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This is a bit of a wierd question, so if I put it in the wrong place, please let me know or move it to a better place.

Anyway, I have quite the collection of Craftworlders and recently filled out a Harlequin allied force because I always liked them. More recently, I got to looking at Corsairs in Doom of Mymeara and decided I liked them and would start up an allied force of them as well - except since I already collect Craftworlders, I wanted to use Dark Eldar models. In the interest of maximizing their use (and because my FLGS hates Forgeworld), I found a DE codex so I could make my Corsair units work with DE rules as well.

This led me to a wierd place. I like the models quite a lot but had never really liked Dark Eldar fluff-wise from the general impression of crazy criminal murder/torture pirates... until I started reading the fluff out of the codex. I cannot exactly put my finger on it, but they seem less overall awful - or maybe I'm just devolving into a sociopath.

Still, this has gotten me into a few arguments with the SO, who finds them absolutely deplorable and pointed out that there is nothing redeemable about them. Looking at it from the conventional sense, I guess I agree, but that is not really why I like them. It's why I like Craftworlders and Harlequins, yes, but I guess DE draw on the same reason I like horror (especially that of the Lovecraftian bent). They are awful, but they have full autonomy, do what they want, are loosely meritocratic, and have all the independence possible. If their murder pirate persona had developed after the need to feed off suffering had arisen, they might have been suitable anti-heroes, but they revel in their debauched lives with no remorse.

TL;DR - My SO and I get in arguments about DE being murder/torture pirates; please help me formulate an argument for why I like them despite them being awful jerks.

Also, I know there are a few other people who play DE on here, so what drew you to them? Do you like their fluff? Why do you play and/or like them?

Because I can pretend to be amoral space pirates.

As you've said, Dark Eldar are one of the few factions that are truly meritocratic. A Vat-born slave Eldar can, and did, rise to the top of the entire city using nothing but his brain. He's wasn't stronger, he didn't have any psykic mutation, he wasn't chosen by any god, he was just cunning.

I like that about my characters. But then again, someone is always rooting for the psychopaths.

Game-wise, when I started I knew I wanted a tactical army, so I was directed to either Eldar or Dark Eldar. And Dark Eldar models are gorgeous, squishing Eldar models in the dirt imho. My painted Dark Eldar army is my favourite i've ever collected, not because it's powerful, far from it, but because it's damn pretty xD

I find them super interesting in terms of being sneaky, adhering to politics and torture, and them having lots of crazy experiments

There is some undeniable draw to pure unapolegetic evil. Your SO is right OP they are murderous torturing pirates and that's exactly why some people like them.

Also helps that the models are gorgeous.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
As you've said, Dark Eldar are one of the few factions that are truly meritocratic. A Vat-born slave Eldar can, and did, rise to the top of the entire city using nothing but his brain. He's wasn't stronger, he didn't have any psykic mutation, he wasn't chosen by any god, he was just cunning.

Honestly, that is a very good point that I had not thought of yet. There are a lot of characters in DE that I am drawn to not because they were some great, ridiculous, born-to-it, better-than-you warrior or something, but because they actually had to work to get what they wanted. The Archon of the Obsidian Rose, all of the Kabal of the Iron Thorn, Vect, Malys - their narratives all have a theme of using intelligence, wit, and manipulation to overcome the obstacles set before them. Nothing gets handed to DE. They have to fight for what they want, and just being strong or agile is not enough. None of the characters have come across as dim-witted oafs so set in their dogma that they cannot see the best way out of a bad situation.

Thank you, that is a very good point and super helpful!

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I like that about my characters. But then again, someone is always rooting for the psychopaths.

Honestly, both my SO and I do this as well. We have both admitted to often liking villains over the "good guys." Heath Ledger's Joker is one of my favorite examples. He's crazy, but in an understandable way. Most good villains are, and a number of them resort to wit and intelligence over the brute strength so many heroes seem to bank on.

The issue we are running into with DE may be that the SO has really latched onto the idea I presented in one of my most recent RPG antagonists - your villain will not be truly compelling until you know why they think they are the good guy. No matter how I swing it, I can never really get DE to fulfill this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I find them super interesting in terms of being sneaky, adhering to politics and torture, and them having lots of crazy experiments

The crazy experiments I quite like as well. They have the ability to pursue every type of knowledge imaginable because they are not held back in any way by morality. It leads them to some really messed up stuff, but if anyone was going to find how to overcome mortality or transcend to a higher level of existence, it would be DE.

That is another good point, thank you


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Earth127 wrote:
There is some undeniable draw to pure unapolegetic evil. Your SO is right OP they are murderous torturing pirates and that's exactly why some people like them.

