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So I just read a thread, which got me to thinking about how marines actually break a lot of aspects of the game (but naturally they get a free pass because they're marines). I realise of course 8th is going to shake things up.

Let's start with one of the biggest factors they ignore, morale. They more or less ignore morale for its primary functions, yes they take morale checks, but they auto-regroup and can act as normal regardless of squad size (that 1 marine with a meltagun isn't running off the table and is free to pop my tank at bull BS). Meanwhile that 9 man squad of guardsmen (from an 40 man squad) can't regroup unless you roll double 1.
Oh, I won combat but I don't get to sweep your squad off the table but I needed to win so I didn't get swept thereby losing my awesome costly squad that fluffed the dice.

How about ignoring high armour saves?
Let's give marines access to grav weapons on virtually every squad and make them the same cost, more shots and 'better' at wounding than the conventional armour beating plasma weapons, which had the tactical risk of gets hot.

Assault - I charged through cover but I still get to attack you either first or at initiative (my I is pretty high as standard) but your awesome melee unit brushed past some terrain and now they have to wait until everything else kills them first reducing the impact.

Short ranged? No worries take these drop pods and get across the table to wherever you want at the start of your first turn. P.s. See the next point about getting even more of them.

Free points - so you want to bring more actually useful stuff? Don't worry, take this formation and get all your drop pods, rhinos and razorbacks free essentially giving you 200-300 or more extra points (thereby making it a 1500 vs 1800 point army).

Objective secured - you know those free transports I just mentioned? Well let's make them auto hold objectives too. Most armies have to make a choice of objective secured OR a formation. Marines don't seem to be limited to this choice.

Ultimate beat sticks - although so far it's only Guilliman (loyalist) how long will it be before a few more primarchs show up. They're literally insane models capable of taking on entire armies by themselves.

3++ options are available for 10 points on more models than you would expect and more than a number of other armies combined.

Sorry for the kind of rant, but the other thread like this had a massive dig at an army only really any good at one thing so I thought it was important to highlight the issues brought to the table by the army that 'all other armies are measured by'.

Did I miss anything? Want to share in your space marine frustrations, comment below and let me know.

I think that you could make similar complaints about any of the best armies in 7th edition Warhammer, the edition has increased the power level so much that only 'unfair' rules can succeed.

Space Marines at least can interact with all of the main phases of the game and don't typically eliminate their opponent on turn one making them more fun to play against than Tau or Necrons.

Ultimately there is a new edition coming out soon, so any problems with the current rule set are immaterial at this point.

I've always found that morale plays little to no part in my games, partly because my armies include Blood Angels, Emperor's Children Chaos Marines (fearless across the board) and Genestealer Cults (high Ld and plenty of rules to keep them in the fight) and most of my opponents either play marines or tyranids.

So yes, morale has never really played a role, though I am unsure of the new changes where you lose as many extra models as how badly you failed the morale test. We had this back in 5th I think it was, when Fearless models would remain in combat but suffer an additional number of losses, which meant that your awesome CC units were actually subpar, especially if you had some unlucky rolls that turn.

I haven't played AoS so I don't know how this works in that context, but I don't think it's a particularly good mechanic. But then again, better to lose maybe three men than a whole squad as a result of sweeping advances.

So at the core, its a complaint about how Marines are amazing at everything.

Some of these claims are legitimate.

On the other hand, some of these are a simple failure to realize that space marines cost 14 ppm.

I hate facing the Optimized Stealth Cadre. I hate facing a stack of Riptides. I hate facing the Tideline Gunfort.

Seriously, it's kind of broken.

I stopped minding the free transports the Space Marines get. It's kind of obnoxious when you first see it, but it's not that good actually.


The problem, and my hate, for the Tau comes not from them being one-dimensional, it comes from them having units and formations explicitly designed to hard counter my entire army. Seriously, it hits all vehicles on rear armor, ignores cover, and has a 2+ cover save, T5, and 5 wounds or whatever, and comes in a group of 3 that naturally have Split Fire. And the Tideline Rig comes in a group of 3 TL railcannons that are entirely indestructible.

 Kroem wrote:
I think that you could make similar complaints about any of the best armies in 7th edition Warhammer, the edition has increased the power level so much that only 'unfair' rules can succeed.

