Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've hated heroic scale for a long time. Despite the greater detail, the outlandish proportions make them soldiers look like cartoony children. Child-like proportions

Do you wish that GW released true scale, proportion-wise, versions of their minis?

Honestly I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I think a lot of people are a fan of how truescale marine conversions look, but in reality it would break the game. If marines were suddenly as large as current scale terminators then there would be even less space on the tabletop. Tanks would be even more out of scale.

I think the goofy cartoon aesthetic has been what drew me into 40k in the first place. Warhammer has never really taken itself seriously, and the heroic scale has always been their thing. Just my take on it anyways.

Nope. If they did, they better bump the stats and make them more akin to marines in the fluff.

One of the biggest failings of the continue power creep and absolute ridiculous weapons-bloat is that Space Marines, an average Space Marine is apparently pointless in a game now.

That alone says that your rules are broken and stupid. Why make a bigger cooler model if it'll still be wiped off the table by the bucketful because there's a non-stop weapons race which has mode most models walking targets? Seems pointless.

 Don Savik wrote:
...but in reality it would break the game. If marines were suddenly as large as current scale terminators then there would be even less space on the tabletop.

I don't think it's miniature scale that results in less space... or what breaks the game.

Heroic scale isn't entirely the problem, IMO. It's a lot of other aesthetic decisions piled on top of that, that's sending GW faster and faster towards the Masters of the Universe action figure look.
And you know GW fans are taking it seriously, with their wallets...

Make marines rules to match their fluff, huh? So a squad of 5 marines can take on 1500 points worth of orks by themselves? That sounds fun for everyone involved who is the space marine player. Yea, an average space marine is useless, but so is an average anything. Troops are filler units, what else is new.

And can you seriously tell me with a straight face we've gotten more cartoony and action figure-y than 40k's humble beginnings? Look at any 3rd edition model or earlier and rethink that. Deathwatch and Rubrics, 2 of the most current space marine models to date, are more in-scale than other marines, to the point where they look weird next to regular marines. If you don't think GW is trying to make their models look correctly scaled then you're just nostalgia blind.

Taking it seriously....WITH THEIR WALLETS *dramatic music* Like how insanely fast the triumvirates are selling? Or how much magnus sold? I don't think the fanbase is the hivemind you think it is. What current miniature release are you talking about here exactly?

 Don Savik wrote:
And can you seriously tell me with a straight face we've gotten more cartoony and action figure-y than 40k's humble beginnings?

I thought that was what you liked. But here:

Taking it seriously....WITH THEIR WALLETS *dramatic music* Like how insanely fast the triumvirates are selling? Or how much magnus sold? I don't think the fanbase is the hivemind you think it is. What current miniature release are you talking about here exactly?

You're focusing on trivial details as if this matter was a 40K rulebook. I'm talking about the wider picture. I'm talking about whatever turns up in the 40K and AoS announcement topics, up in news and rumours. No matter how ridiculous a new release looks, for every one who doesn't like it, there's five who'll pick up the chorus of "ohh me wallet! I didn't need to eat this month anyway. I already bought £200 of X but I guess I can spend another couple of hundred on these Y". I see people expressing disappointment that a certain release is delayed, but that's okay because they can use the budgeted money on some other GW product - doesn't seem to matter which GW product. I see people drooling over the special rules of a new model as much as the model itself, which makes it seem like they're as interested in buying a win as in buying a mini. I see constant assurances that the slight upward twitch in fantasy sales means AoS is selling like hot cakes. I see people making Alan Merrett's words gospel. I see people taking the purchase of GW minis fairly seriously, or at least going about it with a serious determination.

I've also noticed that people who say GW minis are obviously not to be taken seriously, take them a bit more seriously when you point out that they can't be.

 Elbows wrote:
Nope. If they did, they better bump the stats and make them more akin to marines in the fluff.

One of the biggest failings of the continue power creep and absolute ridiculous weapons-bloat is that Space Marines, an average Space Marine is apparently pointless in a game now.

