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I know there are a lot of threads and posts on here about the dislike for Gulliman, making plays on his name and the dislike of the Ultamarines for being to plain or Mary Sue. I first became interested in 40k in the 90s with the second edition. I was in my local comic shop looking at the models and the codexes and the Space Marines and codex Ultrarmarines caught my eye becoming my first army. As I read the 2nd edition codex and I learned more about the Ultramarines I liked them for several reasons, their colors and for the fact that Gulliman sounded like a pretty decent guy compared to some of the others in crappy universe and the Ultrarmarines came across as pretty good and noble. And as I learned more about the Space Marines in general I found myself liking the Ultrarmarines over some of the other chapters because they were plain space marines just trying to get a job done. Since my entrance into the 40k universe and starting with the Ultramarines I have gone on to collect other armies but I keep coming back to them and they are my largest army. My other armies include the Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard, and Chaos Space Marines.

Having chosen all "good" armies I wanted to choose someone who could be an opponent to the armies I already had. After looking at several different codexes I settled on Chaos Space Marines. After reading the 4th or 5th edition codex I decided on starting a Word Bearers army. I was trying to choose between the Word Bearers, Night Lords, and Thousand Sons because I liked all of their color schemes. I ended up choosing the Word Bearers because I found the fact that unlike the other Chaos Marines who killed their Chaplains the Word Bearers Chaplains joined them. While I was learning about the Chaos Space Marines I realized I really did not like the Black Legion or Abbadon. To me the Black Legion is too plain to vanilla of all the Chaos Space Marines. And I wish there would be less focus on them and Abbadon, I wish his followers and the chaos gods would abandon him because he keeps losing. To me Abbadon is kinda like Cobra Commander from the GI Joe Cartoon, he has big plans but he is always thwarted in the end. And in the 40k universe I think Chaos marines and the gods would get sick of that and look for someone else.

I find it interesting that on one side I like the Ultramarines for being plain but at the same time I dislike the Black Legion for the same reasons. And to all those who dislike the Ultramarines and Gulliman, I understand how you feel because I feel that way about the Black Legion and Abbadon.

1. The main focus is upon Abaddon and the black legion because they are one of the few warbands that has stayed together over the last 10k years and has even grown in size, they are also one of the few who actually have coherent plans as the rest of the warbands have devolved into mere chaos for the sake of chaos (which is great but it doesn't get stuff done).

3. If you think they're vanilla then you clearly don't know their fluff: the Black legion contains remnents of all of the Chaos legions and each warlord has their own plans in addition to the grand plan of the destruction of the Imperium. The legion itself is only losely held together by Abaddon's strength and the promise of eventual glory.

2. As of recent times we now know Abaddon has never lost, only getting closer to a larger goal. This could be retcon or maybe we are only now getting none Imperial Propaganda information (it's a conspiracy!).

3. Even if we say he has been losing all these years do you think anyone else could have done better? Abaddon could get replaced by a literal chaos God and GW would still find reasons for chaos to lose. Abaddon's 'armlessness is less to do with him as a character and more to do with early GW's inability to write villains properly.

I am quite the opposite to you: the Black Legion represented the 10k year hatred of the Imperium and the one of the few legions that didn't allow promises of rewards and power from clouding their goal to tear the Imperium a new one, whilst the Ultramarines came across as pretentious, 'heroes' that would look down upon those who didn't follow the Codex astartes. My view is probably scewed, the same as your view on the Black Legion, but I think this quote sums up my fealings towards the Ultramarines quite well:

"What would you know of struggle, Perfect Son? When have you fought against the mutilation of your mind? When have you had to do anything more than tally compliances and polish your armour?" [...] "The people of your world named you Great One. The people of mine called me Slave. Which one of us landed on a paradise of civilization to be raised by a foster father, Roboute? Which one of us was given armies to lead after training in the halls of the Macraggian high-riders? Which one of us inherited a strong, cultured kingdom? And which one of us had to rise up against a kingdom with nothing but a horde of starving slaves? Which one of us was a child enslaved on a world of monsters, with his brain cut up by carving knives? Listen to your blue-clad wretches yelling of courage and honour, courage and honour, courage and honour. Do you even know the meaning of those words? Courage is fighting the kingdom which enslaves you, no matter that their armies outnumber yours by ten-thousand to one. You know nothing of courage. Honour is resisting a tyrant when all others suckle and grow fat on the hypocrisy he feeds them. You know nothing of honour."

