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Something that has recently occured to me, is the fact that in the next codex you can expect to see the current Dakka heavy godzilla list get toned down majorly.  My money is on a "fix" that you cannot have 2 TL Devourers on an MC or maybe just a heavy points increase.

GW has this idea that the Nids are supposed to be a close combat army, with lots of little guys, some medium guys and some big guys, and that is clearly not the case now.
In fact, in the most competative lists, the close combat is almost an afterthought.

So, does anyone else see the same thing as likely to happen?  GW horribly nerfing the shooting that they never intended for?

I'd like to see the "make your own species" mutations come back in one form or another, that was the coolest part about 3rd edition. But don't count on any changes for a long time, the next nid codex is two or three years down the road.

Although, when it does come around, I would not be suprised to see a major emphasis on the CC aspect of the nids instead of the shooty side.

My first thought is that the next Tyranid codex is probably 5 years and another edition away. Most armies don't even have a 4th ed. update yet, and they're only releasing 2-3 a year. So I dunno that it's really important.

While I've warmed up to Godzilla lists at 1500 pts and below, I think Ed's classic shooty UMs (and a lot of other competitive SM configs) would own them at 1850+. It's Theoryhammer on my part, but I'm pretty confident that Godzilla lists would get taken down a couple pegs once armies can really kit out with asst. cannons, LCs, MLs, PFs, etc.

Godzilla lists ARE easier to play than a horde now, and that's why I think people gravitate toward them. But I think a true horde (100 models isn't really a horde IMO) is still more than viable. People act as if synapse is SO HARD to deal with now that hive nodes are gone, but I think it just takes careful play and practice. Any complaints I have about the Tyranid codex have nothing to do with synapse or how MCs operate now.

And more directly to the point, the Godzilla list option was put in to sell Carnifex kits. As long as that keeps up, it'll remain an attractive choice.

In all fairness, the 'fex is a uber cool model, I don't play or even LIKE nids and I think I will eventually give a go at modelling one.

Subject: How long will Shooty Zilla Nids last?

Luv you long time......

Not too worried about what happens in 3-4 years atm.

That said nids in 3rd ed where all about CC, orks could make shooty armies but tyranids needn't bother, they changed things this time round, infact I was very surprised that CC abilities where actually nerfed alot (no implants on warriors wtf) along with the mutations going which where almost exclusively used to pump CC abilities, instead they wanted to give tyranids some real shooting power.

Well assuming this was really their objective they have succeeded, perhaps too well considering the armies fluff. I don't really see tyranids as a get close and.....stop to fire guns army but atm the weapons are so very strong that this is exactly what alot of people like to do.

While I've warmed up to Godzilla lists at 1500 pts and below, I think Ed's classic shooty UMs (and a lot of other competitive SM configs) would own them at 1850+. It's Theoryhammer on my part, but I'm pretty confident that Godzilla lists would get taken down a couple pegs once armies can really kit out with asst. cannons, LCs, MLs, PFs, etc.

Might be true but most games are played at the 1500pts level, I think.... well atleast where I live, we have 1-2 1750pts tournies a year and 12-15 1500pts tournies.

And more directly to the point, the Godzilla list option was put in to sell Carnifex kits. As long as that keeps up, it'll remain an attractive choice.

Probably true but alot of people are converting, I made my elite fexs out of tyrant guard and bought a cheap 2nd hand 3rd ed fex for a HS version, they managed to sell exactly 1 fex kit to me and my army has 5 fexs

Personally I won't even be sad if the tl dev fexs go FAAAR down the line, I will just turn nids back into a true CC army like they where in 3rd....time will tell.

I'd like to see the "make your own species" mutations come back in one form or another, that was the coolest part about 3rd edition.

That's why GW had to destroy it. It was too confusing for the 12 year old boys, err, average gamers.

I would like Tyranids (you know the fastest evolving race in the galaxy) to have the options SMs have with their traits, IG have with their doctirnes, eldar have with their craftworlds, ORKS have with their clans!

Why is it tyranids belong to the MINORITY for changing their army around!
Chaos has the most varied dex around, basically nids are left with tau and necrons with not so many choices! crazy.

In the Chicagoland area, and everything within 150 miles, 1850pt tourneys are pretty much the norm.  We might have 1 tourney at 1500 per year and the other 18-24 are at 1850.  That being said the shooty Godzilla list is still the master of the tourney scene right now.  I was taken down last Monday with my Oblit heavy, uber shooty Iron Warriors and that might have been my first lose with that list in over 2 years!