That alone says that your rules are broken and stupid. Why make a bigger cooler model if it'll still be wiped off the table by the bucketful because there's a non-stop weapons race which has mode most models walking targets? Seems pointless.

well they've got to sell models lol. I also mean proportion-wise.

I mean, don't you guys find heroic scale proportions really kiddy and ugly?

Don't forget they also have to take into account the amount of punishment, physically, a tabletop miniature endures.
Think about it, they get picked up, dropped, knocked over and around, crushed into carry cases etc.

If you made everything realistic scaled then a 28mm soldier's gun barrel would be about a hair's breadth wide. Wrists would snap in a stiff breeze, sword blades would be made of cling film etc.
Part of the aesthetic is also a design choice made so that they can survived being moulded, painted and used in gaming.

PossumCraft wrote:
Don't forget they also have to take into account the amount of punishment, physically, a tabletop miniature endures.
Think about it, they get picked up, dropped, knocked over and around, crushed into carry cases etc.

If you made everything realistic scaled then a 28mm soldier's gun barrel would be about a hair's breadth wide. Wrists would snap in a stiff breeze, sword blades would be made of cling film etc.
Part of the aesthetic is also a design choice made so that they can survived being moulded, painted and used in gaming.

Army men have more realistic gun proportions and they do just fine. What are your thoughts on bodily proportions though?

The price difference between wh40k and army men is like night and day too


I wish GW made models cheaper but encouraged people to buy more models so we could build gargantuan armies. probably not their business model though

I like both. Realistic proportions and the cartoony.
For example with historical miniatures for example ww2 i would want them completely realistic.
But with fantasy figures i like to have big swords and stuff, more exaggerated proportions.
For sci-fi like 40k i want something in between similar to infinity for example.
But i must say generally the cartoony look works best on 28mm figures. Or else i feel its so hard to paint and see the fine details. For example the face.

But about your question, yes i would want them to release more proportioned figures. But in 54mm scale like the inquisitor figures

But in the end i like it all, superhero proportions, GW, Realistic, Warcraft Proportions etc.

 Don Savik wrote:

And can you seriously tell me with a straight face we've gotten more cartoony and action figure-y than 40k's humble beginnings? Look at any 3rd edition model or earlier and rethink that. Deathwatch and Rubrics, 2 of the most current space marine models to date, are more in-scale than other marines, to the point where they look weird next to regular marines. If you don't think GW is trying to make their models look correctly scaled then you're just nostalgia blind.

I didn't compare past and present


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
I like both. Realistic proportions and the cartoony.
For example with historical miniatures for example ww2 i would want them completely realistic.
But with fantasy figures i like to have big swords and stuff, more exaggerated proportions.
For sci-fi like 40k i want something in between similar to infinity for example.
But i must say generally the cartoony look works best on 28mm figures. Or else i feel its so hard to paint and see the fine details. For example the face.

But about your question, yes i would want them to release more proportioned figures. But in 54mm scale like the inquisitor figures

But in the end i like it all, superhero proportions, GW, Realistic, Warcraft Proportions etc.

but the warriors of the Imperium are supposed to be tough men, don't you hate the big heads, stumpy bodies, child-like bodies?

I can see your point But honestly, i think having these proportions does good for GW, many of us started as kids after all.

By the way do you have any example of a sci-fi 28mm mini of proportions you like?

Heroic Scale doesn't bother me as much as scale creep. For example, why does GW insist on rebasing T3 1W models on 32mm bases?
32's look great for Marine, but 75% of the Deamon Infantry models should stay on 25mm. And don't get me started on Seekers, who are as large as a Space marine bike, yet only T3, 1W....ridiculous.

This is why I use the new Blue Horrors as my Pinks. I never liked the size of the plastic Pink Horrors. The new Blues are the same size as the old metal Pinks, so they are a perfect fit.
The plastic Bloodthirster and Lord of Change, while amazing looking models are a bit too big for their stats.

Why does every model that gets updated from metal/finecast into plastic have to have a seemingly mandatory 20% or more size increase?
This is a game of MINIatures, yet we keep getting BIGatures.