I get that. I feel that pull. The unapologetic evil is kind of refreshing, but I have no idea why, which does not help in the argument department, lol

Because they're one the best looking armies IMHO and I love their style of playing, which are my number one and number two rules about starting and collecting an army. I also hate playing something that everyone has, dark eldar are not that common and that's another good point for them.

Sex and drugs.

I started playing them because they were in the starter set in 3rd edition.

I kept playing them because they were glass cannons. Maneuverable, fast, and hit very powerfully.

I stopped playing them when they took away the cannon and just make most DE glass, making haemi coven the only playable list.

Why do Dark Eldar think they're the good guys? Are we bad guys for slaughtering cattle? Or culling Badgers? That's what humans are to them, something to slake the need they where born with.

Dropping a lore bomb:
All Craftworld Eldar have soulstones. Exodites are protected by the reservoir of ''calm warp'' within the world spirit. Corsairs have ship spirits, spirit stones. Slaanesh has no hold on a Harlequins soul. A Commarragh-born Eldar however has none of these things, the moment they are born Slaanesh pokes a hole in the metaphorical bucket of that Eldars soul and they begin to leak out of it. They feed on pain because it's the easiest way to extract strong emotion in the quantities the Dark City needs it, as only strong emotions can top up the soul bucket. Dark Eldar are evil because they have to be, they enjoy it because there is no other way and they are good at it because there is a biological advantage to being the most murderous.

In a way the Dark Eldar are more 'mortal' than most humans in the setting. Everything they do is to starve off the inevitable gruesome death and afterlife they are born to and thereby every action, no matter how machiavellian or maniacal, has a twinge of desperation in it. Imho I related to these individuals far more than the zealots, super soldiers and demagogues of the imperium.

Once you learn to accept that there is no such thing as good and evil, and that our moral system is a man made construct that changes from generation to generation. Then most of Warhammer 40K doesn't seem that bad.

I think there's a certain satisfaction about routing for the bad guy. If they win, its a plus and if they loose its a plus because they had it coming. It's almost like removing the anxiety of having a failing hero and just seeing how far you can take the mayhem. There's a reason so many people liked to Joker from the Dark Knight, or why I liked Ramsey Snow/Bolton from Game of Thrones.

Dark Eldar aesthetically are beautiful. Swift, lithe, dark, sharp. Whats not to love? They are psychic space elf vampires. That hits almost all of the teen nerd fetishes in one go.

In Warhammer 40K terms, they are a cautionary tale of what a life of debauchery and hedonism leads to, but haven't learned from their mistakes like their cousins. They are basically drug addicts that need to keep moving to stay alive. They've doomed themselves and they know it, so what's to point of pretending. Might as well double down on whats left and see how far they can take it.

So you can look at them with a certain element of wonder in the sense that they are still at heart, Eldar. Which makes them pretty powerful creatures that once ruled the galaxy. And on the other hand they are pathetic in their need for more pain in order to keep from dying, and know that they can never go back to the empire that once existed.

because you want archons with webway portals to put your wraithguard with Dscythes right where you want them.

Also because you want to play an eldar army that has a chance of winning and still retain your dignity and self respect.

I started DE because no one in my area played them. I continued to collect because they are fantastic looking models. I have fun when I play them because, as many say, DE are 40K on hard mode. A bad decision can cost you a lot of models, but a good decision can be the difference between victory and a demoralizing loss.

That feeling of knowing you won by outmaneuvering your opponent at the right time is one that is hard to beat. They don't have any overpowered units or formations. Winning feels satisfying.

Above, someone mentioned meritocracy. That is exactly how I feel when playing this army. I earn my victories. Free transports and D weapons don't feel satisfying in a win to me.

DE were my first 40k faction. I was drawn to them purely because of the look of their models (best in 40k imo), but I ended up liking their fluff as well.
I like that they are an ancient, cruel evil from another dimension with arcane technology beyond the comprehension of Man. I like the feeling of faded grandeur and nobility that they have.
I have always loved villains that fall into the Wicked Cultured trope. So I guess that is why I love the Dark Eldar as much as I do.

 Red_Ink_Cat wrote:
This is a bit of a wierd question, so if I put it in the wrong place, please let me know or move it to a better place.

Anyway, I have quite the collection of Craftworlders and recently filled out a Harlequin allied force because I always liked them. More recently, I got to looking at Corsairs in Doom of Mymeara and decided I liked them and would start up an allied force of them as well - except since I already collect Craftworlders, I wanted to use Dark Eldar models. In the interest of maximizing their use (and because my FLGS hates Forgeworld), I found a DE codex so I could make my Corsair units work with DE rules as well.

