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Hello there,

I have recently picked up Warhammer 40K, about three months ago. I have long been wanting to play Imperial Guard. Pure, Imperial Guard. No allies.


However, after playing quite a few games (about 30, combined games of real tabletop and Tabletop Simulator) and my first tournament today, I have won maybe one game. And even that was a close one. :(

I... I just don't know if it is even possible to win with Imperial Guard. I really try to do everything correctly: Focus on objectives, give the right order to the right units, try and prioritise the right target etc.


I'd like to have a serious talk on what I can do as a Guard player and at least give my opponent a run for their money, and not have my enemy just snicker at it like it's the laughing stock of the tournament.





For anyone interested, here was my army list from the latest tournament. Though I'd rather just talk on how I can do better as a Guard commander in general.

Combined Arms Detachment, 1850 points

HQ
Tank commander, Leman Russ Punisher, Hull-mounted Lascannon, Knight Commander Pask (Warlord),

Leman Russ Exterminator

Regimental Specialists
1 Primaris Psyker, Master lvl 2, Force Axe,
1 Primaris Pskyer, Mastery lvl 1, Force Axe
1 Ministorum Priest, Autogun,

Troops,
Infantry platoon #1
Infantry squad, vox-caster, 1 grenade launcher 1 autcannon,
Infantry squad, 1 grenade launcher 1 autcannon,
Infantry squad, 1 grenade launcher 1 autcannon,

Conscripts, 20x conscripts,
Commissar /w Boltgun,

Infantry platoon #2 323 P
Infantry squad, vox-caster, 1 sniper rifle, 1 lascannon,
Infantry squad, 1 sniper rifle 1 lascannon,
Infantry squad, 1 sniper rifle 1 lascannon,
Infantry squad, 1 sniper rifle 1 lascannon,

Emperor’s Wrath Artillery Company
Company Command Squad,
Dedicated transport: Taurox,
1 Veteran /W Sniper Rifle,
1 Veteran /W Regimental Standard,
1 Veteran /W Vox-caster,

1 Enginseer,

1 Basilisk battery;
2 basilisks,

1 Wyvern battery;
2 Wyverns,

1 Deathstrike Missile Launcher,

Not sure why no one has replied but do you have any normal opponents? As in is there any kind of army you face more often in particular?

Unfortunately you picked a pretty weak army but it can still win some games. Other games it will just have no real way of winning like against most Eldar lists or and a lot of good Tau ones.

There are some ways to trim some of the fat off your list like taking the force weapons off the psykers if not axe them altogether. You also don't need sniper rifles as they are almost never worth it. Lascannons in infantry squads usually means that you're paying seventy points per lasconnon which just isn't cost effective. Are these all the models you have? And what play style do you like to do with this army? I can imagine what it is more information you can give the better

I know this is dependent on having the models, but having two squads of 40-50 conscripts in those platoons (with priest backup of course) will make your list flat out more competitive.

I also don't think the emperor's wrath formation is really worth it most of the time if you already have the heavy slots free. The benefits are nice, but it forces you into taking a transport-mounted CCS, a borderline-pointless engineseer and a manticore/deathstrike which are crazy expensive for an AV12 vehicle. I'd rather just have more guns (even if they don't shoot quite as effectively)

Here are a few ideas for possible improvements. All this based on what you have available of course!

Deathstrike is a weaker unit - (too random, not enough devastation IF it doesn't get killed before firing) Manticore is better if you want to keep the emperor's wrath. Do you have bits to swap it out?

I'd drop the second psyker - just run one with ML2 and no force axe. You gain almost no utility from a second - one warp charge is NOT worth 50pts. What is he rolling on? Divination or malefic daemonology (if you're feeling heretical) are probably the best options.

Taurox - these things are just too fragile. I'd go chimera if you have to for the formation.

Are the platoons blobbed or in individual squads? Typically I believe blobbed platoons are usually better - with 20-30 men, including 2-3 HWTs and a commissar or priest. I'd disagree with the guy above regarding lascannons. Combined with CCS orders they are worth it to give the squad an option to contribute some firepower when you're fighting mech lists.

Get master of ordnance for the CCS - this is a random one, but totally worth the measly 20pts investment.

Get bolters on every single sergeant. They're good value for 1pt a piece and let the sarges contribute to the units firepower.

I can't see any platoon command squads here, but they're a good place for autocannons.

Still my biggest advice is to get as many priest-led conscripts in the list as you can. Them, wyverns and maybe Pask-punishers are the three strongest units in the codex right now.

The best bit about my infantry platoons is HW, and the orders to let them do nice things. Being able to ignore cover, or pin, is handy.
Having a PCS, or even better, a CCS, able to dish out orders can make a squad a lot better.
IIRC, a Chimera has the Command Vehicle rule, which the Taurox does not. It lets you give orders from inside, and effectively extends the range by a few inches.

Avoid GLs. I find Flamers to be better, but the are others to choose from. Flamers don't depend on BS, and BS affects the scatter range of GLs, too.

I have tried psykers in IG, but they've not been worth the effort.

I spend the single point per model to give bolt pistols to everyone I can. Every sergeant gets one, and any commander.

Why bolt pistols when you can get bolters for the same price? Is it just aesthetics?

Getting to shoot at 24 inches and twice at 12 inches is so much better than preserving one measly S3 attack in CC.

Doctoralex wrote:
Hello there,

I have recently picked up Warhammer 40K, about three months ago. I have long been wanting to play Imperial Guard. Pure, Imperial Guard. No allies.


However, after playing quite a few games (about 30, combined games of real tabletop and Tabletop Simulator) and my first tournament today, I have won maybe one game. And even that was a close one. :(

I... I just don't know if it is even possible to win with Imperial Guard. I really try to do everything correctly: Focus on objectives, give the right order to the right units, try and prioritise the right target etc.