This. You can especially make one for Tzeentch Daemons, Eldar, etc.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I hate facing the Optimized Stealth Cadre. I hate facing a stack of Riptides. I hate facing the Tideline Gunfort.

Seriously, it's kind of broken.

I stopped minding the free transports the Space Marines get. It's kind of obnoxious when you first see it, but it's not that good actually.


The problem, and my hate, for the Tau comes not from them being one-dimensional, it comes from them having units and formations explicitly designed to hard counter my entire army. Seriously, it hits all vehicles on rear armor, ignores cover, and has a 2+ cover save, T5, and 5 wounds or whatever, and comes in a group of 3 that naturally have Split Fire. And the Tideline Rig comes in a group of 3 TL railcannons that are entirely indestructible.

Wow Tau must be really hated. How did this become a Tau hate thread in like 4 posts?
Interesting the polarity of this thread to the similar one about Tau.

In that thread it's essentially a slag match about how everyone hates Tau. In this thread, despite the sheer number of obnoxious things marines bring to the table (some of which are 'game breaking') it's kind of like, "no-one cares".

On a separate note I thought you could target gun emplacements.

Vehicles and morale have always been gak in 40K. For morale, GW never fully developed it into it's own thing. I hate to use the term "Design Space", but in this case, it's very apt. Morale has a HUGE open space for development, and could be so much more. It could have been it's own phase. It's affect on the game is far too binary. If you pass, nothing happens. Fail, and you fall back off the board or get wiped out in the assault phase. It's all or nothing. Whole armies simply ignore the phase. Other armies are broken by it.

GW could have done so much more. How about taking a morale check when a nearby unit wipes out an enemy unit, and if you pass, you get +1 BS or WS or something for the rest of the turn? How about bonuses for passing morale checks? How about negative mods instead of running off the table for failure? There is just so much more GW could have done with this phase. Anyways, that's my rant on morale in 40K.

As for breaking the rules... any/all armies can bend or even break all the rules you mention. It's a little hard to match ATSKNF, but their are whole armies that are fearless.

Ignoring high armor saves? That's just a function of weapon selection, and any army can bring low AP weapons.

Space Marines are some of the worst models when it comes to assault. The only things they have going for them is the ubiquitous frag grenade and ATSKNF.

Short Ranged? Define short ranged. The table is only 48"x60", most weapons are 12", you move 6", can run 6" or charge 2d6"- you can get to just about any part of the table in 4-5 turns. The fault isn't Drop Pods, it's Deep Strike in general.

Free Points- OK, you got me here. Then again, it's not the fault of the army that some Gak Game Developer decided to give Space Marines the best formation in the game. If yo took formations completely out of the game, it would solve many, many of the problems we see in 7th ed 40K. It's not the fault of Space Marines, but Formations.

Objective Secured- Again, this is not a standard feature of Space Marines, but of Formations. If more armies had formations as good as the Space Marines, this wouldn't be such an issue. Formations ruined 40K.

Ultimate Beat Sticks? You mean Wraithknights? Riptides? Saint Celestine? Swarmlord? Greater Deamons of Khorne? Up until Roboute showed up, Space Marines pretty much had nothing in this class of model.

Cheap 3++ comes with it's own issues, like gak weapons or formations, and after you load out that unit, it comes closer to 25+ points per model.

TLDR; It's not Space Marines, it's a combination of several rules. Gak vehicle rules, Monstrous Creatures, binary Morale, and Formations are what ruined 7th edition, not Space Marines.

Librarius conclave:
Space Marines have access to the most ridiculously powerful Psychic lores in the game (AOD powers), plus all the basic rulebook ones.
And can cast them on a 2+ bypassing the need that other psychic heavy armies have of "battery psykers"
And they can hide each member in a different unit meaning you have to get through multiple units to shut them down

Lets compare that to one of the most complained about psyker formations:
Seer Council:
Only casts on a 3+.
Has access to less powers.
Is one unit so can be dealt with all at once.

 Traditio wrote:
On the other hand, some of these are a simple failure to realize that space marines cost 14 ppm.