This led me to a wierd place. I like the models quite a lot but had never really liked Dark Eldar fluff-wise from the general impression of crazy criminal murder/torture pirates... until I started reading the fluff out of the codex. I cannot exactly put my finger on it, but they seem less overall awful - or maybe I'm just devolving into a sociopath.

Still, this has gotten me into a few arguments with the SO, who finds them absolutely deplorable and pointed out that there is nothing redeemable about them. Looking at it from the conventional sense, I guess I agree, but that is not really why I like them. It's why I like Craftworlders and Harlequins, yes, but I guess DE draw on the same reason I like horror (especially that of the Lovecraftian bent). They are awful, but they have full autonomy, do what they want, are loosely meritocratic, and have all the independence possible. If their murder pirate persona had developed after the need to feed off suffering had arisen, they might have been suitable anti-heroes, but they revel in their debauched lives with no remorse.

TL;DR - My SO and I get in arguments about DE being murder/torture pirates; please help me formulate an argument for why I like them despite them being awful jerks.

Also, I know there are a few other people who play DE on here, so what drew you to them? Do you like their fluff? Why do you play and/or like them?

My first attraction to Dark Eldar was their models, specifically the vehicles. I thought they looked great (and the newer ones look even better).

When i realized that unlike all the other races, they used speed as a weapon, i couldnt help but see it as damn novel. So i started looking into that aspect of the game and spend many years looking at the models but never taking the plunge.

When the Codex came out that had Vect in it, i read it and just loved it. I loved the speed, the uniqueness of the force, how few people played it and I dove in.

It wasn't the fluff as much as it was the new models. the new models are justridiculously good. I wanted a Dark Circus and they allowed me to make one. I invested in the Haemonculus Coven side of it the most (even though that hadnt come out yet) as it fit my circus theme and now I have one of the most heavily melee oriented Dark Eldar armies you will probably ever find.

Everything about the model range is great (to me)

Because Dark Eldar are the only truly evil for the sake of evil faction in Warhammer. Chaos worshippers do whatever their gods want of them to try and gain more power, the gods are just negative reflections of mortal souls, all the aliens are emotionless or enacting strategic survival or orks, and the humans commit atrocities for absolutely banal and joyless reasons like clerical errors and ignorance.

Dark Eldar have things like mandrakes, literal monsters under your bed, giant pain arenas, and haemonculi laboratories. They seed daemonic invasions in their own city for the lulz. And they don't do it merely to survive slaanesh either, they're so awful they spawned the doom of their race through their own horrible actions and instead of easing back on the nastiness they doubled down on being monsters. They're one of the most technologically advanced races in the game but they use all their knowledge and skill to be the biggest evilest dicks in the universe.

This thread made me learn that:

Dark Eldar are a meritocracy society
Dark Eldar are proud of who they are and unafraid to show it
Dark Eldar have absolutely no bias towards anything and never mince words about it.
Dark Eldar do what they want when they want, being completely self-fulfilled.

Only in 40k where the ideal civilization and people are the most amoral and depraved this side of the warp.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This thread made me learn that:

Dark Eldar are a meritocracy society
Dark Eldar are proud of who they are and unafraid to show it
Dark Eldar have absolutely no bias towards anything and never mince words about it.
Dark Eldar do what they want when they want, being completely self-fulfilled.

Only in 40k where the ideal civilization and people are the most amoral and depraved this side of the warp.

Orks are also considered to have reached their own "ideal" civilisation - as an Eldar in universe puts it - they have no angst or fear of death, no money issues or worry about job security or relationships. They do not care about "who they are" or "why there are here" - they just are what they are and they on the whole, enjoy their short, violence filled lives.

Dark Eldar are great fun because they are stylish bad guys and they don't care what you think - they are quite often how many gamers run their rpg characters - or would if they could.

I play dark eldar for the aesthetic. I like jetbikes and hoverbikes. I love the dr. evil/super villain schemes. I like the monsters of the haemonculus covens. I like the high tech raider, pirate, road warrior type theme they have. It's not the only faction i love (imperial guard being my first 40k love and GSC or skitarii probably being my next after dark eldar) but it has some of my favorite things in it. Also we have a stealth bomber in the void raven and lots of cool 80's and early 90's inspired super villain type aesthetics. A part of our stuff seems like it could fit in battle toads or something (shame that hover bike stage was such a *****).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Dark Eldar are a meritocracy society
Dark Eldar are proud of who they are and unafraid to show it
Dark Eldar have absolutely no bias towards anything and never mince words about it.
Dark Eldar do what they want when they want, being completely self-fulfilled.

Honestly, I think putting it this way just won my argument.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I have always loved villains that fall into the Wicked Cultured trope. So I guess that is why I love the Dark Eldar as much as I do.