I'd like to have a serious talk on what I can do as a Guard player and at least give my opponent a run for their money, and not have my enemy just snicker at it like it's the laughing stock of the tournament.





For anyone interested, here was my army list from the latest tournament. Though I'd rather just talk on how I can do better as a Guard commander in general.

Combined Arms Detachment, 1850 points

HQ
Tank commander, Leman Russ Punisher, Hull-mounted Lascannon, Knight Commander Pask (Warlord),

Leman Russ Exterminator

Regimental Specialists
1 Primaris Psyker, Master lvl 2, Force Axe,
1 Primaris Pskyer, Mastery lvl 1, Force Axe
1 Ministorum Priest, Autogun,

Troops,
Infantry platoon #1
Infantry squad, vox-caster, 1 grenade launcher 1 autcannon,
Infantry squad, 1 grenade launcher 1 autcannon,
Infantry squad, 1 grenade launcher 1 autcannon,

Conscripts, 20x conscripts,
Commissar /w Boltgun,

Infantry platoon #2 323 P
Infantry squad, vox-caster, 1 sniper rifle, 1 lascannon,
Infantry squad, 1 sniper rifle 1 lascannon,
Infantry squad, 1 sniper rifle 1 lascannon,
Infantry squad, 1 sniper rifle 1 lascannon,

Emperor’s Wrath Artillery Company
Company Command Squad,
Dedicated transport: Taurox,
1 Veteran /W Sniper Rifle,
1 Veteran /W Regimental Standard,
1 Veteran /W Vox-caster,

1 Enginseer,

1 Basilisk battery;
2 basilisks,

1 Wyvern battery;
2 Wyverns,

1 Deathstrike Missile Launcher,

OK, let's talk about the low-hanging fruit: What you can change in your list.

Deathstrikes vs Manticores: Always, always, always manticore. The Deathstrike is a frequent contender for single worst model in the entire game (sadly, because it looks awesome). The Manticore in the Emperor's Wrath is pretty solid.

Second model in the basilisk squad: I would either ditch it, or run it as a second solo basilisk. You have 3 Heavy Support slots in your CAD you're not using: put the wyverns in there as solos. Wyverns gain basically nothing from Emp Wrath as 99% of the time you want to give Ignore Cover or Tank Hunter, usually Ignore Cover to a basilisk or manticore.

Also, give the CCS from the emperors wrath the Vulkov's Cane relic for 10pts. It's what makes this formation good: Guaranteed orders (or almost) on your artillery. Ditch the standard, ditch the vox, and run a HWT and Master of Ordnance to shoot out the hatch of the Taurox because that's all the CCS is going to be doing, sitting way in your backline and issuing orders to the manticore/basilisk(s).

Your platoon setup: Infantry Platoons generally want to be one of two things. One: A melee deterrent/threat, with Priest backup, melee gear on sarges, and often some allies to give them a bit of extra teeth. Two: a heavy weapons battery and stationary objective control, with a commissar for morale, no upgrades besides HWTs, and a Vox to receive orders. The way you're running them, as solo squads with special weapons, Veteran squads do 100% better, since they are BS4, can take cheap defensive upgrades (stealth if on foot, carapace if in a transport) and can take 3 of the same special weapon.

I would keep one platoon (with GLs if you must have a special weapon), add in HWTs to all squads, and run them blobbed with a commissar just as a screen for your tanks. Then I would run the conscripts as your mild melee threat/deterrent with the priest, and I would add a mounted chimera veteran squad with melta guns to advance up alongside Pask and Pal.

And now, the hard stuff: how you're actually playing the game. I assume if you're playing TT simulator games, you'll be up against almost 100% super competitive netlists and bullcrap like that. You're not going to get a good gauge on what an actual opponent is going to bring, because there's no limiter on having to own and paint the models required for the list. Guard is going to have a veeeeeeery hard time in that environment.

How are your real-world opponents composed? What units are you generally facing? I know most competitive lists running around atm, so any kind of descriptor will give me a good idea. Also, are you one of the only new players? Is your group pretty new?

I have tyo agree as regards the Manticore. The Manticore is super good and once you realize its synergy with the Techpriest guy, you'll quite like them.

Hello DoctorAlex. I've been playing Guard since the original Eye of Terror codex was released, with the plastic Cadians. I lost only 2 games in 6tth edition, with my Combined Forces style of play with Guard, and since 7th have regularly been beaten. The 7th edition Guard codex gutted any mobility we had, in an edition focussed on forcing armies out of their deployment zones to capture objectives. I've been forced to take on an actively mobile style of war, either fully meched up, or using an infantry platoon as a meat shield to protect the tanks.

With this in mind, the Guard army must at a "competitive level" [Used VERY loosely...] keep this requirement in mind. Anything that sits still in your DZ may have no objectives to hold, using the BRB missions. In such a situation, your opponent simply has to deal with your units that intend to leave their DZ, and then you're stuck with trying to defend any objectives in your DZ, or if there are none, you'll straight lose. Further, you're damned to lose nearly any mission involving by-the-book kill points. It's the nature of the Guard's approach to war to win by attrition. You must lose units, to kill units. More on this later. Basically, if you take a traditional army with some sit'n'shoot units, your army composition loses any scenario without an objective in your DZ, and loses any scenario with kill points, before you even start the game. It is a straight handicap to you as a player, with no "In Codex" solutions, other than to avoid sit'n'shoot units. KP you're just going to lose, everytime you don't play Orks. *Shrug*. I've honestly just started asking to reroll mission if KP comes up, and most opponents immediately realize the pointlessness of playing that style mission anyhow.

