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Hey everyone! I haven't played 40k in about 5 years but many of my gaming friends are still playing and with the introduction of both kill team and Armageddon/necromunda I want to try to get back into it with just a few models. That being said I really like the Thousand Son army but I never got a chance to play it. I really like the look of the rubric marines but I want to know if that's all I will need or if I should pick up the terminators as well? I saw that the rubric marines are REALLY expensive point-wise so I was wondering if I could use the rubric marines as chaos space marines with a tzeencth mark? Anyways, I'm not totally set into Thousand sons but I'd like some help/advice for starting. Thanks everyone!!!

I can't tell you about killteams and necromundula but in regular 40k 1000 sons only really work in larger 1850+ games when you take a full war cabal.

Scarab termies are pretty good cause of sorc and the insane durability they get with re-rollable saves of 1-s. Rubrics are a tax - you take the minimum amount and don't waste any more points on them. But they're required for war cabal.

Also, Magnus doesn't really synergise with the 1000 sons but instead shines with tzeench daemons.

MoT marines are pretty useless. So, if you want to run small regular games with 1000 sons, you're in a rough spot. Your best bet is a bunch of sorcerors, cultists/tzaangors to fill troop requirements and min scarab units for even more sorcs.

You should check out the https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/709466.page thread. It boils down to: "If you wana have any good results with mono 1000 sons, spam sorcs and go full war cabal".

But if you're not against making unfluffy lists, you can create potent deathstars with spamming sorceror formations from this book coupled with allies like alpha legion infiltrating cultists. You make a magic blob of death with invisibility, soul swap and a ton of witchfires. It works perfectly well...until you meet sisters of silence that counter your whole sorc-heavy army for 1/10 the point cost anywayz. Cause balance.

Magnus works well with thousand sons really well in fact (my group calls him broken)

The main problem is they don't work at all in low point games min is 1500 and then you must play perfect to even have a chance

Magnus needs a lot of warp charges and 1000 sons are not really that good for warp charge generation point-for-point. However, tzeench daemons are.

My advice would be to wait until 8th, but until then, IMHO, the Sons are unplayably bad outside of a full cabal unless you play in the most casual of metas where Tau fliers are seen as OP.

While you could use rubricae as Tz marked marines, Tz marked marines are total trash as well (but not as bad as actual rubricae) since not only does a 6++ not help you unless something has AP3 and ignores cover, but even then, it's not going to do anything beyond making you feel better that you actually get to roll dice before just flat out removing your dudes because a 6++ is meaningless.

The Sons are in a bad place and have been for years (decades even), so I certainly wouldn't advise having them as your only or primary army unless a) you really, really love them and b ) you don't mid losing almost every game, unless you run a full cabal, in which case, I hope you can play keeping track of 10 psychers easily.

Hm well that's a bit disappointing haha. I suppose I'll just enjoy the models for now and get some games in but expect to have a hard time. Thanks for the tips guys!

Tzeench marines seem to be quite good in Shadow Wars Armageddon with their -3 rending bolters and 5++.

 koooaei wrote:
Magnus needs a lot of warp charges and 1000 sons are not really that good for warp charge generation point-for-point. However, tzeench daemons are.

Nothing generates warp charge points like a Daemons army, but Magnus does great in a Thousand Sons army, I've used him in 5 games now, won every one of them. In fact I've stopped using him in games unless I know my opponent and the army they are playing can handle it. A War Cabal with Magnus can easily put out 10 charges a turn with plenty of points to spare, in I think the smallest number of charges I've started with was 17 a turn, and that was before I started summoning Daemons with Daemon Princes.

To the OP, Thousand Sons are expensive point wise, but kill just about any troop out there. The only problem is they can have a hard time dealing with high AV or 2+ saves. So they can be spotty at best. There's another player at my FLGS that also plays Thousand Sons, and he has a hard time winning (not sure if has won a game yet), the biggest difference between mine and his play styles, is that he doesn't summon daemons (because he hasn't gotten them assembled yet apparently). That and he doesn't use/own Magnus and centers around using Ahriman.

As others have said, you're going to struggle below 1500 pts. The Thousand Sons Rubric unit is still awful and a heavy tax to have to pay.

For around 1000pts you'll end up with roughly

2x Sorcerers. One to join your Rubrics and another in Terminator Armor to join your Terminators who will also have an Astral Grimore.

1x Unit of Thousand Sons in a Rhino.

1x Unit of Scarab Occult with a missile launcher and cannon.

1x Predator with Las sponsons.

That's pretty much all you'll end up with.

So that comes out to 12 models, a Rhino, a Predator, and 9 warp charges.

Ravingbantha wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Magnus needs a lot of warp charges and 1000 sons are not really that good for warp charge generation point-for-point. However, tzeench daemons are.

Nothing generates warp charge points like a Daemons army, but Magnus does great in a Thousand Sons army, I've used him in 5 games now, won every one of them. In fact I've stopped using him in games unless I know my opponent and the army they are playing can handle it. A War Cabal with Magnus can easily put out 10 charges a turn with plenty of points to spare, in I think the smallest number of charges I've started with was 17 a turn, and that was before I started summoning Daemons with Daemon Princes.