The next Nids codex is in the far, far future and the shooty big bug list will be around for a very long time. 

Let me clarify that not just anybody can throw 8 TMC's into a list and expect to win.  A slick list in the hands of a good player makes the Godzilla lists the class of the tourney scene right now.

Godzilla lists ARE easier to play than a horde now, and that's why I think people gravitate toward them. But I think a true horde (100 models isn't really a horde IMO) is still more than viable. People act as if synapse is SO HARD to deal with now that hive nodes are gone, but I think it just takes careful play and practice. Any complaints I have about the Tyranid codex have nothing to do with synapse or how MCs operate now.

The problem is, you really CANT make a horde nid army, given the bump in points for most stuff. Its virtually impossible.

I can make a sisters or IG "horde" bigger than a tyranid one, its sad....

The points bumps don't cost me as much as the fact that I need more synapse on the table now without hive mode mutations.  So I end up spending some points on Zoanthropes and not more Gaunts.  The points spent on Zoanthropes aren't "dead" points, but they're not the best use of points, either.

All that being said, I don't have a big problem with it because the ability to cheaply pass out Ld 10 to everything on top of synapse was kinda obnoxious, really.  I agree that some of the points bumps were a little heavy-handed, though.  And while I understand why they don't want fleet Warriors, I don't think the ability to fire 2 VCs was imbalancing given the points you pay for the weapons. 

Zilla nids are good, but are not a Take All Comers list imho. Once people get the hang of them, they'll have too many spoiler opponents to win tourneys reliably.

I see it a lot down here, and at 2000/1850 it just cannot hang. I've never even faced one because they never make it to the top tier - I'm always playing Tau, Necrons, and power armor variants (Tau just because they are the 'in thing' these days, not because they're really any good).

Personally I think Zilla nids are a take on all comers army.

More so than any other tyranid varian atleast.
Most tyranid armies suffer from a lack of antiskimmer power, Zilla does not.

Definitely better than any other nid list. But still too vulnerable to good solid shootie marines and drop pods, as well as Necrons (only super necrons will really put up a fight, crappy list will get owned).

Too many necrons and drop troop type armies around here - lots of drop IG with demo charges and such, my drop pods, Lysander-wing, Deathwing and so on.

I'll also say that at 1500, they are utterly unspeakably good. Very few armies can hang. But move it up a few notches and Zilla gains a few more genestealers and not really much else.

Yea we can't really add any more MCs, we already take as many as possible at 1500pts, but a few more ravaners and defensive upgrades on the HS fexs sure do help.

Never seen a necron win against zilla nids though, they don't pack ap3 weapons so you always get a save, you don't even need cover against them.

Never faced a good podding army so hard to say but I don't really see how dropping so close to the tyranids will be good for you, you will be assualted the turn you drop in most cases.

Posted By DarthDiggler on 06/04/2006 3:33 PM

I was taken down last Monday with my Oblit heavy, uber shooty Iron Warriors and that might have been my first lose with that list in over 2 years!

The irony is that your army doesn't match up that well with Godzilla lists...they like to trade shots.  Proper use of assault is key to beating Godzilla lists. 

 

Are you telling me that a shooty IW list is not the antithesis of the Godzilla list?  I'll have anywhere from 6-9 Obliterators that get a 2+ save against all bug shooting and can dish out 9 lascannons at range and 9-18 twin-linked plasmaguns when the bugs get withint devourer range.  There are 3 lascannon squads, 2 missile/powerfist squads, 2 predator destructors and a basilisk.  A cheap terminator lord with lightning claws and daemonic strength to clean off the units who get into HtH.

I thought there was no way the Godzilla's would get through all that shooting, but all it takes is one level 3 area terrain piece in the center of the board and they have cover to walk up behind and either a 4+ or 5+ cover save to sit in and exchange fire.  He played it smart.  He shook the tanks and covered the Genestealers and Raveners with TMC's, then shot from 4+ save terrain and jumped the fast movers out when they were all ready to present innumerable targets even for me.  They hit the line in some spots to stop shooting and the same turn the big bugs move out of cover and into my half of the board.

I have seen lots of Godzilla lists played in tourneys around here and about half are not made right so they don't do well, however the best made ones are rampaging right now and I see no end in site.  This isn't a tourney scene that is to restrictive.  We run Adepticon every year and we have lots of players playing lots of armies.  To be honest the Drop Pod army is one of the easiest wins for a Godzilla list.  There is no way to not have 3-4 TMC's pounce on the pod squad when they drop in.  The Adepticon Gladiator champs pod army has been taken down fairly quickly by the Godzilla lists around here.