My advice comes from the perspective that a "Competitive" list must attempt to use as much mobile firepower as possible. Further, my advice recognizes that if you must play a game in which you must leave your DZ to score objectives, that you will attempt to place as many objectives as possible near the centre of the board. That way, regardless of your DZ, you'll have a mostly predictable distance to travel to reach half of the available objectives, from which you will then need to play an end-game gambit of sprinting for one more objective, to contest or control. If this does not sound like your metagame, or you disagree with the premise, then this advice will probably fall short.

I'm going to add notes to your list, in Red through your list.

Doctoralex wrote:

For anyone interested, here was my army list from the latest tournament. Though I'd rather just talk on how I can do better as a Guard commander in general.

Combined Arms Detachment, 1850 points

HQ
Tank commander, Leman Russ Punisher, Hull-mounted Lascannon, Knight Commander Pask (Warlord),
Leman Russ Exterminator

I'm not fond of Pask, as you forfeit the ability to take 2 key pieces of gear. Kurov's Aquila and Valkov's Cane. That said, your choice of Exterminator as his wingman takes absolutely no benefit from his Warlord trait. He should have a Plasma-Cutioner as his partner. I would rather have a Company Command Squad, in a Chimera, with Kurov's Aquilla to provide the PE benefit to two, separate Russes, and anything else nearby, rather than one unit targeted by Pask. Bonus is that Kurov's works against all codices, should your opponent rock allies.

Regimental Specialists
1 Primaris Psyker, Master lvl 2, Force Axe,
1 Primaris Pskyer, Mastery lvl 1, Force Axe
1 Ministorum Priest, Autogun,

In my metagame, I frequently play against Eldar and Daemons. In both cases, they would have absolutely no problem "auto-denying" spells from these two Psykers. Your meta may be different, but these psykers would be a point-sink outside of a Psykanna Detachment. Do you frequently find your spells countered?

Troops,
Infantry platoon #1
Infantry squad, vox-caster, 1 grenade launcher 1 autcannon,
Infantry squad, 1 grenade launcher 1 autcannon,
Infantry squad, 1 grenade launcher 1 autcannon,

Conscripts, 20x conscripts,
Commissar /w Boltgun,

Infantry platoon #2 323 P
Infantry squad, vox-caster, 1 sniper rifle, 1 lascannon,
Infantry squad, 1 sniper rifle 1 lascannon,
Infantry squad, 1 sniper rifle 1 lascannon,
Infantry squad, 1 sniper rifle 1 lascannon,

Both of your platoons appear to be illegal, as neither has a Platoon Command Squad included. In general, these squads don't want to move. I always recommend taking a Plasmagun as the special. I've run the math many times over, and while people always point out that Infantry Squads miss half the time, when they do hit you're in the money. Guard lose models to kill models, it's the way of things. Speed Bumps, Chimeras, they all fall apart. We always lose models. The trick is to take greater value with you when you go, and that's the best we can do.


Emperor’s Wrath Artillery Company
Company Command Squad,
Dedicated transport: Taurox,
1 Veteran /W Sniper Rifle,
1 Veteran /W Regimental Standard,
1 Veteran /W Vox-caster,

1 Enginseer,

1 Basilisk battery;
2 basilisks,

1 Wyvern battery;
2 Wyverns,

1 Deathstrike Missile Launcher,

First off, take a Chimera. You can issue orders from a Chimera, not from a Taurox. Better armour means longer life. Take a Master of Ordnance. For his cost, if he hits once per game [quite possible if you can use his BS for correction] he's more than worth it. Take camo netting as well, and I'd strongly suggest an Aegis Defence line, with the Lascannon as part of your CAD. The Enginseer can man the gun, you've got guaranteed protection should someone get close to your tanks, you're indirect firing anyway, so clustering up isn't a big deal... and the Skyfire Lascannon is more useful against FMC, that typically have a better than 4+ save so the Quad does jack-all anyhow. The sniper rifle has no purpose, nor does the regimental standard, really. You don't want your infantry stuck in with your opponents. Let them get wiped out and run away so you can shoot the bad guys with your guns. Lastly, the CCS NEEEEEDS to take Volkov's cane, so that the tanks pass their orders reliably.

I'd suggest taking the two Bassies separately. That lets your CCS issue each of them an Ignore Cover order. Take the Manticore... the Deathstrike is complete garbage. Try a Manticore for one game, you'll see. It's a great Anti-Infantry platform. Fantastic vs Necrons. Just, the, best. Due to high Strength, few things get FNP against it. Those that do, may have to take 3 saves each. Remember, with the Spotter rule, you've got good odds to get tons of hits with the multi-blasts. And if you target something in cover, they'd get a save anyway, so the "poor" AP doesn't matter as much.

Take the Wyverns in the CAD. There's no Order that helps them out, and the Spotter rule doesn't help them either. By splitting things up, you're less likely to take a big loss through CC.

Your list has nothing that can realistically advance to capture objectives. One blob of Conscripts does not a reliable plan make. I'm sorry to say, this list completely ignores the "Win Conditions" of 7th edition, which require you to leave your DZ to capture objectives. Static gun lines don't work.

1) In my opinion the only solid use of Pask is double executioners with plasma sponsons. I base my whole list around that if I run that though, last time I tried it it looked something like: Pask with Executioners, independent LR Exterminator + HB sponsons, 3 Meltavets in Chimeras, and two vendettas, and I had some decent results whenever my positioning worked out, usually trying to restrict LoS to the Chimeras with the Russes.