Angron addressing Roboute Guilliman during the Shadow Crusade.

I think calgar is cooler than rowboat. They both need to seriously do something about cato though; agemman should be the successor not some more 2nd company plot armour crap.

Pretty much all the perfection and plot armour crap the ultras are hated for can be attributed to the 2nd company.

 mrhappyface wrote:

2. As of recent times we now know Abaddon has never lost, only getting closer to a larger goal. This could be retcon or maybe we are only now getting none Imperial Propaganda information (it's a conspiracy!).

And how do we know this is more true than the Imperial propaganda?

I can't speak for everyone, but my main problem with the Ultramarines and Gulliman isn't that they're vanilla, but rather that, as you say, Gulliman sounded like a pretty decent guy and the Ultramarines come across as pretty good and noble.

Part of what originally hooked me on 40k was that it wasn't Good Guys vs Bad Guys, but rather Bad Guys vs Worse Guys. The main human faction was "The cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" and they were fighting for survival and dominance in a galaxy that nobody in their right mind would want to live in. Their opponents were all just as bad, if not worse.

I liked that the humans were ignorant savages using incredibly powerful technology that they did not understand. I liked that everything The Emperor and his Primarchs* had fought for had been twisted and corrupted by the Ecclesiarchy, resulting in something that would horrify the god that the humans of the Imperium think they are serving.
*Well, most of the Primarchs anyway.

I liked that the universe was so grimdark. I think there is a core element of silliness that actually makes 40k more fun, and everything being so over the top grimdark is part of that silliness.

So maybe everything's going to be fine, but I worry that Reboot will come back and set the Imperium straight. I hope not. It was fine him being relatively reasonable and secular when he was in stasis, but if 40k turns from Bad Guys vs Worse Guys into Flawed Good Guys vs Bad Guys it will make me sad. Who knows what will really happen.

Also, some of the resentment against Ultramarines came from them being so heavily featured (some would say favored) by GW for so many years, and I think many of the plays on Gulliman's name came from it being unusual to most English speakers. When they came out with the bit that all the other Legions and their successor chapters were just second stringers who wished they were Ultramarines and RG came back with some implications that there might be major changes I think the hate and fear just naturally spiked.

So yeah, I don't exactly hate the Ultramarines and RG. I don't think they need some deep, dark secret to be interesting. I think there is a somewhat justified amount of resentment and paranoia that has probably grown beyond what is truly reasonable.

bbekins wrote:
To me Abbadon is kinda like Cobra Commander from the GI Joe Cartoon, he has big plans but he is always thwarted in the end. And in the 40k universe I think Chaos marines and the gods would get sick of that and look for someone else.

I actually kinda like that about Abbadon and the Black Legion. It's the so bad it's good B-movie kind of stuff. It is trying to play it straight but comes off completely unintentionally ridiculous and is a better comedy for it. Unlike the Orks, which are often played up for laughs on purpose, Abbadon and Black Legion were handled without enough foresight for them not to look comical in a certain light. Abbadon and the Black Legion are the essence of Grimdark. I like that as they stay true to the irony of how Warhammer 40K started even if especially because of how straight the writers are trying to be now.

But that is one side of the coin with the forces of Chaos merely being the mustache twirling villains of an 80's action cartoon. GW have written chaos such a way they're basically D&D 3 Hit Die Monsters of the setting. On the other side of the coin, Abbadon has proven himself to be a far better leader than any. He managed to be top dog to the most cutthroat, insane and power-hungry warriors in the universe for 10,000 years. He has managed time and again to combine the forces of Chaos into a single purpose. A feat that really should be impossible given that Chaos Space Marine legions often hate each other as much as they hate the Imperium. On top of that, Abbadon doesn't sit back at the rear of his army. He leads from the front. I just don't see Roboute Guilliman with the same fervor and definitely without plot armor. Abbadon is performing the superhuman (and super space marine) feat of being a Primarch even though he not. With the return of Primarchs, that makes him the underdog. I kinda like the underdog, bad guy of a setting. You know he going to lose. Heck he might know he is going to lose, but he tries anyway.

