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Made in us
Hooded Inquisitorial Interrogator





I was browsing through the format changes in the 2017 ITC packet and came across one thing that was kinda odd. Anyone else notice that Elysium Drop Troops are now forbidden in ITC play? That one seemed somewhat out of the blue.

Anyone else notice anything else?
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin





East Bay, Ca, US

The angels of death powers are allowed but they basically neutered them heavily. And they flat out banned Shifting Worldscape.

For those interested, here is a link to the ITC rules:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/16nmBS2KZglu9JaGttpX_9lOYhYO2PQM47N8HvrsAA60/edit


Geokinesis Discipline:
In ITC format events, modify the Phase Form psychic power as follows: the target of Phase Form gains the benefit of either Ignores Cover or ignores Line of Sight.

Shifting Worldscape: this power is not used in ITC format events.

Fulmination Discipline:
Electrodisplacement: the target(s) of this power may not charge after using the Electrodisplacement psychic power. Further, if the target unit(s) were locked in close combat, after being transported by Electrodisplacement must be placed at least 1” away from enemy models and are no longer locked in combat.


and about librarius veil of time:

Modified Saves
For ITC format events, any saving throw of a 2+ that can be rerolled, if the first roll is failed, the reroll is failed on a roll of a 1,2 or 3.
Which i'm actually ok with tbh.

But banning shifting worldscape seems dumb, and they basically removed any reason to take fulmination lol.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/14 21:08:47


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Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine






Is Magnus allowed in ITC? I can't seem to find anything about it, but admittedly I'm not trying super hard to find it.
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin





East Bay, Ca, US

 Mulletdude wrote:
Is Magnus allowed in ITC? I can't seem to find anything about it, but admittedly I'm not trying super hard to find it.


Don't see anything to suggest otherwise.

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Made in us
Frightening Flamer of Tzeentch




Is there a point cap on LOW in ITC if so that may be how they ban him

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Made in us
Tunneling Trygon






No he is allowed
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






Magnus was on about half the tables at LVO. Those without had Riptide Wings instead.


 Marmatag wrote:


But banning shifting worldscape seems dumb, and they basically removed any reason to take fulmination lol.


As I remember back when they talked about this on the podcast. Their reasons had more to do with protecting the terrain and the table set up than game play. Resetting that many tables between rounds would be troublesome. Although the silliness of some of the things you can do with the power didn't help it's cause. Fulmination got hit because it helped make Deathstars better.




This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/15 05:55:20


“You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common, They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views.” -- The Doctor 
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin





East Bay, Ca, US

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Magnus was on about half the tables at LVO. Those without had Riptide Wings instead.


 Marmatag wrote:


But banning shifting worldscape seems dumb, and they basically removed any reason to take fulmination lol.


As I remember back when they talked about this on the podcast. Their reasons had more to do with protecting the terrain and the table set up than game play. Resetting that many tables between rounds would be troublesome. Although the silliness of some of the things you can do with the power didn't help it's cause. Fulmination got hit because it helped make Deathstars better.






Don't get me wrong, I understand Fulmination was strong.

But, so is invisibility. So are Wraithknights, Riptide Wings, etc. Why affect balance in one place, but not in another?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/15 15:27:14


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

Because one thing targets rules. Another targets models.

They try to in general stay away from targeting models, however it is kinda getting to the point where they can only go so far without targeting entire unit types.

People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Pasadena

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Magnus was on about half the tables at LVO. Those without had Riptide Wings instead.


 Marmatag wrote:


But banning shifting worldscape seems dumb, and they basically removed any reason to take fulmination lol.


As I remember back when they talked about this on the podcast. Their reasons had more to do with protecting the terrain and the table set up than game play. Resetting that many tables between rounds would be troublesome. Although the silliness of some of the things you can do with the power didn't help it's cause. Fulmination got hit because it helped make Deathstars better.





That's demonstrably false, there were no where near 200 lists with Magnus in it. Were you at the LVO, and walked around counting the Magnus models? Did you go through the BCP App and compile the data?

