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My Libby attempts to manifest Electrodisplacement. He succeeds but suffers a Perils, which removes his last wound. How do you resolve the power?

We played it that I just kept the Libby on the table to swap, and once the swapping was done, then removed him.

In fact, how do you resolve any witchfire if the psyker is killed by a Perils? You can't draw LoS from a dead model and therefore can't pick a target.

If the power successfully manifests with the Perils, the rules say the power goes off, so you'd resolve that. At worse, it would be simulatneous - since it's your turn you'd get to choose which one to resolve first, and you'd always want to choose resolving the power on the other unit before removing your model.

It's not simultaneous, though. The "Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence" has 5 steps, done in order (not simultaneously). Step 3 includes "resolve Perils" which would remove the model as a casualty. Step 4 is DtW, and THEN Step 5 is resolve power. That's definitely not simultaneous, because the enemy player performs an action between those two steps.

I would say that there's no model to be swapped by the time the power resolves. So the power does go off, but doesn't do anything useful. For example, if a Librarian on his lonesome cast Force, but then died from Perils, no weapon would gain the Force power because it's gone, even if the power was successful.

So that also means that if I cast a nova, but die from Perils, then no enemies are hit/wounded.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
So that also means that if I cast a nova, but die from Perils, then no enemies are hit/wounded.

I didn't think of that, but it must be true, as there'd be no point to actually measure from. Not sure if that's the RAI on it, but yeah, guess so.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
It's not simultaneous, though. The "Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence" has 5 steps, done in order (not simultaneously). Step 3 includes "resolve Perils" which would remove the model as a casualty. Step 4 is DtW, and THEN Step 5 is resolve power. That's definitely not simultaneous, because the enemy player performs an action between those two steps.

Fair point, my mistake.

The power wouldn't get to be resolved with the psyker gone.

It seems that, in fact, if the psyker dies to Perils, ONLY maledictions and blessings would go into effect. Conjurations and witchfires wouldn't, because with those you check range at Step 5 of the process, long after the psyker is removed.
And even then some blessings and maledictions might not work, as evidenced by the OP of this thread.

Edit: I've never seen it played this way, and so this, at least for me, is a pretty big step in a direction that I don't like, aka powering down the psychic phase.
It would also seem that this means that when the rulebook says the power is still resolved, even if the psyker dies, it doesn't count for much.

Given that the Perils chart explicitly says you resolve the power as normal, I think that if the psyker dies from Perils its intended to basically act as if its still around till the power is resolved.

Everybody I know just resolves Perils after resolving the power.

The power would go off but there is no librarian to swap, so nothing would happen. Electrodisplacement requires a librarian to determine positioning. Since there is no librarian the power can't proceed.

The problem I see is that resolving Elecrodisplacement as normal does not offer a scenario in which that can be done if the Psyker has been removed. You are required to resolve the power as normal, which involves mandatory actions described in the Electrodisplacement power.

That being the case I don't think there is a RAW answer, and you would have to come to some agreement with your opponent.

 Marmatag wrote:
The power would go off but there is no librarian to swap, so nothing would happen. Electrodisplacement requires a librarian to determine positioning. Since there is no librarian the power can't proceed.

By that logic, no power can successfully be resolved. All of them have a requirement to measure range or check LoS (such as to allocate wounds) which you can't do if you treat it as there no longer be a psyker on the table. There renders the line about resolving the power in spite of perils completely moot.

Perils does specifically mention that the power is resolved even if the psyker is slain. CrownAxe has a good point about not being able to resolve any powers since you can't resolve distances from something that's not there. But, we're still told that the power resolves, so it looks like you would resolve the power as if the psyker was there, then remove the psyker after the power's resolved even though technically he'd normally be removed at a step before resolving the power.

I totally understand your point.

Here's another scenario on the same vein.

Let's say you manifest Earth Blood on your Psyker. He suffers perils and receives a wound, reducing his wound count to 0.

Is he then healed d3 wounds, up from 0? Or, does he stop being a legal target the moment he reaches 0?

I suppose one way to think about it would be in terms of initiative.

The perils and manifestation both happen at initiative 1. I can accept that interpretation.

"Assuming that the Psychic test was successful and any Deny the Witch test was failed, the psychic power still manifests, regardless of whether or not the Psyker in question suffers a wound or is slain by Perils of the Warp."

If they had said "suffered a wound or was slain by Perils" I would have said that he would have stopped being a legal target by being slain, but that's not what they have. They have "is slain" in present tense, so it's not indicating that he was already slain when the power manifests. It does look like an "initiative 1" type thing in regards to them being simultaneous .

The problem with simultaneous is that you have a DTW step in between that and resolution. Rolls a 3 on the perils even affects that ability by reducing Warp Charges.

Fragile wrote:
The problem with simultaneous is that you have a DTW step in between that and resolution. Rolls a 3 on the perils even affects that ability by reducing Warp Charges.

Wait, it does? I was pretty sure a successful DtW negated perils since it happened first.

Audustum wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The problem with simultaneous is that you have a DTW step in between that and resolution. Rolls a 3 on the perils even affects that ability by reducing Warp Charges.

Wait, it does? I was pretty sure a successful DtW negated perils since it happened first.

A DtW does not negate a perils.

Fragile wrote:
The problem with simultaneous is that you have a DTW step in between that and resolution. Rolls a 3 on the perils even affects that ability by reducing Warp Charges.

