ the troops boost .. and loses much of it it w/ the speartip (though it is weighted towards chosen/ terms - loses obsec on the warband)
- Crusader is ok on a melee force; fear is largely ignorable
- First turn deep strike looks like fun, but what about your other deep strikers? Relying on dimensional key, etc. are things that put too much of the game on variance and chance
- Best thing here is deep strike and the sub-units like the Cabal, Chosen, etc. If you could run JUST those w/o a warband it might be nice (then a CAD for ObSec)
VERDICT: I think if I'm doing this I'm only building a Cabal or Deep Strikers. I may build / paint out a minimal warband and consider a bunch of terms / chosen and a few sorcs if I want to run this.

Alpha Legion
- My all time favorite ... but I don't want to run cultists
- Love the infiltrate, wish it were not so easy to block.
- One turn of shrouded and the cultist gimmick doesn't seem like enough for me on the Insurgency Force
- If I run these, I'd run a CAD. If I had shrouded or stealth the whole game or some guys with scout, I might consider running a Warband. Or Fearless. Or if I could guarantee the Expert Timing warlord trait.
- Mindveil looks incredible
VERDICT: May build out a CAD of these guys anyway, though the Fallen are Bogarting in on what I want to do w/ Alpha Legion hard anyway. The idea of a charging unit of chosen who mindveil out the next turn, fire off some meltas then charge again amuses me.

Iron Warriors
- My SM are leaning hard towards Iron Hands. These guys look like a poor man's version w/ FNP but no ATSKNF.
- Obliterators as troops could be fun. Same w/ Tank Hunter.
- The "barrage" and "fortification" stuff is both fun, but limited. Sure, I'd love to rock multiple Vindicators and do the barragy thing, and I'd like to think I can camp fortifications every fight - but I don't think that's very practical even w/ the Stronghold of Chaos thing ... you still need a warband (and not a CAD).
- If I could do a Fist of the Gods or Cult of Destruction as a primary, I'd consider a Grand Company (plus a CAD maybe w/ Havoks)
VERDICT: Might be a fun CAD to augment a bigger force, but too close to SM options so pass. A fleshmetal demon would be amusing ...


Night Lords
- Fear on its own is lame, but Stealth isn't horrid. Night Vision is situational, but at least the Murder Talon makes that a controllable aspect.
- The Raptors as troops are good - and unlike the Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors, it's reflected in their decurion - you can take a mostly raptor force.
- I wish Terror Tactics was not just a penalty to fear tests; it would be nice if it also helped w/ the Warp Talon Blind init-check, then you could at least have a tactic to build around that wasn't fear.
- Rerolling charges isn't horrible, and Nocturnal Warfare (which helps w/ your Night Vision by ensuring Night Fighting) is nice.
VERDICT: These guys are at least tight in what they do, even if it is not that useful. If Terror Tactics or Cacophonic War Cries could give a penalty to the blind check or cause some other check (like pinning), or if the blind check was on a charge and not just arriving from Deep Strike, I could see it.

Word Bearers
-Called-out and ostracized for worshiping the Emperor, I wonder how butt-hurt they are now that half the IoM worships him now?
- Possessed ... ugh ... tactical inflexibility ... randomness ...
- Summoning gimmick; another rolling-tide fill-the-table option (ie, exploding cultists, plague zombies) .. can people just nix your summons easily? Seems like a win-big, lose-big and that's no fun. Literally this unit seems to be all about Unholy Pact.
- I do like Profane Zeal but I'm not sure I can pack enough Apostles in to get Zealot on everyone.
- Grand Host gets a cultist blob if you want as a force option. Yay? Crusader is ok if you're building melee-melee-melee but I don't think it's enough to mandate the Grand Host.
VERDICT: I'm not interested in a summoner warband, and (though I'd like that) and even if you build hard melee, I don't think Crusading Zealots are going to be stronger than Khorne or Slaanesh mechanically - so the only reason for Word Bearers is back to the summoner blob.