But for a non-mechanised list HQ section, I'd say, take the CCS, +/- chimera for the artillery company formation, and leave it there. Its more than flexible enough to switch being ordering the artillery and issuing some orders to a HWT blob when the situation demands it. The only upgrades you need consider in that CCS is a vox caster (providing you don't do what I do, which is solve the order resolution problem by taking equal costed LD10 stubborn Inquisitors in place of Priests) and Volkov's Cane.

2) I never bother with Psykers, as others have said, sometimes they're just wasted points against psyker-based armies, and other times you really have to weigh up whether 100-125 pts is worth the odd bout of re-rolls to hit/ignores cover. Easier just to spend more points on something that will kill stuff and give your opponent more to shoot at.

Priests on the other hand are good because their inconsequential cost relative to their force multiplication is great and they make your blobs stand your ground and bayonet things to death twice as fast.

3) Grenade launchers are a waste, autocannons are mediocre, Lascannons are in the void between mediocre and barely usable. In my personal experience, don't bother with special weapons in squads because you'll almost always want the extra lasguns and points elsewhere instead. If you're going to run heavy weapons in blobs, my advice is, take 50 men in a single blob, give them 5 HWT's, expect them to hold a home objective and get orders from the CCS. Don't take a second blob like this. I personally run a second blob of 20-30 men with at most a vox (for the arty company) and a Priest attached as a mixed distraction/bullet sponge/forward objective holder. If the enemy shoots at them, make them waste their time by going to ground.

4) At a competitive level, in my opinion you stop getting effective returns from investing in guardsmen to make up blobs after about 70-80 men (exc. command squads) This is because once you start taking more Guardsmen than that they're just target practice, the main reasons for taking guardsmen are gone and you're losing out on points on vital fire support. I've never seen the point in conscripts for this reason, any list with conscripts is already likely to have enough standard guardsmen to do everything you'd expect from conscripts anyway, serving as bullet sponges, bubble wrap and objective holders. IG infantry are no good at being aggressive outside of a mechanised vehicle.

5) As others have said, don't bother with the Deathstrike, the Manticore is miles better. Though its only AP4, the S10 is excellent for hull-point stripping vehicles and instant-deathing annoying multi-wound models.

I don't like Wyverns. The EWAC doesn't offer them anything useful and they're only good at one thing (anti-infantry) that your Bassies and Manticore offer plenty of.

6) Personally if I'm playing competitively at this sort of points level, I swear by taking at least one Vendetta Gunship. It instantly gives you a huge boost on solving 3 different problems - monstrous creatures, heavy vehicles and flyers. It also gives you the opportunity to put either a PCS or at a stretch, maybe a squad of Scions, both with maxed out flamers inside, that can wait for an opportunity, ideally at the last second to seize an objective on the other end of the board. The sort of objective your opponent leaves to something like a squad of Eldar Rangers or Space Marine scouts.

Alot of good suggestions here. I'll throw in my two cents simply because no one is mentioning my favorite style of Guard play.

Castle Guard.

First thigns first. Look at Cadian Detachment, it is a huuuuge buff overall to the guard. CCS issuing 3 orders at 24" a turn rolling 3 dice drop the highest alone is worth dropping objective secured. Plus has a host of other benefits.

I take an Imperial Strong point 2-3 Bastions. Give them Laz cannons or quads, both good choices. If you're feeling sassy, give them void Shields.
Take at least 1 Ageis, I recommend 2, a 3 would be ever so sassy though. Give at least one a Autcannon turret, I also recommend giving them ammo stores (15-20s each but gives all units/squads rerolls of 1 to hit) based upon how many infantry you take.
Why should I pay that many points for a 4+ cover save you ask? How does a 2+ cover save for all infantry models going to ground sound? Sounds pretty great, that's how it sounds. Sassy.


Take the Aquilla Landing Pad. 75 points. Allows you to start a flyer on the table if you want. More importantly, grant nearly 1.5 feet of 4+ invulnerable saves. Yes, even to tanks placed ontop of it, dropping pie plates with sass.

Bastion are literal keeps for your CCS, who can shoot out of, drop ordinance and throw orders off of them. Your infantry blobs kitted out with (heavy weapons galore!!) goto ground when shot at for their fancy 2+ cover said thanks to the Aegis, your tanks and artillary (or even heavy weapon squads) throwing out their sassy shells with a 4++ thanks to the Landing platform.

But wait!? If I goto ground than my infantry are near useless for a turn, what good is all this Ageis lines if my troops surive but cant shoot!? I hear you cry. Remeber your CCS with 3 orders each at 24", "Get back in the fight!". Sassy orders.

Take at least 2 CCS ideally 3, 4 if you feel even more sassy. Stock, no upgrades other than a Master of Ordinance, except maybe a Laz cannon (do if synergies with your personal build).

As many regular guardsmen as you please. I take about 2-3 platoons of 30 each or more. Give them laz cannons or autocannons. Pew pew pew. (Remeber those ammo stores I told you to buy?)

Take at least one stock Leman Russ. No good guard can call himself honest without the mighty battle tank of lore! Plop in ontop of your Landing pad for a AV14 4++ sasshole.

Ideally, you should take some heavy weapon teams of autocannons and mortors. Mostly because they are fun. But if you want more competitive, take autocannons. Having huge Laz cannon infantry blobs, Bastions and 4++ tanks will make your two or three autocannon squads effectively ignored. Plus remember 2+ cover saves.

Everything else is just gravy. Psykana division to cast rerolls and other psyker shenananigans is great. Emperors wraith on top of the landing pad? Yes. that would fun. Emperor blade, if you want to get mobile or have a heavy hand to be aggresive with points is ideal.