Dire Avengers are 13 PPM...
Strength 3
Toughness 3
4+ Save

In return they only get +1 Initiative?

I won't compare weapons since each has distinct advantages.

Dire avengers have battle focus and a better gun.

 Talamare wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
On the other hand, some of these are a simple failure to realize that space marines cost 14 ppm.

Dire Avengers are 13 PPM...
Strength 3
Toughness 3
4+ Save

In return they only get +1 Initiative?

I won't compare weapons since each has distinct advantages.

Where's the mass lists running Tac Marines? People only run them for: 1) getting the Gladius, 2) min squads using a Grav gun and Combi-Grav or 3) Miin Troops squads and then all bikes. Don't act like Tactical Marines are some great unit.

 Boniface wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I hate facing the Optimized Stealth Cadre. I hate facing a stack of Riptides. I hate facing the Tideline Gunfort.

Seriously, it's kind of broken.

I stopped minding the free transports the Space Marines get. It's kind of obnoxious when you first see it, but it's not that good actually.


The problem, and my hate, for the Tau comes not from them being one-dimensional, it comes from them having units and formations explicitly designed to hard counter my entire army. Seriously, it hits all vehicles on rear armor, ignores cover, and has a 2+ cover save, T5, and 5 wounds or whatever, and comes in a group of 3 that naturally have Split Fire. And the Tideline Rig comes in a group of 3 TL railcannons that are entirely indestructible.

Wow Tau must be really hated. How did this become a Tau hate thread in like 4 posts?
Interesting the polarity of this thread to the similar one about Tau.

In that thread it's essentially a slag match about how everyone hates Tau. In this thread, despite the sheer number of obnoxious things marines bring to the table (some of which are 'game breaking') it's kind of like, "no-one cares".

On a separate note I thought you could target gun emplacements.

According to Planetary Onslaught, the Tideline Rig is not in fact a gun emplacement with wounds, it is a piece of battlefield debris and cannot be removed or destroyed!

Also, you made the threat because we're expressing our dislike for how overpowered Tau are in another thread, so you can say "Marines are OP too!"

You can tell me "Guard Gunline is OP!" or "Sisters are OP!" too, because the Exorcist can obliterate your big expensive Riptides in two salvoes, or because Wyverns ignore your Tideline Wall, and I'm going to laugh at you, because I'm not the one who brought 3 Tideline Rigs, 2 Stormsurges, a full-strength Optimized Stealth Cadre, and 3 Riptides to a "friendly game".

More importantly, the Space Marines do not possess a group of formations designed explicitly to invalidate my entire army. Not just the list I'm using, THE ENTIRE ARMY. Whether I'm playing blobguard, gunlineguard, mechvets, or ABG you just have to bring the Optimized Stealth Cadre and Tideline Network and I might as well go crawl back into my trench and ask the Commissar for the Emperor's Mercy.

Okay, I do have a weapon immune to and that hard counters the OSC: the Stormsword. But that's a 500+ point Lord of War that means I can't have a Shadowsword or Stormlord, and you'll still obliterate it on turn 1 with your pair of Stormsurges and the Tideline Rigs.


Am I salty? Yes.


Okay /rant. I should have made that in the Tau threat, but Tau complaining that other people were calling the Tau OP, when they are no matter how you look at it, kind of irked me.


I don't find any of the mentioned aspects of vanilla marines game breaking or un-fun to play against. I can take on the Razorback list just fine, because the formation tax is hideous and largely ignoreable and easily dealt with. I haven't had a problem with Grav weapons either, as Sisters or as Guard.

 Boniface wrote:

Wow Tau must be really hated. How did this become a Tau hate thread in like 4 posts?

Instant karma.

Base marines of any kind are shockingly ineffective in 7th ed. They have fantastic gimmicks that have almost nothing to do with being marines.

This thread is hilarious...
You do realize that in order for any marine player to get those free transports you despise (ignoring how easy a rhino is to remove... drop pods less so) a marine player is required to take a minimum of 700 points of, as far as formations are concerned, sub par power armour marines? BEFORE UPGRADES!

If you think space marines formations are OP I would posit that you need to widen your net when looking at the range of people and armies you play against.