SM are fine to me. I would be more tempted to play guard if they were truescale, as I have no inclination to paint them as they are now.

Galef: I agree with you, i dont like the scale creep at all.
My guess is that it has to do with them switching to plastic.
From what i noticed plastic usually cant hold as much details as metal/resin at the smaller scale.
Even though their plastics have gotten better it still a long way to go in my opinion.

I've hated on the heroic proportions but i think a lot of the newer kits are better. Its something we all know will never happen... I enjoy GW miniatures for what they are. At least, there is a big difference in the proportions of Catachans vs. SKitarii. Also assuming this is a separate issue from true-scale marines. As for marines i like true scale, but just convert (there are plenty of good ways to convert them these days) them for special kill teams and stuff. I wouldn't bother for a normal game of 40k. as they say, they just die by the bucketloads so why bother. If you want to do something well painted just convert a one-off.

Also, I think the argument that heroic scale is sturdier design wise is starting to fall flat. GW is moving to a finer, more precious style... most of their new miniatures have fiddly bits that are just prone to being broken if used roughly (looking at you mechanicus).

Also, every game seems to have their own special proportions. GW is slightly fatter/squatter, Infinity is thinner/taller, and malifaux has exaggerated features and abnormally long legs.

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
I can see your point But honestly, i think having these proportions does good for GW, many of us started as kids after all.

By the way do you have any example of a sci-fi 28mm mini of proportions you like?

To me the minis look like little boys wearing armour with grown man faces. Like dwarfs.

I'd prefer grown-man proportions. I want them to appear like how they appear in the artwork

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
I can see your point But honestly, i think having these proportions does good for GW, many of us started as kids after all.

By the way do you have any example of a sci-fi 28mm mini of proportions you like?

To me the minis look like little boys wearing armour with grown man faces. Like dwarfs.

I'd prefer grown-man proportions. I want them to appear like how they appear in the artwork

Show me a example of a sci-fi 28mm miniatures that you like

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
I can see your point But honestly, i think having these proportions does good for GW, many of us started as kids after all.

By the way do you have any example of a sci-fi 28mm mini of proportions you like?

To me the minis look like little boys wearing armour with grown man faces. Like dwarfs.

I'd prefer grown-man proportions. I want them to appear like how they appear in the artwork

Show me a example of a sci-fi 28mm miniatures that you like

Unfortunately I don't have any good examples, but you know what I'm talking about right?

I look at heroic scale as just a practical means of making what amounts to chess pieces less breakable.
If you lean toward liking the look of dwarves rather than elves the look is not a bad thing to see.

Malifaux is a fine example of great models more in scale but you have to show them some care since they are a fair bit more in scale and things like ankles and wrists are terribly small.
It is a skirmish game (Same with Infinity) so a little more care can be given when you do not have some 50+ models to move.


I like both types of looks, 40k is more a thuggish brute force kind of game and Infinity and Malifaux I imagine as more a speed / dexterity type of game so the looks fit by my viewpoint.

 Talizvar wrote:
I look at heroic scale as just a practical means of making what amounts to chess pieces less breakable.
If you lean toward liking the look of dwarves rather than elves the look is not a bad thing to see.

but the characters are humans, not dwarves

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 DanceOfSlaanesh wrote:
I can see your point But honestly, i think having these proportions does good for GW, many of us started as kids after all.

By the way do you have any example of a sci-fi 28mm mini of proportions you like?

To me the minis look like little boys wearing armour with grown man faces. Like dwarfs.

I'd prefer grown-man proportions. I want them to appear like how they appear in the artwork

Show me a example of a sci-fi 28mm miniatures that you like

Unfortunately I don't have any good examples, but you know what I'm talking about right?

I know what you mean I guess i have grown up with them so i like all styles. But when you compare with Infinity miniatures it shows what you mean.

 Talizvar wrote:

Malifaux is a fine example of great models more in scale but you have to show them some care since they are a fair bit more in scale and things like ankles and wrists are terribly small.
It is a skirmish game (Same with Infinity) so a little more care can be given when you do not have some 50+ models to move.