Obviously the biggest set back of this sassy style, is the lack of mobility. However, two things help mitagate this. Guard have some of the best tanks in the game. Guard have the best artillery in the game. Plus gunships. Your sassy tanks and arty should be able to outgun all but the Tau, your arty should be able to ignore cover and reach those hard to hit sneaky knife eared Eldar and your battlecannons should do some work for just about everything.

I personally recommend the gunships, they are powerful, fast and can drop your vets or stormtroopers whereever they need ot be.


Hope this might be helpful or at least give you some ideas, as this is my favored guard way to play.

 Jancoran wrote:
I have tyo agree as regards the Manticore. The Manticore is super good and once you realize its synergy with the Techpriest guy, you'll quite like them.

How does the synergy work with the Techpriest?

 Tsol wrote:
Alot of good suggestions here. I'll throw in my two cents simply because no one is mentioning my favorite style of Guard play.

Castle Guard.

First thigns first. Look at Cadian Detachment, it is a huuuuge buff overall to the guard. CCS issuing 3 orders at 24" a turn rolling 3 dice drop the highest alone is worth dropping objective secured. Plus has a host of other benefits.

I take an Imperial Strong point 2-3 Bastions. Give them Laz cannons or quads, both good choices. If you're feeling sassy, give them void Shields.
Take at least 1 Ageis, I recommend 2, a 3 would be ever so sassy though. Give at least one a Autcannon turret, I also recommend giving them ammo stores (15-20s each but gives all units/squads rerolls of 1 to hit) based upon how many infantry you take.
Why should I pay that many points for a 4+ cover save you ask? How does a 2+ cover save for all infantry models going to ground sound? Sounds pretty great, that's how it sounds. Sassy.


Take the Aquilla Landing Pad. 75 points. Allows you to start a flyer on the table if you want. More importantly, grant nearly 1.5 feet of 4+ invulnerable saves. Yes, even to tanks placed ontop of it, dropping pie plates with sass.

Bastion are literal keeps for your CCS, who can shoot out of, drop ordinance and throw orders off of them. Your infantry blobs kitted out with (heavy weapons galore!!) goto ground when shot at for their fancy 2+ cover said thanks to the Aegis, your tanks and artillary (or even heavy weapon squads) throwing out their sassy shells with a 4++ thanks to the Landing platform.

But wait!? If I goto ground than my infantry are near useless for a turn, what good is all this Ageis lines if my troops surive but cant shoot!? I hear you cry. Remeber your CCS with 3 orders each at 24", "Get back in the fight!". Sassy orders.

Take at least 2 CCS ideally 3, 4 if you feel even more sassy. Stock, no upgrades other than a Master of Ordinance, except maybe a Laz cannon (do if synergies with your personal build).

As many regular guardsmen as you please. I take about 2-3 platoons of 30 each or more. Give them laz cannons or autocannons. Pew pew pew. (Remeber those ammo stores I told you to buy?)

Take at least one stock Leman Russ. No good guard can call himself honest without the mighty battle tank of lore! Plop in ontop of your Landing pad for a AV14 4++ sasshole.

Ideally, you should take some heavy weapon teams of autocannons and mortors. Mostly because they are fun. But if you want more competitive, take autocannons. Having huge Laz cannon infantry blobs, Bastions and 4++ tanks will make your two or three autocannon squads effectively ignored. Plus remember 2+ cover saves.

Everything else is just gravy. Psykana division to cast rerolls and other psyker shenananigans is great. Emperors wraith on top of the landing pad? Yes. that would fun. Emperor blade, if you want to get mobile or have a heavy hand to be aggresive with points is ideal.

Obviously the biggest set back of this sassy style, is the lack of mobility. However, two things help mitagate this. Guard have some of the best tanks in the game. Guard have the best artillery in the game. Plus gunships. Your sassy tanks and arty should be able to outgun all but the Tau, your arty should be able to ignore cover and reach those hard to hit sneaky knife eared Eldar and your battlecannons should do some work for just about everything.

I personally recommend the gunships, they are powerful, fast and can drop your vets or stormtroopers whereever they need ot be.


Hope this might be helpful or at least give you some ideas, as this is my favored guard way to play.

If you take the CBG and want anything more than a HQ unit you have to take at least one core choice. You get three auxiliary choices for each core. That means you need a bare minimum 170 Guardsmen or 5 Leman Russes. Both suffer from being well over the reasonable limit you want to impose on yourself for fielding either. You also can't take fortifications with that detachment as I recall.

The CBG also sucks because if you want to field the odd extra artillery piece or tank, you have to invest in a whole company. You can't take one Russ - you have to take 5.

The infantry company at 170 models is way too cumbersome, expensive and mediocre. But if you're not taking a whole bunch of infantry with a CBG, you're wasting your detachment rules.

You might want to re-read that. Core choices are 0-3. So you can Take as many CCS or Tank Commander units as your heart desires, in a Battleforged army.

While most of the benefits are useless outside the formation, you do get a free Order upgrade and distance upgrade, for taking them by themselves. Lulz... if you've ever wanted to play as many Lascannon / MoO units as you could possibly squeeze into a force, you can do it at 100 points per pop. 15 inaccurate pieplates plus lascannons that ignore cover are going to do something... at 1500 points.

Also, so long as you're willing to take pairs of Leman Russ, you can field as many Pairs of Russes as you want. 3 isn't enough? How about 5, one with improved BS? 7? 9? Plus orders, for what they're worth. Makes tank-hunting Vanquishers less terrible.

Yes, the Cadian Formation has no slot for fortifications, but that's not really hard to fix. CADS, unbound, battleforged and even some allied shenanigans is not hard to implement. I personally prefer Cult mechanicus but OP can use whatever they please.