Come back to the thread and tell us if you still hate that double demi co gladius after having played against jetbike spam and/or wraithguard with D sythe spam and/or double riptide wings.
As you've mentioned short range. Tau (the army that a previous threat complained so hard about that it but hurt you enough to open this one) excel at long range before marines can get in to their mid/short range effective area = tau counter
Tau have widespread access to ewo/intercept to hard counter those drop pods you despair over...
Tau have much better short range firepower ability than marines... say hello to breachers...
Tau have jinking transports (with access to disruption pods) all the easier to deliver those breachers...

If you're really annoyed by being cut up in combat by tactical marines then god help you if you play against KDK or deathguard/nurgle marines that end up fearless and, are harder to kill AND hit harder.

And @Talamare come on... we both know the reason why no-one uses dire avengers.... troop scatbikes anyone?

I'm starting to wonder if it's just a matter of your list building ability being a bit lacking?

You have access to a lot of things that make marine players green with envy. Don't get me wrong I recognize SM's have a lot going for them over other armies but you're flat out ignoring how capable your chosen faction is. I don't disagree SM's need toning down, I don't use grav (it was invented to give Marines something to compete with other armies broken units... *cough* Eldar *cough*) or Centurions (invented to give that grav an effective platform for reliable utilisation) because they're not fluffy and were dreamt up to fix a problem that shouldn't have been made in the first place.

If you'd have pointed to the Ravenwing 2+ rerollable jinking formation as a demonstration about how Marines are broken I'd have agreed off the bat but your idea that the free transports in a double demi gladius make Marines broken is laughable. But then again Tau have easy access to another hard counter to that in cheap essentially ignores cover markerlight drones to remove cover.

What I would say you missed in that other thread was the point that Tau can dominate a single phase of the game, and force that phase to extend into the opponents movement and assault phase, and what some people feel is that is makes games very dull as Tau only really interact with the game in one way, shooting. I didnt agree with a lot of what was said in that other threat but you have to consider other peoples perspectives. Its like a banker complaining about someone not having to work and getting "free money" on benefits.... don't be blinded by what other people have and remember to look objectively at what you have in comparison.

Tamwulf wrote:
Ultimate Beat Sticks? You mean Wraithknights? Riptides? Saint Celestine? Swarmlord? Greater Deamons of Khorne? Up until Roboute showed up, Space Marines pretty much had nothing in this class of model.

captain/chapter master smashfetcher has been around for a while and can take primarchs. bike plus gorgon's chain or shield etenal, artificer armor and a thunderhammer. he can wreck plenty of lords of war if they do not roll 6's to stomp or on d table

Talamare wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
On the other hand, some of these are a simple failure to realize that space marines cost 14 ppm.

Dire Avengers are 13 PPM...
Strength 3
Toughness 3
4+ Save

In return they only get +1 Initiative?

I won't compare weapons since each has distinct advantages.

battle focus too, though honestly the tactical marine still wins out. the dire avenger has to run 6 to match the range of a bolter if 24" from the target , and while it has 2 shots at the 18 (sort of but not quite matched by rapid fire in 12 the pseudo rending certainly counts for something. but advantage is still tac marines. in either case neither model is really as competitive as other options. you don't see elder players taking tournaments with 6 squads of kitted dire avengers nor outside of gladius do you see tons of tac marines. troops are a tax because they are middle of the road not horrible but not great units.

If anyone wants to hate on Space marines, start with the Grav Centurions, bikes, and Librarius Conclate. That's about as cheesy as Wraithknights, Riptides, etc.

 jreilly89 wrote:
If anyone wants to hate on Space marines, start with the Grav Centurions, bikes, and Librarius Conclate. That's about as cheesy as Wraithknights, Riptides, etc.

Thats the problem isn't it? The most iconic units in every codex are just thrash, and many of them have that gimminick ultra-OP combo with 2-3 units.

Tactical marines? Thrash.
Land raiders and Terminators? To the binn!
Fire warriors? Meh.
Piranhas and Hammerhead tanks? Direct to ebay.
Aspect Warriors? W-wait... Eldar can walk with their legs?!
Etc, etc...