As for the Black Legion, I don't see them as the vanilla Chaos Space Marine faction. Sure they are the largest legion and often the most featured. That is because they have their gak together and are the most versatile. They aren't pigeonholed into one specialty save maybe having excellent command and control compared to the other traitorous legions. It the CSM rules were better written, I could see the Black Legion being the CSM with the best synergies among their units (primarily Chosen and Terminators) showing their better leadership and knowledge of how to use the forces they have available being better than other CSM. But I highly doubt that GW will ever give the Black Legion that sort of coverage let alone the CSM in general.

Even without it, I really think black and gold Chaos power armor looks awesome.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

2. As of recent times we now know Abaddon has never lost, only getting closer to a larger goal. This could be retcon or maybe we are only now getting none Imperial Propaganda information (it's a conspiracy!).

And how do we know this is more true than the Imperial propaganda?

Well Abaddon does have the relics, ancient machines, ships, etc. to show for his efforts.

3. If you think they're vanilla then you clearly don't know their fluff: the Black legion contains remnents of all of the Chaos legions and each warlord has their own plans in addition to the grand plan of the destruction of the Imperium. The legion itself is only losely held together by Abaddon's strength and the promise of eventual glory.

To add to this while they could be considered vanilla because of the inability of the CSM codex, they are actually one of the most varied of the legions due to the fact that they contain a bit of everything. You have a Chaos Lord leading the Hounds of Abbadon being their Khorn Marked Branch, they've got a Possessed branch, Tzeentch, Slaanesh, entire sections dedicated to all that encompasses the warfare of Chaos. They've got more variety then the Mono god legions, and even the others.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
I can't speak for everyone, but my main problem with the Ultramarines and Gulliman isn't that they're vanilla, but rather that, as you say, Gulliman sounded like a pretty decent guy and the Ultramarines come across as pretty good and noble.

Part of what originally hooked me on 40k was that it wasn't Good Guys vs Bad Guys, but rather Bad Guys vs Worse Guys. The main human faction was "The cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable" and they were fighting for survival and dominance in a galaxy that nobody in their right mind would want to live in. Their opponents were all just as bad, if not worse.

Spoiler:

I liked that the humans were ignorant savages using incredibly powerful technology that they did not understand. I liked that everything The Emperor and his Primarchs* had fought for had been twisted and corrupted by the Ecclesiarchy, resulting in something that would horrify the god that the humans of the Imperium think they are serving.
*Well, most of the Primarchs anyway.

I liked that the universe was so grimdark. I think there is a core element of silliness that actually makes 40k more fun, and everything being so over the top grimdark is part of that silliness.

So maybe everything's going to be fine, but I worry that Reboot will come back and set the Imperium straight. I hope not. It was fine him being relatively reasonable and secular when he was in stasis, but if 40k turns from Bad Guys vs Worse Guys into Flawed Good Guys vs Bad Guys it will make me sad. Who knows what will really happen.

Also, some of the resentment against Ultramarines came from them being so heavily featured (some would say favored) by GW for so many years, and I think many of the plays on Gulliman's name came from it being unusual to most English speakers. When they came out with the bit that all the other Legions and their successor chapters were just second stringers who wished they were Ultramarines and RG came back with some implications that there might be major changes I think the hate and fear just naturally spiked.

So yeah, I don't exactly hate the Ultramarines and RG. I don't think they need some deep, dark secret to be interesting. I think there is a somewhat justified amount of resentment and paranoia that has probably grown beyond what is truly reasonable.

Yep, exactly as per my opinion!