To the OP, Thousand Sons are expensive point wise, but kill just about any troop out there. The only problem is they can have a hard time dealing with high AV or 2+ saves. So they can be spotty at best. There's another player at my FLGS that also plays Thousand Sons, and he has a hard time winning (not sure if has won a game yet), the biggest difference between mine and his play styles, is that he doesn't summon daemons (because he hasn't gotten them assembled yet apparently). That and he doesn't use/own Magnus and centers around using Ahriman.

You must play in a very different meta or against very odd opponents because Rubricae can't deal with anything for their points except maybe marines who stand around out in the open. They can't deal with hoardes [since they don't have enough dakka for how much they cost and are trash against volume of fire and suck in melee], they can't deal with 2+ armour [ap3 bolters and no volume of fire because they're so expensive], they can't deal with invulnerable saves [that ignore the ap3 bolters you pay through the nose for], they can't deal with cover, either normal, psychic, special rules or jinking [again, negating their ap3], they can't deal with anything over T4 [because they're Str4 and again, lack volume of fire because they're so freakin' expensive] and they also can't deal with anything with an armour value [again, because they're Str4] without trying to punch it to death. They are outperformed against any target you care to name [save MEQ without a cover save at all] by the equivalent points in CSM with plasma guns, which only makes it 10 times worse if you want to mount them in a rhino because then the efficiency of the CSM barely changes while the Rubricae's output drops by a huge amount. Rubricae are trash and that's putting it nicely.

I have to contest some of what is being said, although I do agree Rubric Marines are not particularly good in and of themselves, they make super annoy models to fight.

The first thing to remember is they all have a 4++, meaning bigger guns often won't shoot them unless no other viable targets are available. I often don't bother shooting plasma at them at all, to me its a waste of shooting unless I feel it is too close for comfort.

Secondly, AP3 bolters are great. Albeit they are costly, at 150 for a five-man squad is very expensive. For 25 more points, you can take termies. But sneaking a way to deepstrike these jerks or infiltrate or outflank onto an exposed squad of 3+ armor can be super effective. Note ALWAYS give them a rhino. Or some means to move. Taking them and footslogging them is not the way to play, unless you know you're going to be on the defensive (think Orks and Tyranids).

Thirdly, not so super costly when psyker considered. Chaos Psykers are 60 min. Granting you two psyker powers is handy, and opens up lots of extra utility due to the large diversity of psyker powers. When combined with multiple blessing these guys are super annoying. Plus 5+ deny the witch should not be ignored.

10 man squads are super expensive but super annoying. A 10 man squad of space marines is obnoxious to kill. Give them a 4++ and they are stupidly annoying to remove. Their large squad can take extra weapons which is also annoying to deal with, stacked with soul blaze, you can very neatly start deleting squads.

To give you an example of what I faced last week. My opponent had a 10 man squad with the asscannon. He had given them a 3++ (some psyker thing to increase invul saves) and had the cabal to reroll 1s. Then he cast biomancy and gave the whole damn squad a 4+++ feel no pain. He moved them out into the open to get shots off and didn't even care he was no longer in cover.

I didn't even bother to shoot my gravcannons at them, I choose a different target.

Cons....

As others have stated and are correct, they are super expensive and perform best when their detachment is used to get those sweet sweet rerolls.

However, my friend who plays (strict 1k sons) has some severe weakness which I have been helping to point out to him. To enhance our games.

Low model count. Even when I play Space Marines or AdMech/Skitarri, I always outnumber him. This gives two large benefits to his opponents/me. Sheer numbers and too many targets. Sheer numbers means, despite his 4++ stock and possible psyker boosts or formation boosts, if you throw enough dice at him, be it small arms fire or large, he will start failing saves, and each save lost is a huge penalty towards him.

Lots of targets. MSU or even just a bunch of regular size squads in even small amouts of cover 5+ or 4+ heavily weaken the effectivness of Rubric Marines. Even in ideal circumstances if three squads of 5 man each are out in the open, he can only kill one of those squads and the rest of the shots are wasted.

Careful planning and positioning is very important, if his rubrics do not fire for a single turn due to being out of range, poor positioning or no good targets and thus wasted shots on mooks or ineffective shooting, he has lost a lot more than his opponent.

Point for point not very competitive. Chaos has quite a few good units, though their problem is they are all overcosted. When you look at a 10 Rubric squad which is 300 points base, plus the 25 for ass cannon and 20 for soul blaze you're looking at nearly 350pts squad. That is a huge point sink. You could take 10 termies with some upgrades for just shy of that cost, or whole formations which perform great abilities or synergies. Plague Marines with T5 and FNP are cheaper and just as survivable (for the most part), warptalons are more effective at killing and are much more maneuverable and almost as hardy (depending on the upgrades). And a War Cabal is cheaper and just as good with more options for psykers.