When people call "Space Marines OP omg!" or "Tau OP omg!" they are ignoring the fact that normally, 80% of those codex are useless. Yeah, of course, they are better that Ork and Tyranid equivalents, but thats the other extreme. The fact remains that you can't pick the mayority of the units in the codex of Space Marines, Tau or Eldar, without feeling you are just stupid by not picking the most stronger option.

I want to field the most iconic units in my factions and have a nice game. I don't want to spam some gimminick new unit that has been brought in the last codex and has absurdly OP rules to sell like Stormsurge, Riptide, Centurions, etc...

But I have to say it. The Space Marine players here negating the OP combos of Space Marines, one of the top-3 armies alongside Eldar and Chaos Daemon are just as funny as some Tau players in the other thread saying that Riptides and Stormsurge are fine Those good double standards.

 Galas wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
If anyone wants to hate on Space marines, start with the Grav Centurions, bikes, and Librarius Conclate. That's about as cheesy as Wraithknights, Riptides, etc.

Thats the problem isn't it? The most iconic units in every codex are just thrash, and many of them have that gimminick ultra-OP combo with 2-3 units.

Tactical marines? Thrash.
Land raiders and Terminators? To the binn!
Fire warriors? Meh.
Piranhas and Hammerhead tanks? Direct to ebay.
Aspect Warriors? W-wait... Eldar can walk with their legs?!
Etc, etc...


When people call "Space Marines OP omg!" or "Tau OP omg!" they are ignoring the fact that normally, 80% of those codex are useless. Yeah, of course, they are better that Ork and Tyranid equivalents, but thats the other extreme. The fact remains that you can't pick the mayority of the units in the codex of Space Marines, Tau or Eldar, without feeling you are just stupid by not picking the most stronger option.

I want to field the most iconic units in my factions and have a nice game. I don't want to spam some gimminick new unit that has been brought in the last codex and has absurdly OP rules to sell like Stormsurge, Riptide, Centurions, etc...

But I have to say it. The Space Marine players here negating the OP combos of Space Marines, one of the top-3 armies alongside Eldar and Chaos Daemon are just as funny as some Tau players in the other thread saying that Riptides and Stormsurge are fine Those good double standards.

Agreed. Hell, Dreadnoughts are just garbage, but this new edition will hopefully fix them.

Anyone else have the same thought regarding the title of the thread? Honestly, I'm trying to think of a Faction which isn't designed to be breaking at least a few rules here and there.

Every army has their special stuff. Orders, synapse, Reanimate... I've always felt that atsknf and chapter tactics are pretty mediocre compared to some of the other army abilities, especially when considering the high cost and low damage output of the bland 1 wound marines.

Grav and the formations are like the marines' wraithknight; Obviously broken and only saw print because the previous design direction was, to be blunt, stupid. If you play a marine CAD with no grav, it feels like they're trying to fight while being multiple editions out of date.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Every army has their special stuff. Orders, synapse, Reanimate... I've always felt that atsknf and chapter tactics are pretty mediocre compared to some of the other army abilities, especially when considering the high cost and low damage output of the bland 1 wound marines.

Grav and the formations are like the marines' wraithknight; Obviously broken and only saw print because the previous design direction was, to be blunt, stupid. If you play a marine CAD with no grav, it feels like they're trying to fight while being multiple editions out of date.

Basically. And grav is largely good because of the number of dice it throws, in and of itself it's not that great. I guess my point is, grav wasn't designed well. But, grav is a consequence of monstrous creatures and all the 2+/5++/5+++ T6+ nonsense you see out there. In 7th edition grav is absolutely needed to hold your head above water. Without it, gg.

 Galas wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
If anyone wants to hate on Space marines, start with the Grav Centurions, bikes, and Librarius Conclate. That's about as cheesy as Wraithknights, Riptides, etc.

Thats the problem isn't it? The most iconic units in every codex are just thrash, and many of them have that gimminick ultra-OP combo with 2-3 units.

Tactical marines? Thrash.
Land raiders and Terminators? To the binn!
Fire warriors? Meh.
Piranhas and Hammerhead tanks? Direct to ebay.
Aspect Warriors? W-wait... Eldar can walk with their legs?!
Etc, etc...