World Eaters
Never a Khorne fan, but I see their appeal.
- Fearless, Furious Charge and Admantine Will are decent adds.
- Blood Mad is bad ass on the Butcherhorde. It's like aggressive barbarian scouting.
VERDICT: - Melee isn't my thing, and I understand it's generally in a poorer spot but it seems like you can build a very aggressive, very fast-paced force here w/o a CAD. Can you reign in your own bloodthirstiness to not skip objectives?

Thousand Sons
Skip. It's like a completely different set of models and my stuff is more generic. I can still paint generic to look like the others, but now these guys are all special troops (Scarab Terminators, Rubricae, etc.)
- Decent, but these guys are basically no longer CSM. Their FOC choices aren't even the normal Warband, Raptor Talon, etc. it's basically their custom stuff + some vehicles.
- There does seem to be room to put a bunch of psykers on the table and optimize your invuln save, esp. on GDs.
VERDICT: Pass. Looks nifty and fun, but not for me. Honestly, it's like the Space Wolves or Harlequin of CSM - same core origin but just completely different units gone theme-heavy.

Death Guard
Not my historic favorite, but I can't help but think these guys are just super strong.
- Fearless, T+1, FNP. Seriously? T+1 helps nearly all the time, FNP helps nearly all the time - not super situational like fear, etc.
- Can rock the plasma.
- Oh yeah, relentless.
- Since you can do a Warband and not a Plague Colony, this just seems like a much better way to get your bang for your buck. Is this 2 CSM squads, 1 bike, 2 havok, 1 term by default for everyone?
- Benefits of the Vectorium are good and make the existing predictable stuff better .. an additional FNP pip and shrouded from ranged fire.
VERDICT: I can't help but see these guys as the best option.

Emperor's Children
Loved these ages ago. Would like to see about using them again.
- Fearless, FNP (6) and +1 init are good. Option for 2 more FNP pips on an icon is also good, giving you some point control. Big unit, sure! Avoid on smaller unit for lower taxes, etc.
- Can also rock the plasma.
- Drugs on the Rapture Battalion look great ... for melee.
- The Kakaphoni looks incredibly useful ... if you do the whole thing. That's like 1k right there minimum ... and sadly the only way you can get it is on the Rapture Battalion. Unlike some others, you get the boost if you start the game w/ max units not "have" max units. Has anyone had success running this w/ CCW, a blastmaster and a doom siren on the Noise Marines? Do you need to have 10 to run a blastmaster, or can you with 5 (or really, 6)?
- This sonic vs. melee synergy mis-match sucks.
VERDICT: I really want to like this, but I'd be inclined to ditch sonic and focus on melee w/ a Warband for the drugs and objectives.


========================

I want to do Alpha Legion (and may) and wouldn't mind Night Lords, but Death Guard seems strongest by far, Emperor's Children a step behind (ignoring Noise Marines) and a wee bit cheaper.

Questions (I've not dug into psykers yet, so some of these may be there):
(1) Is there any way to make deep strike predictably reliable without extreme effort for a Night Lords force? Both ensuring you arrive, and safely?
(2) Is there a way to stack debuffs reasonably to get more out of the Warp Talons / Raptors (blind check, force more checks on the charge, etc.)?
(3) For Noise Marines, do you need a full 10 to take a blastmaster?
(4) Is there anything I'm not seeing that can make Alpha Legion infiltration stronger? Some folks just shut it down, right?
(5) How about a way to get more stealth, longer-shrouding or scout on Alpha Legion?
(6) Since Daemon Princes only have a single CCW, does that mean that they can only take a single weapon (as they mostly replace existing)?