But as Great Big Tree said, the only requirment in Cadian Detachment is one HQ. Everything else can be tacked on as you see fit. If you double check the entry you can even see you can take individual squads of a few varieties, such as just a infantry platoon, not to be confused with the Emperors shield platoon. Its probably the most open detachment currently out there.

This is all excellent advice. You need mobility in your list. Chimera Mechvets, Hellhounds (a little overpriced but it can score you those objectives), Vendettas, Taurox Primes, Wyverns; these are units to build a 7th Edition maelstrom list around.

Edit: And regarding Pask, he is a minimum 400 point target just begging to be deleted instantly by a Grav Centurion drop. I don't recommend individual high point units as Guard, they are too easily killed by just about anything and, in Punisher Pask's case, due to his short range, quite possibly before they can do anything of note. If you lose Pask, and you will lose him first enemy turn vs a competitive army, you are basically crippled for the rest of the game. Once you are crippled as Guard, there is little chance of coming back. Better to spread your points out by investing in a higher number of more mundane units than in a single super unit.

obviously, you are not running Veterans.

Pick up some of those Armored Fist boxes that come with a chimera and 10 cadians, make this squad (its doing amazing for me)

10 veterans, 2 plasma guns, 1 melta gun, Demolitions and Grenadier doctrines.... Chimera as dedicated transport.

Basically, I run 4 of these units and flat out turn one and get in their face. IT does very nicely.

You've got some decent stuff to field. I'd second the Emperor's Wrath adding a Master of Ordnance to the unit, a Lascannon or Missile Launcher as well. They really do want a Chimera for orders, though. Sadly the Hammer of the Emperor list doesn't benefit units outside the Formation much so unless you have either 5 Russ and another Enginseer or 165 foot models you're not going to be able to play it as you can't take Auxiliaries until you take a Core. I'd second moving the Wyverns to the Heavy slots and run two Basilisks with a Manticore in your Artillery Formation, the Deathstrike is just not good while the Manticore does crazy amounts of damage, especially with Ignores Cover. Blob your squads, add a Commissar to one. Priest or another Commmissar can go with the Conscripts (also not a terrible spot for the Psyker if you keep him away from Commissars) as a speed bump/deep strike no fly zone. The big problem with Russ is that if you run less than a half dozen they rarely do much, and even when you do they tend to be underwhelming. Use them because they are cool and you like them, not because they are good (they usually aren't).

Veterans can do work, and keep in mind that Conscripts are really good but they also only bring lasguns to bear- if you have the points and the Heavy Weapons you might want to try to use those models in Infantry Squads and see if you fare better. I love my Conscripts but they are only good when they receive orders readily for FRFSRF or with a Priest and some lucky rolling. They also do best when they are protecting more important units.

Guard are very tough to play, but it feels really good when you manage a win with them. Good luck!




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Also: Yes, Hellhounds are good, better than Russ in my experience.

I have no idea why you'd use hellhounds any more when wyverns are there. Anything hellhounds do, wyverns do better (aside from being a fast vehicle I guess)

It's a totally different slot, a fast vehicle that can take ground while firing both (or all three if you take a stubber) weapons, has game against high T models and vehicles, and is armour 12 front and sides. It's an entirely different model. It can do things and kill things that the Wyvern really can't.

I guess if you fill the heavy support slots it could be viable - though you can take squadrons of wyverns which kind of makes that a little redundant.

Wyverns are tougher - they are two tanks against one. Also the hellhound will need to put itself in harms way to have effect where wyverns can hide in the backfield in terrain or out of LOS. If you manage to get the hellhound's heavy flamer in range then it is massively close to the enemy and basically any army should be able to finish off a 125pt AV12 tank efficiently.

It damage output against vehicles is pretty negligible, and against AV10 2 wyverns will do more hull points anyway from 48 inches range. You don't pay for a 125pt tank to have a 5+ chance to damage an AV11 vehicle.

The only real damage advantage it has is against T3 multi wound models with a 4+ or worse save. They do exist (e.g. skitarii infiltrators) but they're few and far between. Against pretty much any other infantry wyverns do better damage against.

I'd happily run the hellhound if it was pointed appropriately, but it'd have to be around the 80-90pt mark to compete with the currently very undercosted wyvern.

There aren't really enough superlatives to use when describing a Wyvern. Its performance so far outstrips its cost, that it is just an excellent inclusion in any Astra militarum force.

It does not benefit as much from the Emperors Wrath Battery though and so i often have seen people throw the Hydras in for Ignores Cover goodness on FMC's and then the Wyverns placed in a CAD or some similar device.

Hellhounds are quite good, but they just aren't priced well. It isnt that they don't and can't do work. It's that the same number of points unfortunately yields you better elsewhere. I will say the Chem Cannon version is really fantastically deadly and just what the Doctor ordered if you can keep it alive and skirt it into position but I have rarely seen it done outside of tank armies that create competing priorities for it to hide among.

There's been a lot of advice posted here already, so I'll try to keep this categorized. I actually just got back from playing in the maelstrom tourney and apoc tourney at Adepticon this year. So here goes:

- Emp's wrath artillery battery: Keep using it, but it needs some changes.
Drop all the upgrades to that command squad and instead give your commander volkov's cane and throw in the master of ordnance. Additionally, switch the deathstrike out for a manticore, that thing is a beast. Keep the 2 basilisks in the same squadron because your commander only has 2 orders. PRO TIP: If someone shoots one of your artillery tanks and causes them to become shaken or stunned, the techpriest can get out of the chimera and make them fire anyways with power of the machine spirit. It's endlessly frustrating for your opponent to watch that happen, trust me.

- Infantry: Here's my take on it.. you only need one blob, and their sole purpose is to sit back with a priest and hold onto your side while at the same time keeping deepstrikers and MC's away from your artillery. The rest of your infantry should be vet squads mounted in chimeras and armed with 2 meltaguns each (there's only 2 fire points in a chimera). The Chimeras should be constantly pressing forward and keeping the pressure on your enemies to deal with them vs going after your back board. The mechmeltavets are your objective takers, don't be afraid to move them at cruising speed and/or flat out them to grab objectives. They are still cheap enough to be expendable and durable enough to weather a lot of enemy fire.

-Hellhounds: I personally like hellhounds, I usually take the regular hellhound and put a multi-melta on the hull to make it a threat to anything on the board. Fast vehicles are nicer than you think, and torrent str6 ap4 flamer is also nicer than you think. I've heard people say the eradicator is better, but I disagree. See, the eradicator does one thing the hellhound literally can't. MISS. And it's the opposite end of the spectrum as the eradicator can't even move flat out at all much less go fast. Hellhounds are not by any means a must take, but they're better than people give them credit for in my book. Also, quick note that I've seen too many people forget, the hellhound is av 12/12/10, so you never have to worry about exposing side armor.

-Wyverns: yes Yes YES! Spam these, no, seriously spam these. Think 6 is too many? Think again. Not only good at removing infantry from the board, but they can glance AV10 side(or front) armor to death if you mass enough shots on the target. Just take as many as you can. No no.. do not ask questions. Just take them.

-Leman Russes: Just don't bother with them, period, not even pask. He's too risky, too pricey and too easy to give your opponent a free warlord kill. I know his offensive firepower seems tempting, but trust me on this, he's mediocre at best. If you MUST put almost 400 pts into tanks... see below for my advice on the Stormsword

-Flyers: Take 1 vendetta and you should be good. If flyers are very popular where you play, take 2. 'nuff said. They make mince meat out of other flyers and serve a dual purpose of being vehicle/mc hunters.

-Superheavies: Grab a Stormsword if you can. For 480 ptsEvery opponent at the maelstrom tourney wasted tremendous resources going after it because it is a MAJOR threat. Even super friends deathstars do not like them because if they don't get first turn you will put a 10 inch hole in them. In case you don't have its main gun stats handy.. here's what it is: 36" range Str10 AP1 ignores cover, primary weapon, 10" apocalyptic blast. It is quite literally 1 step from a straight up D blast, and if you think 36" isn't long enough range, remember that the stormsword can move 12" and still fire it.

I hope all this helps.

 chrispy1991 wrote:
There's been a lot of advice posted here already, so I'll try to keep this categorized. I actually just got back from playing in the maelstrom tourney and apoc tourney at Adepticon this year. So here goes:

- Emp's wrath artillery battery: Keep using it, but it needs some changes.
Drop all the upgrades to that command squad and instead give your commander volkov's cane and throw in the master of ordnance. Additionally, switch the deathstrike out for a manticore, that thing is a beast. Keep the 2 basilisks in the same squadron because your commander only has 2 orders. PRO TIP: If someone shoots one of your artillery tanks and causes them to become shaken or stunned, the techpriest can get out of the chimera and make them fire anyways with power of the machine spirit. It's endlessly frustrating for your opponent to watch that happen, trust me.

Indeed. I second this completely.


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 chrispy1991 wrote:
There's been a lot of advice posted here already, so I'll try to keep this categorized. I actually just got back from playing in the maelstrom tourney and apoc tourney at Adepticon this year. So here goes:

- Infantry: Here's my take on it.. you only need one blob, and their sole purpose is to sit back with a priest and hold onto your side while at the same time keeping deepstrikers and MC's away from your artillery. The rest of your infantry should be vet squads mounted in chimeras and armed with 2 meltaguns each (there's only 2 fire points in a chimera). The Chimeras should be constantly pressing forward and keeping the pressure on your enemies to deal with them vs going after your back board. The mechmeltavets are your objective takers, don't be afraid to move them at cruising speed and/or flat out them to grab objectives. They are still cheap enough to be expendable and durable enough to weather a lot of enemy fire.

Basic message here is good too. while I dont agree o nthe use of the blob, the use he describes is very valid, and a totally effective way to do it. The pressure forward cant be overstated if you are doing it this way..


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 chrispy1991 wrote:
There's been a lot of advice posted here already, so I'll try to keep this categorized. I actually just got back from playing in the maelstrom tourney and apoc tourney at Adepticon this year. So here goes:

-Hellhounds: I personally like hellhounds, I usually take the regular hellhound and put a multi-melta on the hull to make it a threat to anything on the board. Fast vehicles are nicer than you think, and torrent str6 ap4 flamer is also nicer than you think. I've heard people say the eradicator is better, but I disagree. See, the eradicator does one thing the hellhound literally can't. MISS. And it's the opposite end of the spectrum as the eradicator can't even move flat out at all much less go fast. Hellhounds are not by any means a must take, but they're better than people give them credit for in my book. Also, quick note that I've seen too many people forget, the hellhound is av 12/12/10, so you never have to worry about exposing side armor.

Again agreed. The Hellhound over the Chem Cannon I might debate but the basic way he's using it is correct and back door enemies who come in on you wont like the hellhound, nor the chemcannon and the melta is a must if you do take a hellhound.


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 chrispy1991 wrote:
There's been a lot of advice posted here already, so I'll try to keep this categorized. I actually just got back from playing in the maelstrom tourney and apoc tourney at Adepticon this year. So here goes:

-Wyverns: yes Yes YES! Spam these, no, seriously spam these. Think 6 is too many? Think again. Not only good at removing infantry from the board, but they can glance AV10 side(or front) armor to death if you mass enough shots on the target. Just take as many as you can. No no.. do not ask questions. Just take them.

Hilarious delivery. also: absolutely true.


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 chrispy1991 wrote:


-Leman Russes: Just don't bother with them, period, not even pask. He's too risky, too pricey and too easy to give your opponent a free warlord kill. I know his offensive firepower seems tempting, but trust me on this, he's mediocre at best. If you MUST put almost 400 pts into tanks... see below for my advice on the Stormsword

I hate agreeing with this but it just seems true. Pask is good and no one should be denying that fact. It's just the armor. Armor just is not good enough to overpay for it. Certain tanks can be exceptions to that (typically on the lesser end fo the cost scale) but the higher the armor value the more i feel you end up overpaying for it. That is hy the Emperors Wrath Battery is so worthwhile: it actually isnt as tough on paper but its also not as overpriced.


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 chrispy1991 wrote:
There's been a lot of advice posted here already, so I'll try to keep this categorized. I actually just got back from playing in the maelstrom tourney and apoc tourney at Adepticon this year. So here goes:
-Flyers: Take 1 vendetta and you should be good. If flyers are very popular where you play, take 2. 'nuff said. They make mince meat out of other flyers and serve a dual purpose of being vehicle/mc hunters.

I feel like this depends on whether you like Hydras in the Emperors Wrath Battery. If you dont like them in it, then you have GOT to have something to at least Try to knock the Psyker batteries for Magnus out of the sky or take down one of the three Storm Ravens or drop kick the Flyrants to get them to a manageable number of dice. SOME form of anti-air is advisable.


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 chrispy1991 wrote:
There's been a lot of advice posted here already, so I'll try to keep this categorized. I actually just got back from playing in the maelstrom tourney and apoc tourney at Adepticon this year. So here goes:

-Superheavies: Grab a Stormsword if you can. For 480 ptsEvery opponent at the maelstrom tourney wasted tremendous resources going after it because it is a MAJOR threat. Even super friends deathstars do not like them because if they don't get first turn you will put a 10 inch hole in them. In case you don't have its main gun stats handy.. here's what it is: 36" range Str10 AP1 ignores cover, primary weapon, 10" apocalyptic blast. It is quite literally 1 step from a straight up D blast, and if you think 36" isn't long enough range, remember that the stormsword can move 12" and still fire it.

I hope all this helps.

Choose your spots carefuly on this. The Stormsword is up against Magnus, StormSurges and WraithKnights, all of which will wreck that StormSword. the StormSurge in particular can REALLY make iot a short game if you take one...and you WILL be seeing a Stormsurge in tournament play at some point, more likely than you wont.

I love the Storm Sword but i do not love the Storm Sword. It is just so GOOD in some matchups but it is just so bad in others. The feast or famine nature of it gives me serious pause.

"then you have GOT to have something to at least Try to knock the Psyker batteries for Magnus out of the sky or take down one of the three Storm Ravens or drop kick the Flyrants to get them to a manageable number of dice. SOME form of anti-air is advisable. "

I have a good record vs both flyrants and stormravens with no AA of any kind. I don't know about magnus psyker batteries. However, it also makes a difference that I frequently end up with every model in CC vs Tyranids (I frequently table the ground bugs), and stormravens are just too overcosted and undergunned for 7th ed meta. I've crippled other BA lists, GK lists and the like before their Stormravens could affect the game in any meaningful way. If you have no good targets for D-effects, maybe you can ignore Magnus as well.

Most AA is only AP 4, and won't force a jink from an MC anyway. Fail.

On the other hand, BA have nothing as cost-effective as a hydra, so maybe they are worth bringing in the battery formation. But at the end of the day, most fliers suck. The few good ones do get spammed in some lists, but they can't hold objectives while zooming or swooping. That's the key weakness to exploit, imo. Pour your firepower into their ground targets and shut down their scoring.

Hellhounds always perform for me. I'm fairly convinced no one who actually plays them thinks they are bad. Wyvernsare great for the cost but they also die just as easily as any other Chimera chassis. I have also seen them miss enough times, or do little enough damage, to think they are appropriately cheap. A 100 point Hellhound would be great, sure. I use it as more or less a poor man's Russ. It kills Ork Bike Nobz, Tyranid Warriors, Gargoyles, Venomthropes, Necrons, Stealth Suits, light skmmers, Tankbustas, Raiders and Venoms and the guys in them, Land Speeders, Scouts and MSU Marines. It's the zero miss chance that's key, and the fact that it wounds on 2's or 2's with rerolls in the Assault Formation.

aushlo wrote:
Hellhounds always perform for me. I'm fairly convinced no one who actually plays them thinks they are bad.

I agree. I dont think you should take anything I said as a condemnation of the Hellhound. Merely that I hesitate to do it when less expensive options exist. One of those includes the Wyverns themselves! I love the ChemCannon as well but as I said... cost... Its iffy. I dont think its like a game breaking decision or anything. Just...coasts along that borderline because: more wyverns. Or Manticores. and so on.

aushlo wrote:
Hellhounds always perform for me. I'm fairly convinced no one who actually plays them thinks they are bad.

Hellhounds look cool, but points-wise, I'd rather field Eradicators.

Is the hellhound AP 3?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

aushlo wrote:
Hellhounds always perform for me. I'm fairly convinced no one who actually plays them thinks they are bad.

Hellhounds look cool, but points-wise, I'd rather field Eradicators.

well the argument FOR the eradicator is its armor. But unless you can create a good argument for how significantly that will play, I dont think its better. Not missing is significant.


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Martel732 wrote:
Is the hellhound AP 3?

AP 4

AP4 is significantly less sexy than AP 3. That's pretty scary for some armies, but many are just going to not care too much.