Why would Magnus be banned in the first place...

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Why can't GW just release a legitimate, well thought out, viable tournament format? It's not that hard and they could charge us $39.95 to buy it. Isn't that a win win? 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






 OverwatchCNC wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
Magnus was on about half the tables at LVO. Those without had Riptide Wings instead.


Spoiler:
 Marmatag wrote:


But banning shifting worldscape seems dumb, and they basically removed any reason to take fulmination lol.


As I remember back when they talked about this on the podcast. Their reasons had more to do with protecting the terrain and the table set up than game play. Resetting that many tables between rounds would be troublesome. Although the silliness of some of the things you can do with the power didn't help it's cause. Fulmination got hit because it helped make Deathstars better.





That's demonstrably false, there were no where near 200 lists with Magnus in it. Were you at the LVO, and walked around counting the Magnus models? Did you go through the BCP App and compile the data?

Why would Magnus be banned in the first place...



My comment was made in jest. Hence the little ork head at the end.

I was at LVO. I can supply evidence if you require. When I walked through the championship area looking at the tables I was struck with how many Magnus' and Riptide wings I saw. It seemed like they were everywhere. I apologize for not taking this subject as seriously as you do.

“You know, the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common, They don’t alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views.” -- The Doctor 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Pasadena

Apology accepted.

Overwatch.
Capture and Control

TFG Radio
I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings or pride, but your credentials matter. Even on the internet.
"If you do not have the knowledge, you do not have the right to the opinion." -Plato

Why can't GW just release a legitimate, well thought out, viable tournament format? It's not that hard and they could charge us $39.95 to buy it. Isn't that a win win? 
   
Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





Miami Beach, FL

I counted 16 Magnus' , Riptides were everywhere .
   
Made in us
[DCM]
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm




Yes, I took a Riptide Wing to LVO. Because Magnus.
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin





East Bay, Ca, US

 Leth wrote:
Because one thing targets rules. Another targets models.

They try to in general stay away from targeting models, however it is kinda getting to the point where they can only go so far without targeting entire unit types.


Still.

If the point is to create a balanced atmosphere, there are more imbalanced things out there.

"Riptide wing formation is not allowed."

Are we going to argue that Fulmination > Riptide wing?

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Made in de
A Crystal Tree in the Dome of the Seers






Hamburg

There is no straightforward way to balancing. We have tried similar things in our local tourneys. But if you restrict one unit another becomes more powerful. It's not going to work in general terms. I'd leave the rule set as it is without any additional restrictions.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




These were already voted on if you have issues. You should have voted. If you did and it didn't go your way that's life and how a lot of politocs go as well. Welcome to democracy. As always your local tourney can modify itc rules how they like. If they only have 3-4 tables and can reset them between rounds without a hassle feel free to use shifting worldscape. Don't like the 2+ reroll rule that's been a part of itc for over 6 years; don't use it. Want to setup first turn charge shenangins w robot guillman and a single infiltrator feel free to use fulmination.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/03/16 20:50:58


 
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin





East Bay, Ca, US

gungo wrote:
These were already voted on if you have issues. You should have voted. If you did and it didn't go your way that's life and how a lot of politocs go as well. Welcome to democracy. As always your local tourney can modify itc rules how they like. If they only have 3-4 tables and can reset them between rounds without a hassle feel free to use shifting worldscape. Don't like the 2+ reroll rule that's been a part of itc for over 6 years; don't use it. Want to setup first turn charge shenangins w robot guillman and a single infiltrator feel free to use fulmination.


Well, I didn't know they were voted on, and that's an opportunity missed.

I actually like the 2+ reroll rule. Still pretty hard to fail that save, so it's not like the power is useless.

It's good they didn't enact this balance crap in a vacuum, and the community got to vote to protect the standard cheese.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

I have never seen a formation up for voting nor any particular models so that statement is not accurate.