Voodoogroves wrote:

Questions (I've not dug into psykers yet, so some of these may be there):
(1) Is there any way to make deep strike predictably reliable without extreme effort for a Night Lords force? Both ensuring you arrive, and safely?
(2) Is there a way to stack debuffs reasonably to get more out of the Warp Talons / Raptors (blind check, force more checks on the charge, etc.)?
(3) For Noise Marines, do you need a full 10 to take a blastmaster?
(4) Is there anything I'm not seeing that can make Alpha Legion infiltration stronger? Some folks just shut it down, right?
(5) How about a way to get more stealth, longer-shrouding or scout on Alpha Legion?
(6) Since Daemon Princes only have a single CCW, does that mean that they can only take a single weapon (as they mostly replace existing)?

First of all, running Alpha Legion doesn't mean running Cultists. I'm not a massive fan of their 40k rules (which is more like a Word Bearer ambush with all their Cultists and Dark Apostles), but remember, there's nothing stopping you from running a different Legion's tactic with Alpha Legion.

Secondly, I would never suggest looking at the power level if you want to build an army for longevity. If you want to compete at an upcoming tournament, and you have time and cash to spend, go for it, but I don't think that's a particularly healthy mindset. If your favourite, like mine, is the XXth, collect the XXth. 8th edition is coming out in a few months, and Tzeentch knows what will happen then. Maybe Eldar, SMs, and Tau suddenly become terrible, and it's a new dawn for the CSMs, Nids, Orks, and IG. Either way, you will have your Alpha Legion.

For question 4 and 5, I'd strongly suggest looking at the 30k ruleset for the Alpha Legion. It reflects their strategy of being flexible above all other, rather than just piling in behind bushes. A possibility is having two separate Alpha Legion forces, or playing Alpha Legion in 30k, but another Legion in 40k.

Voodoogroves wrote:

Questions (I've not dug into psykers yet, so some of these may be there):
(1) Is there any way to make deep strike predictably reliable without extreme effort for a Night Lords force? Both ensuring you arrive, and safely?
(2) Is there a way to stack debuffs reasonably to get more out of the Warp Talons / Raptors (blind check, force more checks on the charge, etc.)?
(3) For Noise Marines, do you need a full 10 to take a blastmaster?
(4) Is there anything I'm not seeing that can make Alpha Legion infiltration stronger? Some folks just shut it down, right?
(5) How about a way to get more stealth, longer-shrouding or scout on Alpha Legion?
(6) Since Daemon Princes only have a single CCW, does that mean that they can only take a single weapon (as they mostly replace existing)?

1) Not really. A World Eaters army with the Key can reliably get you your no scatter deepstrike, but that can be a bit of futzing around.
2) No more or less than any other unit. IIRC, there's a Slaaneshi power that drops init, but since the blind check is in movement, you'd need to tag them with it the turn before. Psycher buffs are about the only way to boost them, but that can be done for any unit.
3) No, 1 blastmaster per 5 (max of 2 BM's though IIRC)
4) Not really - If they've got servo skulls, grayfax or some other shenanigans, you're a bit stuck, but then, you don't have to deploy via infiltrate, you can always outflank or even pick a spot in your own DZ.
5) Psychers - Roll telepathy like everyone else for shrouded/invis/shriek and you're done. - Edit: Also warlord traits on strategic for stealth: Ruins and MTC: Ruins.
6) Yes.

 Drasius wrote:

Voodoogroves wrote:

Questions (I've not dug into psykers yet, so some of these may be there):
(1) Is there any way to make deep strike predictably reliable without extreme effort for a Night Lords force? Both ensuring you arrive, and safely?
(2) Is there a way to stack debuffs reasonably to get more out of the Warp Talons / Raptors (blind check, force more checks on the charge, etc.)?
(3) For Noise Marines, do you need a full 10 to take a blastmaster?
(4) Is there anything I'm not seeing that can make Alpha Legion infiltration stronger? Some folks just shut it down, right?
(5) How about a way to get more stealth, longer-shrouding or scout on Alpha Legion?
(6) Since Daemon Princes only have a single CCW, does that mean that they can only take a single weapon (as they mostly replace existing)?