"Assuming that the Psychic test was successful and any Deny the Witch roll failed, the psychic power still manifests, regardless of whether the Psyker in question suffers a wound [b]or is slain by the Perils of the Warp." (page 25)

You still need to satisfy this. If you take the psyker off first, you still have to act as if he was where he was for successfully manifesting the power, or you're not going by what it says in the Perils of the Warp sidebar.

If at any point, a model’s Strength, Toughness or Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty.

And you have to satisfy this. So you are removed in Step 3 when your Perils goes off. The opponent can then DtW in Step 4. When the resolution occurs in Step 5, the Psyker is dead and cannot swap places so that power will resolve and do nothing.

Things like Maledictions and Blessings will resolve normally because those you check for Range in Step 2.

 doctortom wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The problem with simultaneous is that you have a DTW step in between that and resolution. Rolls a 3 on the perils even affects that ability by reducing Warp Charges.

"Assuming that the Psychic test was successful and any Deny the Witch roll failed, the psychic power still manifests, regardless of whether the Psyker in question suffers a wound [b]or is slain by the Perils of the Warp." (page 25)

You still need to satisfy this. If you take the psyker off first, you still have to act as if he was where he was for successfully manifesting the power, or you're not going by what it says in the Perils of the Warp sidebar.

I'm on this side of the aisle. Even if the Psyker is killed, the power manifests. It's not cancelled. Whether you use the Psyker as a marker and remove him after resolving the power or otherwise, the targeted unit is still going to end up where the Psyker once was. Just that the Psyker doesn't show up where the targeted unit once was, because he's dead. There's no reason for the targeted unit not to be moved if the power is manifested successfully.

Yes but the psyker is moved first and then units are placed subject to coherency. How can you do that step if the psyker isn't on the table? That's the question.

Electrodisplacement requires you do multiple things, it's not "pick up the squad and move it," it's a very specific set of instructions built around positioning your psyker on the board and then positioning units around him.

If the psyker dies from perils and is not immediately removed, you have no issue. He and his unit are moved and then he is removed as a casualty.

If the psyker dies from perils and is immediately removed, it isn't possible to complete the electrodisplacement spell. So while it would resolve in that you'd get a victory point for manifesting a spell, you can't physically execute the steps required to complete the move.

Fragile wrote:

If at any point, a model’s Strength, Toughness or Wounds are reduced to 0, it is removed from play as a casualty.

And you have to satisfy this. So you are removed in Step 3 when your Perils goes off. The opponent can then DtW in Step 4. When the resolution occurs in Step 5, the Psyker is dead and cannot swap places so that power will resolve and do nothing.

Things like Maledictions and Blessings will resolve normally because those you check for Range in Step 2.

Advanced vs. basic - the advanced rule for Perils of the Warp is an advanced rule compared to the basic rule you quoted. Perils specifically tells you to resolve the power even if the psyker is slain. They didn't put any qualifier on that statement. If you are not resolving the power, you are not following what Perils of the Warp tells you to do. If they didn't specify that the power manifests even if the psyker IS slain (present tense, not past, suggesting that they treat it as simultaneous), then it would be different, but they do specify it. Therefore, the power must be resolved.

That's what he's saying - it will resolve but have no effect. It would be like casting Iron Arm and dying to perils. Yes it resolves, but to what effect?

You cannot resolve the power though. You cannot complete the instruction to pick the psyker up.

Electrodisplacement moves someone else as well as the psyker. That guy just swaps places with the psyker's corpse.

Removing as a causally requires removing the model
I'm in the you MUST resolve, and must therefore only refer be as a casualty after the power is resolved.

It's another part of the poorly thought out psyker rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Removing as a causally requires removing the model
I'm in the you MUST resolve, and must therefore only refer be as a casualty after the power is resolved.

It's another part of the poorly thought out psyker rules.

It's not poorly thought out. A power can resolve, if there's no legal target, it still earns you the credit for manifesting a power, but it doesn't do anything.

Like a chain of fast effects in Magic. If you cast Giant Growth on your Mons Goblin Raiders, and in response, I cast Lightning Bolt on them, they are removed, Giant Growth has no effect because the Mons Goblin Raiders are no longer a legal target, as casualties are removed immediately.

You still spent the mana, you still cast Giant Growth, but it doesn't do anything. You can't give +3/+3 to a dead creature. It's just not possible.

You would need to argue that there is simultaneous resolution of the power and the perils, and therefore the order would be up to the caster of the spell. While that is certainly a possible outcome, I haven't found anything to support it in the rules.

I believe the RAW is it does nothing, but the intent is that you resolve the psychic test, trading places with a corpse effectively, and refrain from removing the model until the spell is completely resolved.

 Marmatag wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Removing as a causally requires removing the model
I'm in the you MUST resolve, and must therefore only refer be as a casualty after the power is resolved.

It's another part of the poorly thought out psyker rules.

It's not poorly thought out. A power can resolve, if there's no legal target, it still earns you the credit for manifesting a power, but it doesn't do anything.

Like a chain of fast effects in Magic. If you cast Giant Growth on your Mons Goblin Raiders, and in response, I cast Lightning Bolt on them, they are removed, Giant Growth has no effect because the Mons Goblin Raiders are no longer a legal target, as casualties are removed immediately.

You still spent the mana, you still cast Giant Growth, but it doesn't do anything. You can't give +3/+3 to a dead creature. It's just not possible.

You would need to argue that there is simultaneous resolution of the power and the perils, and therefore the order would be up to the caster of the spell. While that is certainly a possible outcome, I haven't found anything to support it in the rules.

If it was simultaneous, wouldn't the rules for sequencing take over? In that case, whoever's turn it is should decide the order of events.