As to the arguement "well something always rises to the top" Yes that is true but the power gap between the top and middle is smaller.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/17 13:25:21


People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Leth wrote:
I have never seen a formation up for voting nor any particular models so that statement is not accurate.

As to the arguement "well something always rises to the top" Yes that is true but the power gap between the top and middle is smaller.
i never mentioned a formation just phase form, shifting worldscape and fulmination. Which are powers however saying no formations or models were ever up for a vote is wrong. We voted to allow the dual Stormsurge formation when originally the army building rules only allowed 1 LoW. We voted to restrict scatter lasers on eldar bikes that ultimately failed the vote.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/03/17 14:20:25


 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






San Diego, California

Hey guys, the Elysians omission was a mistake, we had some outside help come in to clean up the docs and that got goofed, we are fixing it now. Thanks for your patience and feedback.

   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin





East Bay, Ca, US

I hope they do a re-vote periodically. I would love to participate in that discussion.

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Made in us
Leader of the Sept






Why was armored company removed from playability?

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Indiana

gungo wrote:
 Leth wrote:
I have never seen a formation up for voting nor any particular models so that statement is not accurate.

As to the arguement "well something always rises to the top" Yes that is true but the power gap between the top and middle is smaller.
i never mentioned a formation just phase form, shifting worldscape and fulmination. Which are powers however saying no formations or models were ever up for a vote is wrong. We voted to allow the dual Stormsurge formation when originally the army building rules only allowed 1 LoW. We voted to restrict scatter lasers on eldar bikes that ultimately failed the vote.


The tournament rules limitation previously only allowed one lords of war. They amended it so that it was one UNIT since they could take multiple per unit(I believe) and still be under the points cap.

But either way my point is in general they do not rule to target specific units or models. Instead they target core rules which is all well and good and about the fairest to all parties way to do it I suppose. Problem is that it just curbs the excess rather than addressing a lot of the under lying problems.

For example the IC/Psyker rules needed a complete re-write to cover how they work across factions etc. Instead we had probably half of the document dealing with how specific IC interactions occurred. In some cases how the language and terminology were interpreted were inconsistant with each ruling.

This is not a complaint. Love what the ITC guys are doing and couldnt ask for them to do more than they already are. Just brain storming and talking about the ideal situation.

People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer

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Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin





East Bay, Ca, US

But back to the original point. If you're weakening or removing powers for the purposes of game balance, you're doing so to maintain the status quo of the current balance. That's all.

On the one hand you can't complain about balance, while simultaneously supporting actions that keep things the way they are.

Additionally, things like this prevent the meta from evolving. Maybe anti-psyker armies would get more play if this was allowed.

In the future i will try to vote or participate in the discussion. The meta needs to evolve, and the ITC shouldn't get in the way of that. Or, they should enact some changes to rebalance the game. Where are the ITC vehicle rules? Where are the limitations to "free stuff"? Where are the changes to D-weaponry? Where are the changes to MCs? To Grav?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/03/20 17:33:20


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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Does anyone know why the Dark Harvest list is banned. Wasn't planning on using it as it isn't anywhere near the Decurian on power level but just curious, like the Elysian list being a mistake is this one too?

And just an aside, it seems almost all tournaments now will have at least one Magnus player to deal with, suggestions on what to use to counter the git?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Marmatag wrote:
But back to the original point. If you're weakening or removing powers for the purposes of game balance, you're doing so to maintain the status quo of the current balance. That's all.

On the one hand you can't complain about balance, while simultaneously supporting actions that keep things the way they are.

Additionally, things like this prevent the meta from evolving. Maybe anti-psyker armies would get more play if this was allowed.

In the future i will try to vote or participate in the discussion. The meta needs to evolve, and the ITC shouldn't get in the way of that. Or, they should enact some changes to rebalance the game. Where are the ITC vehicle rules? Where are the limitations to "free stuff"? Where are the changes to D-weaponry? Where are the changes to MCs? To Grav?