1) Not really. A World Eaters army with the Key can reliably get you your no scatter deepstrike, but that can be a bit of futzing around.
2) No more or less than any other unit. IIRC, there's a Slaaneshi power that drops init, but since the blind check is in movement, you'd need to tag them with it the turn before. Psycher buffs are about the only way to boost them, but that can be done for any unit.
3) No, 1 blastmaster per 5 (max of 2 BM's though IIRC)
4) Not really - If they've got servo skulls, grayfax or some other shenanigans, you're a bit stuck, but then, you don't have to deploy via infiltrate, you can always outflank or even pick a spot in your own DZ.
5) Psychers - Roll telepathy like everyone else for shrouded/invis/shriek and you're done. - Edit: Also warlord traits on strategic for stealth: Ruins and MTC: Ruins.
6) Yes.

Just a note on 6. Black Legion relics don't have the wording that replaces a weapon so a BL prince could actually have two weapons. Doesn't mean much mind you because the vanilla weapons replace it's CCW, the black hand is pretty wasted ona prince anyway so that only leaves you with quicksilver to benefit from the +1 A. Though given the already high initiative on a prince, there's no benefit to taking this when the vanilla relics offer way more than +1A.

 ChazSexington wrote:

First of all, running Alpha Legion doesn't mean running Cultists. I'm not a massive fan of their 40k rules (which is more like a Word Bearer ambush with all their Cultists and Dark Apostles), but remember, there's nothing stopping you from running a different Legion's tactic with Alpha Legion.

Like calling them Alpha but using the Death Guard rules? Is that typically accepted?

If so I will just paint them non-specific and do whatever. I should pay attention to some squad build-out though (mix/match meltas, plasmas, flamers).

Secondly, I would never suggest looking at the power level if you want to build an army for longevity. If you want to compete at an upcoming tournament, and you have time and cash to spend, go for it, but I don't think that's a particularly healthy mindset. If your favourite, like mine, is the XXth, collect the XXth. 8th edition is coming out in a few months, and Tzeentch knows what will happen then. Maybe Eldar, SMs, and Tau suddenly become terrible, and it's a new dawn for the CSMs, Nids, Orks, and IG. Either way, you will have your Alpha Legion.

Yeah I hear you ;-) ... think rather that I'm inclined not to chase the best, but rather not fixate on the cool and play the worst.

For question 4 and 5, I'd strongly suggest looking at the 30k ruleset for the Alpha Legion. It reflects their strategy of being flexible above all other, rather than just piling in behind bushes. A possibility is having two separate Alpha Legion forces, or playing Alpha Legion in 30k, but another Legion in 40k.

How much model-portability is there from 30 to 40? Can you essentially use the same models, just in a different configuration? Or would people get bent if they had a too-40k-look or were painted non-spec for 30k, even if you called them "This is fancy company 24" or whatever?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roknar wrote:


Just a note on 6. Black Legion relics don't have the wording that replaces a weapon so a BL prince could actually have two weapons. Doesn't mean much mind you because the vanilla weapons replace it's CCW, the black hand is pretty wasted ona prince anyway so that only leaves you with quicksilver to benefit from the +1 A. Though given the already high initiative on a prince, there's no benefit to taking this when the vanilla relics offer way more than +1A.

Is that not errata' somewhere and made consistent? I ask because the Brand doesn't seem to have that wording either, yet I see folks saying it replaces a weapon.

It's because it's from a supplement. All vanilla relics replace a weapon with some exceptions, like the key (p.91). The Legions can simply buy relics from their list as long as they are allowed to buy relics in the first place. So it works the other way round. Rather than making exceptions as to what doesn't replace, they make exceptions for those relics that DO replace a weapon. The Black Legion relics however, were copied from the previous supplement and they never updated it to include those exceptions.