Taking them as a single or two small squads has its uses, but unless you have a specific idea in mind or you want to play fluffy (which good for you, that is the best way to play to have fun!) or through their detachment, you will probably be better off not taking them.

 Drasius wrote:

Ravingbantha wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Magnus needs a lot of warp charges and 1000 sons are not really that good for warp charge generation point-for-point. However, tzeench daemons are.

Nothing generates warp charge points like a Daemons army, but Magnus does great in a Thousand Sons army, I've used him in 5 games now, won every one of them. In fact I've stopped using him in games unless I know my opponent and the army they are playing can handle it. A War Cabal with Magnus can easily put out 10 charges a turn with plenty of points to spare, in I think the smallest number of charges I've started with was 17 a turn, and that was before I started summoning Daemons with Daemon Princes.

To the OP, Thousand Sons are expensive point wise, but kill just about any troop out there. The only problem is they can have a hard time dealing with high AV or 2+ saves. So they can be spotty at best. There's another player at my FLGS that also plays Thousand Sons, and he has a hard time winning (not sure if has won a game yet), the biggest difference between mine and his play styles, is that he doesn't summon daemons (because he hasn't gotten them assembled yet apparently). That and he doesn't use/own Magnus and centers around using Ahriman.

You must play in a very different meta or against very odd opponents because Rubricae can't deal with anything for their points except maybe marines who stand around out in the open. They can't deal with hoardes [since they don't have enough dakka for how much they cost and are trash against volume of fire and suck in melee], they can't deal with 2+ armour [ap3 bolters and no volume of fire because they're so expensive], they can't deal with invulnerable saves [that ignore the ap3 bolters you pay through the nose for], they can't deal with cover, either normal, psychic, special rules or jinking [again, negating their ap3], they can't deal with anything over T4 [because they're Str4 and again, lack volume of fire because they're so freakin' expensive] and they also can't deal with anything with an armour value [again, because they're Str4] without trying to punch it to death. They are outperformed against any target you care to name [save MEQ without a cover save at all] by the equivalent points in CSM with plasma guns, which only makes it 10 times worse if you want to mount them in a rhino because then the efficiency of the CSM barely changes while the Rubricae's output drops by a huge amount. Rubricae are trash and that's putting it nicely.

People get hung up on numbers and stats and forget that the most important part of the game isn't what you field, but how you field it. Understanding when to bring your forces in and where to put them makes all the difference.I could use the same army 20 times, and I would play that army very differently every time. 40k is a game of Rock, Paper, Scissors, you can either just close your eyes and hope dumb luck will win the game for you, or you can try and understand your opponent and predict and manipulate your opponent.

Using trash units to fight not trash units without a massive skill imbalance in the generals commanding them means that you're going to get stomped if your opponent has even the most basic sense to point small arms fire at them.

Trying to talk down to me and telling me to l2p isn't going to get you very far I'm afraid. All the fancy tricks in the world won't help when you get forced to take 40 saves on a 3+ marine unit that dies just as fast for twice the price while having no additional firepower.

A large problem with T-Sons is that they're overcosted; on the battlefield they are quite good, especially if you lucked out and got the bolt on the sorceror, but they will always be outnumbered.

Honestly the entire unit should have cost 20 points a model and the Sorceror being 30-40 points at most. A large portion of the problem lies with the sorceror; as T-Sons absolutely suck at combat, the Sorceror's Force Weapon and Bolt Pistol are essentially useless since you'll never want to be in combat and will rarely be within rapid fire range. This is in contrast to the similar Grey Knights, who have Brotherhood of Psykers instead (so their more useful power doesn't go poof the moment the sergeant is sniped), doesn't have a comically overcosted champion (30 points for a Justicar vs 58 points for a Sorceror), and the champion's weapons are not in conflict with the rest of the unit (unless you choose it to be, but then that's on you).

As it stands, you're paying somewhere in the neighbourhood of 25 extra points for a force weapon that you will hope that you never have to use.

The most success i've had with 1000 sons is using them as a mellee unit. Sorc's still decently choppy and people tend to ignore them cause tsons are a bad unit.

The problem with the Rubric unit are numerous...

For one, they're simply overcosted. No getting around it. On top of that, you need a full unit of them just to take the cannon. If it was 1 for every 5 it would have been better.

The next problem is the Aspiring Sorcerer only having a single wound. If he had more than a single wound it wouldn't be so dangerous using spells on them. Alternatively, allowing them to purchase a familiar could have also compensated some. But they're already overpriced so adding more wargear on top would have been a mistake.

The next major flaw is how the Marks work. Needing to choose a spell off the Tzeentch table greatly diminishes the units power. If they changed this rule or made the Aspiring Sorcerer a level 2 psyker would have solved that problem.

The last major issue is the Mark of Tzeentch in general. It just doesn't stack up against the others (certainly not Nurgle) because an invulnerable save just isn't that great with how much cover people tend to play with and the low model count.

Now all that said, there's no telling what the future holds. We've already gotten a little tease with how flamers will work in 8th so it may turn out that a full unit of Rubrics with flamers could be immensely powerful.

Wait for 8th and pray.