However I know that different regions of the country play different armies and there is no use arguing about it here.  If there are 2 bad Godzilla lists in Phoenix, then Longshot will say the Godzilla list is one dimensional and beatable because he hasn't seen them do well.  How can someone from Chicago argue with that. 

My point is that using an IW army vs. a Godzilla army is a strength on strength battle. The quickest way of taking down the MCs is to assault them, not wear them down with shooting. Shooty Carnifexes tend to die in a couple assault rounds to a SM unit with a PF and only dish out a casualty or two in return. I'd rather face them with mobile dakka to try to clean up the assaulty stuff, plus some assault units of my own with PFs to jump out and beat down the Carnifexes. Again, I fully admit it's Theoryhammer on my part, but then I'm a Tyranid player and know how Carnifexes perform in h2h when not kitted for it.

I still think we need to give the Godzilla list some time before crowning it anything. But hey, if Godzilla lists keep winning, great! I'm a Tyranid player myself and enjoy seeing power armored armies lose...

Hmm. As to Zillas weakness at 1850, I would say that they are actually covering for their weakness.

The fact of the matter is, 1500 they are just gathering up their strength. And if they can get the big bugs in cover and in range, as well as covering for other wounded MCs, they can be the most survivable units in the game and put out a ridiculous amount of firepower.

Their weakness is assault. As they get up to 1850, they lose the advantage of having just too many MCs, but they gain the advantage that assaulting them is dangerous, due to the extra stealers. Plus the quick assaulting/objective grabbing raveners.

Really, I think they are quite alot more well rounded at 1850, that would be my preferred point level.

Well, we might not wear power armour per say but it is 3+ save that the MCs are running around with, granted its the T6 kind.

There here to stay. The shootiness is a direct result of fourth edition rules adaptation. Bug players need to shoot down all those skimmers flying around because catching them and assaulting them is very hard to use effectively. The shootiness of fourth also makes it extremely difficult to build a straight assault list especially with the prevalence of assault cannons and the rapid fire rules change. As for the few horde lists I have seen they are being shot down to the point were those that do survive are not a signifigant threat.(kill the synapse) IMO Orks can build better assault armies and that is only because they are BS2 and have to. I think MC is the new build that plays to the strength of 4th ed. and why not when is the last time you played a marine list with less than 4-5 assault cannons. 3-5 Dakkafexs has become the new norm.

 

The godzilla nids is a very strong list. There are a few lists that are bad matchups for them, but nothing like what most armies have. In the batreps section you can see my batreps for 5 games. I fought White Scars, Blood Angels, Tyranids, Tau and Ulthwe and I won all my games. If those are not well rounded match ups, nothing is.

I started out using my Godzilla nids with a little bug swarm, but that was a huge mistake and I was being beaten a lot. Then I added genestealers, and never looked back. With genestealers you do not have to worry about syanpse, and very few things can out-assault them. I hide them behind a wall of spine gaunts for target priority checks, and also if anything wants to assault them they have to assault the spinegaunts first. Then the WS6 I6 genestealers assault and that is it.

But godzilla nids are going to be around for a while. If you shoot the big bugs, the genestealers will assault you, if you shoot the genestealers, the TMC will out shoot you. It is very hard to beat that combo.  

People need to learn to sit in cover and let their bolter marines and necrons kill your genestealers. Once they learn that, the jig is up for the zilla nids with stealers.

Yea it really is CRAZY how 8 marines in cover can kill 1 ENTIRE genestealer before it strikes!
Not 1 half....
Not 1 three quarters but 1 ENTIRE stealer will on average die!

Almost impossible to counter this.............. um ok I got bored with the sarcasm...you get the idea

The beautiful thing is that the fexs LOVE the enemy going into cover if there is anything that scares them like a Pfist or higher than init 2 attacks that can actually hurt them.

Since all the MCs always take the 1pts fleshhooks (same price as on a gaunt lol) this allows 2-3 fexs to assault a squad and attack at init 4, possibly killing Pfist model or those in btb before it can strike.

Won't always help but it does let us use cover to our advantage which is nice.

Killing 1 stealer is better than nothing....but it aint all that.

Models with 1 attack, hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's, and not ignoring the 4+ save have little chance against genestealers in closecombat, regardless of initiative. An average 8 marines per genestealer killed if they get to swing first in cover, this is not the formula for an easy win against tyranids!