Thanks

I think the other bit is NOT just because I don't want to play the actively worst, but my 2nd favorite is Death Guard ... and I try to avoid jumping to the "best" when I enter / re-enter.

I think I've decided to build out models that are most portable first (standard types for CAD / warband) and I'm going to paint them not full-on like an existing and just call them a different warband and use whatever rules I feel like at the time.

I'm planning on running Alpha Legion for both 30k and 40k simply because out of all the Traitor Legions, they seem to be the least "corrupted" and therefor their looks probably haven't changed much.

Voodoogroves wrote:
I want to do Alpha Legion (and may) and wouldn't mind Night Lords, but Death Guard seems strongest by far, Emperor's Children a step behind (ignoring Noise Marines) and a wee bit cheaper.

Questions (I've not dug into psykers yet, so some of these may be there):
(1) Is there any way to make deep strike predictably reliable without extreme effort for a Night Lords force? Both ensuring you arrive, and safely?
(2) Is there a way to stack debuffs reasonably to get more out of the Warp Talons / Raptors (blind check, force more checks on the charge, etc.)?
(3) For Noise Marines, do you need a full 10 to take a blastmaster?
(4) Is there anything I'm not seeing that can make Alpha Legion infiltration stronger? Some folks just shut it down, right?
(5) How about a way to get more stealth, longer-shrouding or scout on Alpha Legion?
(6) Since Daemon Princes only have a single CCW, does that mean that they can only take a single weapon (as they mostly replace existing)?

(1) Short answer is no.

That's just part of Deep Striking. Even for Vanilla Space Marines, having that reliability and safety often will cost you points and required good positioning of and tactics for models already on the board. Your best bet is to find way to complement the units that Deep Strike. So looking at the Skyhammer Annihilation Force for Vanilla Marines example, making sure that I have units that are genuinely just as scary if not more scary that then Skyhammer that I can move into threat range in the turn the Skyhammer arrives is crucial. Rather than focusing on trying to make Deep Striking better, try finding way to complement it in order to make the Deep Striking units the most effective they can be when they actually arrive.


(2) < Don't know enough to answer >

(3) Yes. It's 1x Blastmaster per 10 Models to a maximum of 2x Blastmasters in a full-sized 20-man squad.

(4) < Don't know enough to answer >

(5) As mentioned earlier, Psykers who roll on Telepathy. Beyond that, no idea. Though I'll be honest - Boosting them would be nice, but spending your points to find other ways to complement your army sound better to me since it sounds like doing this sort of thing is an investment of points that probably won't pay off as much as you'd think.

(6) < Already been covered >

Voodoogroves wrote:

Like calling them Alpha but using the Death Guard rules? Is that typically accepted?

If so I will just paint them non-specific and do whatever. I should pay attention to some squad build-out though (mix/match meltas, plasmas, flamers).

I don't know what you mean by non-specific, but nobody I know would bat an eye if you used DG tactics with models with the Alpha Legion paint scheme, or vice versa. I would magnetise your special weapon dudes' arms though - it's REALLY easy and gives you all the options (well, it would if the CSM kit came with them).

Voodoogroves wrote:

Yeah I hear you ;-) ... think rather that I'm inclined not to chase the best, but rather not fixate on the cool and play the worst.

I completely understand you - everyone wants a fun and even game. However, that said, you can still pick the bottom-tier teams and have loads of fun with Orks, IG, 'Nids, and other CSMs. The balance between a standard Ork army and an Eldar top-tier list is non-existent, and IMHO, you are reliant on talking to your opponent prior to the game to ensure some semblance in this edition. E.g. the Alpha Legion can do MSU spam, but an Ultramarine SM Gladius Strike Force does it 100x better and will table you in maybe turn 1 due to their doctrines, grav, and (free) drop pods (giving the more points to spend on grav). You just tell your opponent what you're thinking of bringing and ask your opponent to be considerate.