Those Malifaux models are also horribly out of scale, but in the other direction. Good luck finding someone who looks like that outside of an anime series.

Anyway, "heroic scale" is a gradient. Older models do tend towards the fists-as-big-as-their-head chunky, but there are plenty of manufacturers out there nowadays who do heroic scale models that are much more reasonably proportioned. You can see with these Anvil and Victoria Miniatures models next to Cadians what I mean.

Frankly I find truescale 28mm models weird and spindly looking. As long as you're dropping down to 1/48 scale and depicting a fantasy universe, I'm fine with some mild proportion shifts to help with model focus and sturdiness.

Nope, heroic scale doesn't bother me. There is plenty of things about the hobby that could do with fixing before I worry about Heroic vs True Scale.

I definitely don't want true-scale anything. I thought you were initially talking about true-scaling Space Marines to the fluff - i.e. making them 1-2' taller than they are now.

Regarding proper physical proportions...no, no thank you. There is a reason that even more slight ranges are still cartoony-ish when compared to normal people --- it's for definition at game surface. More realistic proportions would make painting far more difficult, and the miniatures would be terribly spindly (Malifaux has some cool minis but they're very tall, and incredibly delicate to model/paint).

The models are, after all, game pieces. I've zero interest in realistically scaled fingers/wrists/ankles, etc. and I play Eldar.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

PossumCraft wrote:
Don't forget they also have to take into account the amount of punishment, physically, a tabletop miniature endures.
Think about it, they get picked up, dropped, knocked over and around, crushed into carry cases etc.

If you made everything realistic scaled then a 28mm soldier's gun barrel would be about a hair's breadth wide. Wrists would snap in a stiff breeze, sword blades would be made of cling film etc.
Part of the aesthetic is also a design choice made so that they can survived being moulded, painted and used in gaming.

Army men have more realistic gun proportions and they do just fine. What are your thoughts on bodily proportions though?

The price difference between wh40k and army men is like night and day too


I wish GW made models cheaper but encouraged people to buy more models so we could build gargantuan armies. probably not their business model though

By 'Army Men' do you mean the plastic green soldiers you buy for like 20 for £1?
Those are a much larger scale and have really poor detail.

Look at an actual 1:35 scale exactly accurate model soldier; the gun barrel on a rifle is about 0.5mm thick. Now imagine that in the smaller 1:48 which is close to 28mm scale.

Personally I do prefer slightly more realistic modelling than Games Workshop's humans. Hasslefree miniatures do fantastic models in 28mm - 32mm scale, much closer to realistic yet with enough charicature to them to make them stronger. Malifaux go to the extreme on realistic proportions are are both very flimsy in places and an absolute nightmare to attach to bases.

Those Prodos Warzone minis seem better proportionate than GW figures.

I tend to like more realistic looking figures. GW is getting better though. Greyfax is a giant but at least her proportions are less squatty. Artemis of DW is a giant too but looks better scaled than his other space marine brethren.

Imho

id love to see them redo their human line

IG being more done in scale with forgeworld.

i think GSC was a step in the right direction and looks pretty good next to new marines.

i dont mind marines going a little Death watchy ether slightly bigger.

 Desubot wrote:
Imho

id love to see them redo their human line

IG being more done in scale with forgeworld.

i think GSC was a step in the right direction and looks pretty good next to new marines.

i dont mind marines going a little Death watchy ether slightly bigger.

Deathwatch marines aren't actually "taller", it's just that their knees aren't bent.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

Those Malifaux models are also horribly out of scale, but in the other direction. Good luck finding someone who looks like that outside of an anime series.

...I actually know someone who looks like those anime figurines. She is hauntingly beautiful, but also kinda creepy at times when she's wearing tight clothes.

Doesn't help that she's obsessed with gore and likes Slaanesh.

Also I believe the old Inquisitor was relatively truescale? I think truescale works for that much better since you had a minimal amount of models to fiddle around with. 40k with it's scale is already having problems with any tanks larger than a land raider and monsters are getting to absurd sizes (remember how tiny the old BT was? I wish they'd go back to that scale, even if it's goofy).