This was definately the clincher tho

It really got me into thinking about DE outside of just how GW portrays them too, and a lot of the questions it raises are absolutely fascinating. Why not just use soulstones like everyone else? Because feth fake afterlives, I have better gak to do and I'm functionally immortal as long as I'm a raging dick. Who wouldn't make that trade?

And what to do with my basically immortal existence? Why perfect every single aspect of whatever I find the most interesting - be it fighting, politicking, or making people into half-alive corpse-dolls. Plus, with Haemis around, you can be literally whatever you want as long as you find someone trustworthy enough to not just make you their new taxidermy puppet.

Honestly, getting the SO to look past GW's portrayal and at the myriads of possibilities present in DE society was quite fun.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This thread made me learn that:

Dark Eldar are a meritocracy society
Dark Eldar are proud of who they are and unafraid to show it
Dark Eldar have absolutely no bias towards anything and never mince words about it.
Dark Eldar do what they want when they want, being completely self-fulfilled.

Only in 40k where the ideal civilization and people are the most amoral and depraved this side of the warp.

Orks are also considered to have reached their own "ideal" civilisation - as an Eldar in universe puts it - they have no angst or fear of death, no money issues or worry about job security or relationships. They do not care about "who they are" or "why there are here" - they just are what they are and they on the whole, enjoy their short, violence filled lives.

Dark Eldar are great fun because they are stylish bad guys and they don't care what you think - they are quite often how many gamers run their rpg characters - or would if they could.

So basically in this universe the only people who have achieved utopia are the amoral jackasses who likes torturing people for fun, and the insane football hooligans going on a galaxy-wide murderous pub crawl.

Is it any wonder why humanity is screwed five different ways?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
This thread made me learn that:

Dark Eldar are a meritocracy society
Dark Eldar are proud of who they are and unafraid to show it
Dark Eldar have absolutely no bias towards anything and never mince words about it.
Dark Eldar do what they want when they want, being completely self-fulfilled.

Only in 40k where the ideal civilization and people are the most amoral and depraved this side of the warp.

Orks are also considered to have reached their own "ideal" civilisation - as an Eldar in universe puts it - they have no angst or fear of death, no money issues or worry about job security or relationships. They do not care about "who they are" or "why there are here" - they just are what they are and they on the whole, enjoy their short, violence filled lives.

Dark Eldar are great fun because they are stylish bad guys and they don't care what you think - they are quite often how many gamers run their rpg characters - or would if they could.

So basically in this universe the only people who have achieved utopia are the amoral jackasses who likes torturing people for fun, and the insane football hooligans going on a galaxy-wide murderous pub crawl.

Is it any wonder why humanity is screwed five different ways?

I mean tau sort of have their own little communist utopia... even worlds they take as long as the populace does not raise arms are treated fairly. It is not ideal but if I had to choose an 40k society to live in.... well then sign me up for the greater good

I personally chose DE because I love the torturing pirate feel, dissecting their slaves all while keeping them alive to leech off their life force.

the model range is the best GW offers IMO and their fun and tactical to play.Plus the "skin creations" are some of the most original ideas for space zombies

I don't personally count the Tau as a utopia, just a nice place to live. It's because without the ethereals and the concept of the Greater Good, the Tau will start gaking the pants at the thought of returning to the "terrible times before the ethereal". Not to mention they still have a rigid caste system (so if you were born into the fire caste and want to be a builder....too bad).

By comparison, if a Dark Eldar wants to join the craft world, none of his peers would even bat an eye.

Tau Empire are the only good guys left in the galaxy.

I play Dark Eldar because I subscribe to the BDSM lifestyle so much that I play the worst army in 40k and love it.

I started playing them to go with my Harlequins, and kept playing them because they are such fun glass cannons.

As for their lore, they are unashamedly evil, but unlike all the other evils in the setting, they do everything for themselves.
The Imperium commits horrible acts in the name of the Emprah. Chaos does it because the voices in their head tell them to. Tyranids do it because they're hungry. So on and so on, while the DEldar do it because they can.
Plus, the characters are awesome, and the entire DE line looks amazing.

I find the Dark Eldar are best described in the lovely story The Torturer's Tale (here's a link http://www.thedarkcity.net/t2926-the-torturer-s-tale )

The easy answer is I bought the starter set to play with my son. He got the smurfs. I've enjoyed them ever since because theyre fun to play - and you earn your wins.

There once was a time where, if people asked me which armies I collect and play, the easiest answer was "no Orks and no Dark Eldar".

Then both miniature lines got a revamp eventually.

Now the simple answer is "all..."

(Collecting and playing since Rogue Trader, first edition.)