Bad advice, all around generally.

It's more of a mitigating losses scenario. When you make 'stealers attack you in cover, you make it cost them a lot more to fight. They kill less and they die sooner. And it makes it much more likely for the stealers to be held up another turn in combat - whereas their optimal kill time is in the opponent's turn, if you take a stealer away from them by making them strike last, you make that less likely.

If you're fighting bp/ccw marines, the day gets even worse.

It's kind of slowed to claim that 'forcing stealers to attack you in cover if at all' is bad advice, since it's clearly superior to any other options you have. Most games you won't have a choice of not fighting them at all due to speed and target priority, so it's better to do it where the odds are better.

And that makes a lot more sense than:

People need to learn to sit in cover and let their bolter marines and necrons kill your genestealers. Once they learn that, the jig is up for the zilla nids with stealers.

And I stand by my statement that simply saying: 'If stealers assault you in cover, zilla bugs are doomed!' is bad advice. You should be saying:

Stealers are primarily evil because of their rending, high initiative, numbers, and the charge +1 attack modifier. When faced with the option of rapid-firing into a squad of stealers, or assaulting them: you should always assault unless you are positive the rapidfire will reduce the squad to 2 models or less. Rending is unreliable and you will often win these combats by multiplying your attacks vs. their base. Make sure on the charge that you try to involve 4 marines (8 attacks) per stealer in the combat. If you have 16 attacks on the charge, only assault the corner of their formation, if you have more attacks you can aim for the center. The idea is to win the combat
If you eyeball the distance and believe you cannot make the charge, but stand and fire will get you charged next turn by their move+fleet+charge distance, then back up instead. The fight is inevitable, make it happen on your terms.
If all else fails, your best bet is to clump together as tightly as possible in difficult terrain. The smart tyranid player will try to get only as many models involved in the combat as he believes he can kill in a round of combat, by clumping together you will deter this. (Keep warp blast in mind though!)

Oh and hang onto your seat, it's going to be a bumpy ride! There are still the MC's, Psychic screams, devourer swarms, and CC tyrants to worry about.

It's kind of slowed to claim that 'forcing stealers to attack you in cover if at all' is bad advice, since it's clearly superior to any other options you have. Most games you won't have a choice of not fighting them at all due to speed and target priority, so it's better to do it where the odds are better

Almost as slowed as arguing about something you have admitted to not even playing yet?

Moz nailed it. Yeah "maybe" you will deal with the genestealers, if you get a shot at them, but what about everything else?

I know the static Marine lists can be tough... but Pods and Necrons? Erm... doubt it.

Umm. Tell me why the stealers would assault into the cover again?

Last I checked, Line squads vs Dakkafex, the Dakkafex wins. By a greater margin if it can be in cover too.

The cover isn't going to help at all against the shooting, and after the shooting widdles you down some, the stealers can close the distance and charge what is left. Of course they may not even have to, depending on the army you are playing.

Posted By Longshot on 06/06/2006 8:01 AM
People need to learn to sit in cover and let their bolter marines and necrons kill your genestealers. Once they learn that, the jig is up for the zilla nids with stealers.

It's kind of slowed to claim that 'forcing stealers to attack you in cover if at all' is bad advice, since it's clearly superior to any other options you have. Most games you won't have a choice of not fighting them at all due to speed and target priority, so it's better to do it where the odds are better.

 

You started by saying that hiding in cover is a game winner, but then you backed off of it when the numbers are ran. But the point is that hiding in cover will not help you. Remember that the godzilla nids is mostly a shooting army and cover will not help you from either shooting or assault.

 

One problem with marines is that like most armies marines have their heavy weapons in their tac squads. That means that they are forced into choices. They can either hurt the big bugs, or shoot the genestealers. So what ever they choose, they are going to be in trouble.

 

And rapid firing is not going to solve any of your problems but it might midigate some. A good goxzilla list should have ahead of the genestealers a few spine gaunts in there to lead off for target priority checks and also for combat resolution. 32 cheap spinegaunts is very hard to overlook.It is surprizing how few times genestealers get rapid fired. No one wants to move closer to the bugs, and if you want to stay in that cover, all you have to do is stay 13-14" aways from it to get the charge (assuming you roll ok on the difficult terrain roll on 3 dice).

 

You can theoryhammer all you like, but the combination of TMCs and genestealers is a very good synergistic army. There are only a handfull of armies that stack up well against it (SoB and Mech Guard come to mind).. But otherwise it is a hard list to beat.