Ultramarines are generic so that brings abit of hate. I always make fun of Roboute's name beause it sounds/looks dumb. Just like I make fun of Angron (hi, i'm angron and I'm angry), Curze (hi, I'm curze, i'm a bit cursed. You can call me night haunter though, wanna see my deviantart page? you can see my OC, Kurze the hedgehog!), Lion El-Jonson, etc. Also, a lot of ultramarines are snobby pricks who punish thinking outside of the box, relying on a set of rules that were set in place before even a lot of the threats i 40k showed up (nids, commies for example.) That being said, I do like the Ultramarines to a point, and like them immensely more in the Horus Heresy setting. I bought a small force to run with guilliman and a squad of Fallen in fact, something I never thought I'd do 2 months ago.

As for abbadon and chaos in general? I like them because they have classic tragic stories. A lot of the chaos characters were alive during the horus heresy and so we read their stories and falls to chaos. The first book I read about warhammer was galaxy in flames. I did not get into the hobby knowing Horus (though i had a feeling considering its called the HORUS heresy, lol) and Abbadon would fall so far and I think that colors my opinions.

Maybe Vanilla was the wrong term for the Black Legion. But to me they don't stand out because they are good at everything. They feel plain. Which is funny because I like the Ultramarines because they are plain marines, they don't have a curse like the Blood Angels or Space Wolves, or have a lot of specialist sub-groups like the Dark Angels. So I like my heroes plain and ordinary and my villains unique.

I don't like the fact that some of the newer fluff has tried to make the Ultramarines better than other Space Marines, the Matt Ward all space marines want to be Ultramarines. But I see that with the Black Legion as well, with other traitors joining the black legion and painting their armor black except for a shoulder pad.

Maybe the reason I don't like Abbadon is that he is poorly written. And that's why I don't understand why other traitors would flock to him. To me his seems like the 80's cartoon villain who constantly loses. He has big plans and seems to be on the verge of victory only to be defeated. I compared him to Cobra Commander earlier for having big plots or big fancy weapons and then having to retreat. I also have an image of him similar to Dr Claw from inspector gadget. As he retreats I can see him saying "Next time Imperium, next time" and petting some chaos creature that growls.

In my view of Chaos the gods would have abandoned him and tried elevating someone else in all this time. And another traitor in the Black Legion would have knocked him off and tried to run the show.....probably only to be knocked off and replaced by someone else.

Black Legion aren't painted to be superior to other legions. The reason other marines flock to Abaddon is because he gives them a reason to fight and the promise of glory.
You can't really compare loyalists and traitor legions like that. Traitors aren't bound by to duty like loyalists nor are they united in the same way.
The cult Legions don't care about mortal affairs. They are more or less mindless puppets to the whims of their patron gods. Their one and only concern is to impress and worship their gods.
Iron warriors and night lords just kind do their thing for the heck of it. Word bearers went full heretic, you never go full heretic and alpha legion are so split up they probably don't even know what's going on themselves.

Abaddon is fighting the war to end all wars and marines were quite literally created to wage war.
He offers them everything they need. Personal Glory, a cause to fight for and the kind of brotherhood you a only have in war.
You have to remember that chaos space marines aren't a bunch of simple minded lunatics.

There is also the fact that Abaddon is possibly the most powerful astartes ever. This guy has been doing this for ten thousand years while also fighting at the front.
And it's not like there haven't been attempts on his life. Be it from the imperium, his men or even from daemons, all failed with his vengeance being metal AF lol.
You DON'T want to cross him. Nevermind his countless daemonic pacts and the favour of all four gods.
And he does all this while remaining a non-primarch mortal, which, in a world where becoming an actual demigod is a thing, makes him the underdog.

That's what I like about abaddon too, he has a crystal clear vision of what he wants and the indomitable willpower to succeed at realizing it despite going against the odds.
He hasn't failed. He is a strategic mastermind and has the same charisma that his gene-father had. He has been paving the path to ultimate victory for the last 10k years. Something horus didn't have the luxury to do. The irony is that the same gods that enable all of this in the first place are going to be his downfall eventually.

Abaddon IS the Black Legion, without him they're only a rag tag band of csm fighting the imperium. Where he points, the galaxy burns. They don't have any special units to speak of or a particular type of warfare considering the legion consists of larger warbands under the command of their own warlords.
That gives them the image of being plain, so unless you can appreciate Abaddon, the Black Legion is going to appear pretty generic.

That was some good posting, Roknar!

I just saw this on facebook: