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Portland

So... with the 30k variants being introduced to 40k (imperials only, that is... ), trying to feel out the different styles there are. There's some nice aesthetic variety, but, past that, trying to figure out load outs/roles...

Some thoughts below, anything I'm not seeing or that you disagree with?

Standard:
-The only ones which can rock the TH/SS assault option
-Assault Cannon + Cyclone options... but I'm not really sure they're the best platforms for either assault cannons or missile launchers, and storm bolters (marginally better at long range, marginally worse at short range

TH/SS-dominated assault units still have a decent place, don't really see ranged terminators as worth anything unless you love those specific guns. The loss of a grenade harness matters less in the right transport.

Cataphractii:
-can do melee/ranged mix, can't take assault cannons/cyclones, still access to the standard HF
-can take a grenade harness
-better invulnerable but no running
-MC power sword FWIW...

PF/CF, heavy weapon, assault grenades, lightning claws seem like a slightly more average/flexible version of running a mix of TH/SS + LC's, without the high saves but with around the same average save and a little more offense, and for cheaper
They seem like they can do better short-ranged anti infantry than ranged terminators if they're teleporting in. Speaking of which, these seem like the best deep striking options since they have good short ranged options (allowing them to attack the turn they appear) while retaining a solid save.


Tartaros
-can do mix, again no AC/cyc, but can take autocannons and sgt can take nicer guns than run of the mill combi bolters
-can take grenade harness
-can sweeping
-again, nicer sword

They seem like a better unit to take, in a transport (due to worse invulnerable), against lighter targets that they can expect to sweep? They can be geared up with a pretty reliable volume of 6 s 7 shots so could go against medium targets.






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Taratos are IMHO youir best option if you want a lighting claw squad, perhaps as a bully unit against a blob.

Cataphracti are mostly good for if you want slightly more durable tactial termies (perhaps the ideal choice if a formation requires a squad of termies and you just wanna toss a bare squad in)

the standard mark are obviously your go to for hammernators or assault cannons

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/02 23:26:29


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I used to run a large White Scars Cataphractii blob in a LR Crusader with a kitted out Captain of the same armor. Everyone at the two GW's I went to that didn't play Tau said that was the scariest thing on the board and I ran a 5 man Dev Centurian blob w/ full Grav and a Librarian giving out Prescience. I'd say Cataphractii are the most dangerous.

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Hubcap





South Carolina, United States

I picked up Prospero last year and haven't touched it yet because I have other models already in the paint-and-build queue, but I've been thinking about how to run the Tartaros terminators from the box. Here are my thoughts:

I see Tartaros terminators as a generalist terminator unit very similar to vanilla tactical terminators, but with the option of superior close-range shooting as well as more flexible CC loadouts with the ability to sweep. Tartaros are the same as Cataphractii and CSM in that they come standard with combi-bolters which means worse shooting than vanilla tactical terminators at ranges above 12" but better firepower below that range bracket. As others have said, they lack access to CMLs which also limits their very long range shooting. However, access to a reaper autocannon gives them respectable shooting, giving them good light vehicle (and even AAA/FMC in a pinch because of Twin-linked). The heavy flamer is still not my favorite terminator weapon by a long shot, BUT Tartaros are a better platform than Cataphractii in that they can use it to overwatch. Plasma Blaster on the Sergeant pairs well with a reaper for additional S7 shooting at close range and also gives you the only ranged weapon capable of ignoring 2+ or 3+ armor saves. Actually this is noteworthy as one of the only AP2 termi weapons of the game. Other than combi weapons or DA plasma cannons, the plasma blaster is the only AP2 option for most people. Assault 2 is nice to a point, but there's only a 6" bracket where it's better than a standard plasma gun, and you're losing 6" of range compared to a PG for that extra shot (once again confirming Tartaros pattern termis as close-range generalists). The fact that it comes on the sergeant and doesn't interfere with taking a squad heavy weapon is excellent as well*. I'm going to generally ignore the Volkite Charger. It's cool looking, but worse range than the plasma blaster, mediocre strength and AP and the option to generate a maximum of 4 hits is not much justification over the standard combi-bolter. If you could swap out the weaponry for the whole squad, it would be one thing (I'm talking 40k rules only here...) but I just don't see the utility of a single weapon.

*excellent in that you don't have to give up a heavy weapon for it, less excellent in that you can only ever have one in a unit. Interestingly, I think this makes larger, ten-man squad a little less enticing in some ways...

Here is my proposed load-out for a 5 man squad:
3x combi-bolters, Reaper AC, Plasma Blaster, 4x Single Lightning Claws, 1x Powerfist or Chainfist

Probably the breakdown would be:
1x Sergeant: Plasma Blaster/Lightning Claw
2x LC/Combi-Bolter
1x Powerfist (or CF)/Combi-Bolter
1x LC/Reaper AC

Here's my reasoning:
Weapons
If you want double lightning claws in any number, you'll usually want Cataphractii terminators for the added durability since Cataphractii win over both assault and Tartaros in this respect. BUT, lightning claws allow you to strike at initiative in CC which for Tartaros who have a poorer invul. compared to TH/SS assault or Cataphractii is an important consideration. It allows them to swing before most of the CC weapons that have AP2 have a chance to harm them. The sergeant replaces his sword with a claw because there's almost no reason not to. He doesn't have a pistol so he can't generate an extra attack from the sword. Statistically, the single LC is going to out-perform the sword unless you're swinging against something where the slight boost to your ability to hit your target trumps your ability to wound--conceivably possible, but generally less likely. I'm thinking to add a single fist or Chainfist just for the utility of the higher strength CC hits --a power fist if you want to save on points, a chain fist if you want more punch against vehicles and as a walker deterrent.

Here is the interesting thing about the 4x single LC and 1x Chainfist set up. It's statistically going to kill as many tactical marines as a vanilla tactical terminator squad--about 5.75 marines on-the-charge. The vanilla powerfist attacks are a bit more effective than the single LCs, but the vanilla squad is stuck with an un-upgradable powersword sergeant. The real advantage of the claws is initiative as stated above.

Plasma Blaster and Reaper AC because they are generally the two best special weapons for the squad and give good quality shooting especially below 12" where the combi-bolters reach their sweet spot.

Tactics
Basically shoot, assault, repeat. Tactical squads or other MEQ are your assault targets. Plasma Blaster and Reaper should open up their transports well enough. just try to pick your targets well. Anything less than power armor and your claws are doing over-kill; anything more, and you'll be bogged down and only killing off the occasional goon with your Chainfist. Don't charge anything too scary. Remember these guys are still flexible generalists. Don't run them into a suicidal charge against a Deathstar.

You could add the grenade harness if you feel the need. With the claws, you'd actually benefit from it if assaulting into cover. Alternatively, you could also just run them in an LRC. Personally, I'd just teleport them in or footslog. An LRC is an expensive upgrade and if you're chauffeuring them straight into assault, you might as well run hammernators, or LC Cataphracts.

HQ Pairing
The first one that comes to mind is Marneus Calgar. He is, of course, ludicrously expensive. He's also the only HQ in the vanilla 'dex that can sweeping advance while wearing TDA so if sweep is important to you and you reeeeally want an HQ in termi armor to go with your terminators, he's your guy. It's not like he's a liability to the squad since he can contribute to shooting with AP 2 bolters and he's a filthy beast in assault. He also costs more the the rest of the squad combined, so at that point you may have to ask yourself who is really babysitting whom. It's too bad we can't have generic HQs in Tartaros like they had for Cataphractii armor...sigh
Other than that, you've got your other generic terminator HQ options if you don't care about losing sweep. Or you could run anything in regular power armor or artificer if you don't care about teleport.

Personally, I'm inclined to suggest running them without an HQ just to keep the cost down and use them as a support unit to your other big scary threats.

Alternate Load-outs
Bringing both the Reaper AC and the Plasma Blaster is an expensive combo so here are a few alternatives to save on points:
• Plasma Blaster, 4x single LC, 4x Combi-bolter, 1x Chainfist --lose the autocannon completely and just go with the PB as your special weapon. Makes the squad even more dependent on close range shooting, but lessens the sticker shock.
• Plasma Blaster, 4x single LC, 3x Combi-bolter, 1x Heavy Flamer, Chainfist --same as above but with the heavy flamer just for cheap(ish) kicks before you charge into assault as well as Overwatch hits against things like Genestealers
• Plasma Blaster, 3x single LC, 1x Double Claws, 3x Combi-bolter, Chainfist --replace the heavy with twin claws for extra CC power. You only get one extra attack for this which i'm not sure is a great trade even if it doesn't cost you points.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/04/03 20:59:50


 
   
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Portland

Thanks for the thoughts. Yeah, I can see them as a pretty solid close-range generalist unit. I have a bit of trouble seeing room for a kind of expensive unit that can't go against other particularly threatening things, but I feel like they'd run well enough in a smaller game.

What's your reasoning for not sticking the PF/CF on the heavy?

Also, it seems like the MC power sword would be slightly more reliable than a LC?


Regarding running them with characters, I'll be running them in an Astral Claws army. My command choices besides the generic are:

Huron (basically a chapter master with term armor, HF, and souped up single lightning claw w/ AP2 and force invulnerables to reroll)
Sumatris (basically a captain with MC power sword, storm shield, and melee buffs: has and grants furious charge and +1 WS to non-characters he's with)
A techmarine who'll never be on the front line, and a confusingly lame captain (seriously, he's basically a chaplain with a rending chainsword instead of a crozius for 105 points?) who'll probably never be on the table

Huron seems like he'd want a tougher unit- cataphractii or SS terminators- to really get stuck in and wreck things in big games.

I'm still not sure where to stick Sumatris. I'm not sure if it would be overkill to stick him with a terminator squad. I'm kind of leaning towards giving him an honor guard squad in larger games, since they're pretty cheap if you have a delivery vehicle and I feel those buffs could push them to a better use. But, in a game where that's not an option, maybe that would work with tartaros terminators?


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South Carolina, United States

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Thanks for the thoughts. Yeah, I can see them as a pretty solid close-range generalist unit. I have a bit of trouble seeing room for a kind of expensive unit that can't go against other particularly threatening things, but I feel like they'd run well enough in a smaller game.

What's your reasoning for not sticking the PF/CF on the heavy?

Also, it seems like the MC power sword would be slightly more reliable than a LC?


Regarding running them with characters, I'll be running them in an Astral Claws army. My command choices besides the generic are:

Huron (basically a chapter master with term armor, HF, and souped up single lightning claw w/ AP2 and force invulnerables to reroll)
Sumatris (basically a captain with MC power sword, storm shield, and melee buffs: has and grants furious charge and +1 WS to non-characters he's with)
A techmarine who'll never be on the front line, and a confusingly lame captain (seriously, he's basically a chaplain with a rending chainsword instead of a crozius for 105 points?) who'll probably never be on the table

Huron seems like he'd want a tougher unit- cataphractii or SS terminators- to really get stuck in and wreck things in big games.

I'm still not sure where to stick Sumatris. I'm not sure if it would be overkill to stick him with a terminator squad. I'm kind of leaning towards giving him an honor guard squad in larger games, since they're pretty cheap if you have a delivery vehicle and I feel those buffs could push them to a better use. But, in a game where that's not an option, maybe that would work with tartaros terminators?


I guess my inclination with the Chainfist/heavy weapon is just that sticking all of those upgrades on a single model makes him quite expensive for a single-wound dude—even with a 2+ save. I think arguments could be made both ways. If you DO lose him and he's got both weapons, it's going to sting more, but alternatively, I suppose you're statistically more likely that at least ONE of your weapons (either the chainfist or the Reaper) are going to be sniped out thereby limiting your effectiveness more gradually if you split them up between two models. I guess it depends on how much of a gambler you are.

Re: MC sword vs Single Claw:
Mathhammer says a single master-crafted power sword is going to kill somewhere around .875 marines on the charge. Alternatively, a single claw kills 1.25 marines on the charge. Under typical circumstances, the benefit of using a sword is that you get an extra attack because in your model's other hand, they have a pistol so they get an extra attack for having 2 CCWs. In this case, the sword out-performs the claw on weaker foes with more bodies because of the higher number of attacks, while the claw slightly out-performs the sword against MEQ. Unfortunately, no weapon the sergeant has access to counts as a pistol--therefore not an additional CCW, and therefor no extra attack. In these circumstances, even with the reroll from MC, you're just not going to out-perform the single claw.

I agree Huron is probably a better candidate for other, more tanky CC options like you said.
Sumatris does sound like a good candidate for honor guard, but I think he might potentially work in a squad of Tartaros. The downside I see there is just that you can't teleport them in which means either transport or footslog. If you footslog, you're not going to be as effective as stormbolter/CML standard termies so you might as well run the first turn or two to get them into position more quickly because of their relative range deficiency. If you transport, you don't get to use your weapons as you advance. Then again... if you teleport in, you're looking at at least one turn off the board anyway. You could always consider psychic transport options too...

Actually, I could see an interesting list where you ran a unit of Tartaros Terminators in a Landraider Redeemer. Pod in a pair of ironclads and maybe a few LSS scout squads or other in-your-face units if you wanted to get theme-y and make everything really aggressive. The idea would be to run the LRR up as fast as possible while the ironclads and other units distract and then basically drop the Tartaros squad up front. You don't even necessarily need them to dive into CC right away, you just need to get them in close so they can contribute to everything else. Sounds fun at least, but you could probably argue there'd be better options than Tartaros in that case.

Eh, anyway... I never really go for super-competitive cheese so I wouldn't know the first thing about making a highly-focused tournament list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/03 20:41:53


 
   
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The only thing that's not a waste of time is a Cata captain to hand out SnP to heavy weapons. Termies with a good invulnerable save die to small arms, termies without a good invulnerable save die to a combination of small arms and ap2. None of the various squads can have any reasonable firepower, so you might as well opt for melee, in which case hammernators are your go to. Unless you fight nothing but 3+ armour all day every day, in which case LClaw Cataphractii are better than Indomitus LClaw Assault Terminators.

If you must though, a squad of 5 fits in a fast attack drop pod, so if you pick your targets well, you could be a nice distraction on a flank with minimal upgrades beyond maybe a chainfist or two for cracking harder targets of opportunity or anti walker duty.

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Portland

Oh, for some reason I was thinking MC was all reroll, not a single. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

On the gamble, yeah, makes sense. I was thinking more about what it would look like if I was taking twin LCs.

Yeah, I'm also not a competitive player, but I do want my units to be built in a way that makes sense since I don't care for magnetizing if I can just take the right set to begin with. No reason to put a bunch of effort into painting pretty models if I'm going to regret fielding them.

Darn, I like the look of tartaros, but it feels like cataphractii do most things better, or, rather, I think I'm looking for tough over a little more offense in this case.


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I quite like the Cataphractii Terminators. For 10pts less than a TH/SS, you lose the ability to run, have a -1 Invuln, and don't get concussive, but you gain the ability to bring some pretty significant shooting capacity - And, again, it's 10ppm less. In an age where durability and cost effectiveness is king, taking a barebones squad of Cataphractii (Or maybe a squad with one heavy weapon) seems like it's by far the ideal choice for filling up mandatory slots in formations, and taking a larger squad is going to be superior in almost every way to vanilla Tactical Terminators, since losing the ability to run but gaining better durability and short-range shooting seems vastly superior to me.

As for Tartaros... I really like that they can sweep *in theory*, but so many units are immune to Leadership these days, and they don't have the durability or statline to make me think that they will really be killing anyone that is both sweepable and valuable.
   
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Portland

Hmm. That's a good point re: targets worth their time :/


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It is nice to be able to fire overwatch, especially if you have flamers and weapons with a high number of shots. Cataphractii can't do that, so that's a mark against them. It might not matter, or it might be hugely important depending on your planned role for the unit.

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Anyone gave a thought to Space Wolf Wolf Guard Terminators? They can mix shooty and punchy in a single Squad as well, they have.counter attacks and can become WS5 in the right Detachment, and most importantly their Stormshield comes free (despite replacing the power weapons) so the only threat to them are the high volume of mid-high Str shots / attacks.

Some of my thought are as follows

Going small unit
Wolf Guard Terminator (144pts)
3men,
Assault Cannon and Chain fist, 2 combi melta and Stormshields.

I want them cheaper and still be a capable threat
Wolf Guard Terminator (129pts)
3men,
Combi melta and Chain fist, 2 combi melta and Stormshields.

I want to go big and fluffy and Fun but still be quite strong, I have enough points
Wolf Guard Terminator (230pts)
5 men,
Assault Cannon and Chain fist, 3 combi melta and Stormshields, 1 Thurnder Hammer and Stormshield.

Put these Terminators in the Company of the Great Wolf Detachment in a Fun / non-hyper-competitive game, Deep strike them, unload those melta shots and Assault Cannon into what ever enemy units you want them to target. Then survive retailation with 2+/3++ if you can. Next turn, no matter you charge the enemy or they charge at you. Your guys are all throwing 3 attacks each, and one / two of your guys are swinging S8 AP2 (and armorbane).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/04/04 09:53:59


 
   
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Portland

Not to stink on the idea, but I was trying to compare the 4 options available in vanilla lists-- didn't list CSM (and TS); various DW, etc., either... The roles of cents or honor guard would be a closer comparison.

WG terminators have some killer flexibility, but SW already have a lot of interesting shock troops, which would be their question.


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