It's a bit disengenuous to claim that doing nothing fixing the meta or the need to change everything in order to rebalance the game. The idea of the ITC is not about changing the entire game to rebalance it. There is no way to balance every army. That should be crystal clear by now to anyone playing this game. It's to make itc organized events fun. Shifting worldscape was just unusable in the current large organized events, the 2++ rerollable rule has been an itc staple to combat save stacking unkillable deathstar bs, and electro displacement being used to circumvent basic charge rules to create even more obtrusive deathstars is a clear example of this unfun annoyance and does nothing to change the meta. You literally just take a unit that's within charge range that usually and normally can't even charge and replace it with the most annoying unkillable unit that normally can't get within charge range and allow it to charge. I'm sure there will be plenty of events to allow electrodisplacement and we will see how that goes. Just like there was events that allowed people to use 5-6 wraithknight/warpspam armies that continue to completely overrun those events.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






San Diego, California

We will vote again, yes. We typically vote quarterly.

Dark Harvest Necrons are built out of the 5th ed book, they reference it over and over and a lot of the wargear and rules either no longer exist or have radically changed. We tried to make it work but just couldn't.

   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin





East Bay, Ca, US

gungo wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
But back to the original point. If you're weakening or removing powers for the purposes of game balance, you're doing so to maintain the status quo of the current balance. That's all.

On the one hand you can't complain about balance, while simultaneously supporting actions that keep things the way they are.

Additionally, things like this prevent the meta from evolving. Maybe anti-psyker armies would get more play if this was allowed.

In the future i will try to vote or participate in the discussion. The meta needs to evolve, and the ITC shouldn't get in the way of that. Or, they should enact some changes to rebalance the game. Where are the ITC vehicle rules? Where are the limitations to "free stuff"? Where are the changes to D-weaponry? Where are the changes to MCs? To Grav?


It's a bit disengenuous to claim that doing nothing fixing the meta or the need to change everything in order to rebalance the game. The idea of the ITC is not about changing the entire game to rebalance it. There is no way to balance every army. That should be crystal clear by now to anyone playing this game. It's to make itc organized events fun. Shifting worldscape was just unusable in the current large organized events, the 2++ rerollable rule has been an itc staple to combat save stacking unkillable deathstar bs, and electro displacement being used to circumvent basic charge rules to create even more obtrusive deathstars is a clear example of this unfun annoyance and does nothing to change the meta. You literally just take a unit that's within charge range that usually and normally can't even charge and replace it with the most annoying unkillable unit that normally can't get within charge range and allow it to charge. I'm sure there will be plenty of events to allow electrodisplacement and we will see how that goes. Just like there was events that allowed people to use 5-6 wraithknight/warpspam armies that continue to completely overrun those events.


If the idea of the ITC is not to rebalance the game they shouldn't be making decisions based on balance. They should make rulings based on clarity where appropriate.

Altering or negating powers is, in fact, rebalancing of the game.

If you're going to balance the game then do it. If you're not going to balance the game, leave well enough alone and let the meta sort itself out.

You seem to have it in your mind that i'm arguing in favor of death stars. I'm not.

To compute the probability of a specific outcome on N DK dice, use the generating function F= (x+ x^2 + x^3 + . . . + x^k-1 + x^k)^n
 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




 Reecius wrote:
We will vote again, yes. We typically vote quarterly.

Dark Harvest Necrons are built out of the 5th ed book, they reference it over and over and a lot of the wargear and rules either no longer exist or have radically changed. We tried to make it work but just couldn't.


I know what you mean. I've struggled to make use of it since the newest codex dropped but give it a go every now and then just for a change from Decurian etc. I wish Forgeworld would update it, it would be really nice to make some of those lovely models actually worth fielding!

Out of curiosity which bits couldn't you get to work? I know they still get Nightscythes at the old cost but pay more for Ghost Arks. The Lychguard are over costed but the Scarabs are pretty badass for 15 ppm. Also Flayed ones aren't as good by far.
   
 
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