Voodoogroves wrote:

How much model-portability is there from 30 to 40? Can you essentially use the same models, just in a different configuration? Or would people get bent if they had a too-40k-look or were painted non-spec for 30k, even if you called them "This is fancy company 24" or whatever?

...It depends. I originally wanted an army I could use in either, as I wanted a less mutated Alpha Legion force. I've since changed my mind, as very few CSM-specific models fit the 30k aesthetic. While you certainly can use the same models, it doesn't look quite as good, though I've not had any complaints. The configuration also matters, as 30k have access to a different range of weapons, in addition to being before the event where Abaddon jettisoned the land speeders, jetbikes, graviton weapons, drop pods, and the apothecaries.

If you wanted, there's always room for mixing up the bits. Buying a 30k tactical squad and 40k CSM squad and hashing out two squads would work, though their weapons would perhaps look a bit odd.

In regards to the Blastmasters the FAQ states

Page 99 – Noise Marines, Options
Change the third bullet point to ‘One Noise Marine may
replace his boltgun with a blastmaster at 30 pts/model.
If the squad numbers ten or more models, an additional
Noise Marine may replace his boltgun with a blastmaster
at 30 pts/model.’

Voodoogroves wrote:

Questions (I've not dug into psykers yet, so some of these may be there):
(1) Is there any way to make deep strike predictably reliable without extreme effort for a Night Lords force? Both ensuring you arrive, and safely?
(2) Is there a way to stack debuffs reasonably to get more out of the Warp Talons / Raptors (blind check, force more checks on the charge, etc.)?
(3) For Noise Marines, do you need a full 10 to take a blastmaster?
(4) Is there anything I'm not seeing that can make Alpha Legion infiltration stronger? Some folks just shut it down, right?
(5) How about a way to get more stealth, longer-shrouding or scout on Alpha Legion?
(6) Since Daemon Princes only have a single CCW, does that mean that they can only take a single weapon (as they mostly replace existing)?

(1) Generally speaking No. You could ally in black legion sorcabal with a key, get a big deathstar and fish for new marine powers like shifting worldscape or soulswap. They would allow 1-st turn charges. Or toy with a world eaters warband - less reliable than magic. But than you don't really need night lords.
(2) IIRC there is some sort of magic that lowers ini and probably plague marine stuff. There are some leadership debuffing options too. But none of this is worth the effort cause it's all extremely unreliable. And close to 100% of mellee enemies are immune to fear. Those who aren't are generally in trouble if you make it to combat with them with literally anything anywayz. Blind could be fun but than you need cursed earth or daemon banners to make warp talon's deepstrike more reliable. It's generally easier to simply invest points in killy/tough stuff.
(3) One blastmaster per 5. Also, it's arguable but i don't find blastmasters particularly useful for the points - you're better off with an awesome doom syren and a more close-ranged oriented squad. Shredding blasters and a syren are ok.
(4) Yes. It's just infiltrate. But you could also outflank with it when needed. Always take rhinos if you do infiltrate with a shooty csm/chosen squad. Will help with protection, scoring and getting into double-tap/melta range.
(5) You could ally in khorne daemonkin khornedogs for scouting with your IC. Khornedogs would LOVE the mindveil lord, sorc or even an apostle.
(6) You can't take multiple relics if that's what you're thinking.

Also, you underestimate iron warriors. Their cad is very potent. Solo Obliterator troops with tankhunting. Tzeench daemon prince with 2+ re-rollable armor. 6+++ is just a neat bonus. They're a great way of getting whatever fortification you might need for some of your other guyz - like a voidshield generator and still have a solid set of units without any tax at all. Or just add obli range support and an unmarked/dp IC to any csm list.