When people call "Space Marines OP omg!" or "Tau OP omg!" they are ignoring the fact that normally, 80% of those codex are useless. Yeah, of course, they are better that Ork and Tyranid equivalents, but thats the other extreme. The fact remains that you can't pick the mayority of the units in the codex of Space Marines, Tau or Eldar, without feeling you are just stupid by not picking the most stronger option.

I want to field the most iconic units in my factions and have a nice game. I don't want to spam some gimminick new unit that has been brought in the last codex and has absurdly OP rules to sell like Stormsurge, Riptide, Centurions, etc...

But I have to say it. The Space Marine players here negating the OP combos of Space Marines, one of the top-3 armies alongside Eldar and Chaos Daemon are just as funny as some Tau players in the other thread saying that Riptides and Stormsurge are fine Those good double standards.

I did state up above that marines have FANTASTIC gimmicks. But that's what they are, gimmicks. The rank and file marine unit actually kinda sucks. Their tanks mega suck.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
If anyone wants to hate on Space marines, start with the Grav Centurions, bikes, and Librarius Conclate. That's about as cheesy as Wraithknights, Riptides, etc.

Thats the problem isn't it? The most iconic units in every codex are just thrash, and many of them have that gimminick ultra-OP combo with 2-3 units.

Tactical marines? Thrash.
Land raiders and Terminators? To the binn!
Fire warriors? Meh.
Piranhas and Hammerhead tanks? Direct to ebay.
Aspect Warriors? W-wait... Eldar can walk with their legs?!
Etc, etc...


When people call "Space Marines OP omg!" or "Tau OP omg!" they are ignoring the fact that normally, 80% of those codex are useless. Yeah, of course, they are better that Ork and Tyranid equivalents, but thats the other extreme. The fact remains that you can't pick the mayority of the units in the codex of Space Marines, Tau or Eldar, without feeling you are just stupid by not picking the most stronger option.

I want to field the most iconic units in my factions and have a nice game. I don't want to spam some gimminick new unit that has been brought in the last codex and has absurdly OP rules to sell like Stormsurge, Riptide, Centurions, etc...

But I have to say it. The Space Marine players here negating the OP combos of Space Marines, one of the top-3 armies alongside Eldar and Chaos Daemon are just as funny as some Tau players in the other thread saying that Riptides and Stormsurge are fine Those good double standards.

I did state up above that marines have FANTASTIC gimmicks. But that's what they are, gimmicks. The rank and file marine unit actually kinda sucks. Their tanks mega suck.

assault cannon razerbacks in a gladius are pretty amazing for 20 points, and auto cannon preds with heavy bolter sponsons are still pretty awesome, but overall yea tanks have been meh this edition, space marine tanks doubly so.

Yeah, they're obviously awesome if you get them for free!

They pretty much have to bribe and/or force people to take vanilla SM units such as TAC marines and the like. If I have to paint one TAC marine I'll never play this game again

Not directed at any particular respondent, but I wanted to put it in record (for no real reason) that whilst it is fairy hurtful for a Tau player to be repeatedly wailed on about how 'effective' (read as OP) their army is, my post was more about pointing out that any army can be considered OP (I don't really take it too personally).
Space Marines were just an example of an army that probably breaks more rules and has more OP stuff than many others but no-one obsesses over them to the same level.

I also totally forgot the whole combat squad thing wherein you can double your scoring units at deployment if you want to.
No other army can do that.
Or how about pick your flavour of army rules on the fly. Most people will homebrew an army and pick the chapter rules however they want.
I would say personally that Marines are like 2nd or 3rd in overall power level (no disputing Eldar at 1).

An average tau list is far more effective (not OP) than an average marine list. Without their gimmicks, marines become BA, who are trivially shot off the table by firewarriors, regular suits, and even Tau tanks.

This is because a "standard" marine list has absolutely terrible firepower/pt and has to rely upon poor CC abilities to win the day vs Tau. Almost all methods of heavy weapon delivery are an absolute joke in the marine codex. Compare to Tau and weep.

Combat squads and chapter tactics and even ATSKNF typically don't matter in a game of 7th ed. That's why marines are resorting to obj sec spam with battle company and super friends for death stars. Their conventional abilities just don't matter in the face of Xeno guns.