Thanks

My question on the blastmaster was essentially two fold ...
(A) for a CCW squad ... just a blastmaster and a siren, using the blastmaster to split fire (it has an assault option) and then charge a different unit (the one the rest of the squad fired at) ... useful and workable? That way most of the unit is benefiting from the Rapture drugs, and I'm getting a boost on the 2 sonic weapons w/o putting sonic on everyone (though it is only 12 or so more points).
(B) Or a simple no-upgrade unit w/ 2 heavy weapons (the blastmasters) sitting in a rhino. This is the standard "2 specials in a rhino" with the rest bare-bones gear. They have an option to fire while moving, or blast when stationary. Dunno if it is worth it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
On iron warriors - I do see the appeal, but for a small CAD not a full force (unless your basically running lots and lots of CADs - no real value to the special org since it has the warband tax unless you want lots of fortifications - right ?)

For the demon, that's a Demon Prince of Tzeentch w/ the fleshmetal. Wings, presumably. When you say "you can only take one relic" that's in response to the "one weapon to swap specifically" or a general "no character can have more than one relic"? I could see a winged DPoT with the Fleshmetal and some relic melee weapon, or just a psyker - is that how folks run them essentially? So a re-rollable (from daemon) 2+ (from fleshmetal) and the 5++ (from daemon)

How come no one talks about Word Bearers? The ability to summon on a 3+ seems extremely powerful.

I have a ton of extra demons and lost and damned, so putting together a Word Bearer warband wouldn't cost me that much (If I wanted to play a side army).

 Whitebeard wrote:
How come no one talks about Word Bearers? The ability to summon on a 3+ seems extremely powerful.

I have a ton of extra demons and lost and damned, so putting together a Word Bearer warband wouldn't cost me that much (If I wanted to play a side army).

Because they still aren't the best at summoning? You either have a sorcerer who still keeps suffering perils on any doubles or a DP who is 300ish points. Both are still out done by just allying a Herald of Tzeentch w/ Paradox with some Horrors

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Whitebeard wrote:
How come no one talks about Word Bearers? The ability to summon on a 3+ seems extremely powerful.

I have a ton of extra demons and lost and damned, so putting together a Word Bearer warband wouldn't cost me that much (If I wanted to play a side army).

Because they still aren't the best at summoning? You either have a sorcerer who still keeps suffering perils on any doubles or a DP who is 300ish points. Both are still out done by just allying a Herald of Tzeentch w/ Paradox with some Horrors

Pretty much this. And their meta-detachment seems a bit hit and miss.

Like, it's a fun fluffy concept to have several summoning Daemon Princes and lots of Possessed to maximise the Maelific Daemonology abilities....

Until you realise that base CSM possessed are god awful and that 300+ point Daemon Princes do not a reliable summoner make - consider that for one summon-Prince you can get about 3 Tzeentchian Heralds with some gifts....well...uh.....

Do you want 3 dice for your pool for summoning or do you want 6?

I guess that's true. Well, they get crusader!

Voodoogroves wrote:
the blastmaster

personally i find it a rather weak extremely overcosted weapon not worth the point investment. The heavy profile prevents your mid-ranged-oriented squad from moving and is just an ap3 small blast, the assault profile is a 2-shot heavy bolter. And it costs 30 pts. In an era of grav cannons, d weapons and scatlasers.

Thanks koooaei

For Word Bearers ... well first I just don't like them, and second I'm not so keen on summoner and fill-the-board spam. Not my style.

 koooaei wrote:

Voodoogroves wrote:
the blastmaster

personally i find it a rather weak extremely overcosted weapon not worth the point investment. The heavy profile prevents your mid-ranged-oriented squad from moving and is just an ap3 small blast, the assault profile is a 2-shot heavy bolter. And it costs 30 pts. In an era of grav cannons, d weapons and scatlasers.

It's just a shame that they passed up the opportunity to give something back to the 3rd ed Emperor's Children players...who were allowed to take Sonic Blasters on units in place of Bolters/Heavy Bolters and Blastmasters in place of Autocannons.

Would've been nice if some of them could have used their Sonic bikes, Havocs and Dreads again....