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 Traditio wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:Traditio's pointing out that C:SM has poor internal balance and needs the stupid shenanigans to get anything done, master of ordinance is pointing out that Space Marines in a vacuum are still sitting on a big stack of advantages most infantry don't enjoy.


I'm actually not making that claim at all.

This is what I'm saying:

"Marines get too many special rules," etc. is a stupid thing to say. It's a 14 point model.

Complaining that guardsmen are individually terrible whereas marines are individually much better just doesn't make sense.

You're comparing a 5 point model to a 14 point model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Consider this point:

If tactical marines were in the IG codex, does anybody here honestly think that IG players would take them?

No. They'd still field vets instead.


I may have jumped to conclusions based on the bit of your earlier post where you suggested trying a Marine army without any of the 'crutch' options, I don't think I've been misreading the argument but if I have I apologize.

In any case whether Space Marines get a lot of stuff for their 14pts isn't in contention. They do. The 4s-across-the-board statline alone makes them pretty cool in the grand scheme of infantry. No. The problem here is that gun-size-creep has made all the special rules and good statlines and whatnot irrelevant.

Tactical Marines in normal full-size games of 7e are paying for options that they can't really use. S6+ spam is in vogue so T4 isn't an upgrade on T3, AP2-3 blasts/templates have gone from difficult/unreliable to staples of the game so 3+ armour isn't an upgrade on 5+ armour, getting into melee is usually a death sentence for ranged infantry so the WS/S/I chunk of the statline doesn't help much, Marine units tend to be taken as five models so there aren't usually enough of them left after an attack for ATSKNF to come into play...

But take your Tactical Marine and plonk him down in Kill-Team, using Heralds of Ruin and/or not playing with a**holes so your Kill-Team environment doesn't descend into an S6-spam arms race (War Walkers at 0-2 in Special my a** *mutter* *mutter*), and suddenly with infantry and small arms on the table the humble Space Marine becomes a wrecking ball people who have only seen him in normal games wouldn't believe. (I may be exaggerating for comic effect. Space Marines are a lot better in Kill-Team, that doesn't make them Movie Marines-tier epic destruction.)

The point is that on paper, in a vacuum a Tactical Marine is quite good for his cost. In 40k his advantages are negated by the scale of the game. In Kill-Team his advantages are actually relevant and he becomes good again.

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Space marines get as much hate as they do because they're the most popular powerful army and because they tick the 3 boxes that infuriate people the hardest and that 1) Crazy fluff murdering deathstars 2)Free point Access 3) Not a Chaos army. That's al it is. A combination of ubiquity and having the wrong types of power.

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ERJAK wrote:
Space marines get as much hate as they do because they're the most popular powerful army and because they tick the 3 boxes that infuriate people the hardest and that 1) Crazy fluff murdering deathstars 2)Free point Access 3) Not a Chaos army. That's al it is. A combination of ubiquity and having the wrong types of power.


Space Marines get as much hate as they do because they're the tutorial army that skips over chunks of the rules (morale, for instance) to make them easy to learn and play, which makes them an easy target for generic newbie-hate. Also because they get shoved into our faces from every corner by the writers, who seem intent on making them the 'protagonists' despite the fact that they're inherently unsuited for the role (genetically engineered transhuman religious nutjobs with no life outside shooting things are difficult to identify with, once you've grown beyond twelve and started thinking thoughts more complicated than "chainsawsword cool!"), which annoys people who don't identify with them and yet are told they should.

Space Marine hate has remained a constant as long as I've been playing 40k, and the crazy fluffmurdering deathstars and free points are only as old as this edition. The not-Chaos part has remained fairly constant, though.

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 master of ordinance wrote:
Okay, from the top:

@ Slayer Fan.
I had a Marine opponent whose chief trick was to run a 5 man Libby Conclave and a triple Vindiderp squadron. He would roll util he got Invisibility and then set up with the Vindicators in a solid wall with the Librarians behind them and then cast Invisibility on them ever single turn. So I had a wall of invisible vindicators advancing towards me, with a unit of Librarians hiding behind them and there was nothing I could do, leastwhys until Sisters of Silence where released last year. Also most of my AT consists of Melta guns with only three Rapiers for support.... You make the call.

@ Tradito
But to make one of my 6 point Veterans a Marine I have to pay (and this is pure theory based on prices in the Inquisition codex in some cases):
1.5 points for Carapace (Grenadiers)
8 points to upgrade it to Power Armour (Inquisitor option)
1 point for Krak Grenades (Guard)
1/2 point(s) for a Bolter (Guard codex again)
That is already 17 points, and not counting ATSKNF or Chapter Tactics or any stat line increases.
Otherwise, it is just the level of stupidly good stuff/formations that they have access too that really just makes facing them un-fun.

@ niy-mizzed
And I have utterly destroyed some Marine lists, but still lost some of those games owing to the sheer mobility that the Marines have, allowing them to capture objectives whilst I cannot even leave my deployment zone for fear of assaults and if I do still be unable to make it to the objective fast enough..

Amy barrage can kill 2 wound T4 models when they're 90 points a piece at minimum (since you're at minimum buying the extra mastery level) which means they'll only be invisible for a turn or two, and depending on the number of Melta Guns you have you need to shoot maybe 18 Melta Guns into the unit. Otherwise spam the Psyker power from Divination that gives Rending and then a FRFSRF, or even go for Invisibility yourself. Alternatively, you can always bring in a Culexus and they have to kill it first if you Infiltrate near the Librarians enough.
You can also ally in MT (or use your Elite slots you're probably not using) and attempt to go for the Librarians themselves by deep striking Plasma (any mishaps that are potential are worth it and I know that because I Deep Strike with Chaos Marines and Necrons all the time, and that's before Legions before you say anything), or go for the gold and Deep Strike Melta Guns and a Plasma Pistol into the Rear. If you can keep a Commisar safe, you can even do the formation that lets you keep reusing the dead Tempestus squad.

Honestly this really is a L2P thing on your end. You refusing to adapt even a miniscule amount (which is what it is: a miniscule amount) or listen to the posters here (Which you have been shown doing before when they gave you advice as well) is honestly your own darn fault. I don't WANT to say "Git Gud" because there are legit balance issues in the game currently.
In your specific case, it is a "Git Gud".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/07 01:31:00


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 Traditio wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Consider this point:

If tactical marines were in the IG codex, does anybody here honestly think that IG players would take them?

No. They'd still field vets instead.


I'm on the "Anti SM" side of this argument in general, but I'll switch sides for a post.

Chaos is a good example of a Space Marine vs an Imperial Guard as they can take versions of either.
Granted a Chaos Space Marine lacks ATSKNF and other benefits that Space Marine get
and that Cultists lacks Orders and other benefits that a Guardsman gets...

but they are they closest comparison... and the verdict is in...

Cultist are generally preferred over Marines.


6+ = 6/36 | Reroll 1s = 7/36 | Reroll Misses = 11/36 ||||||| 5+ = 12/36 | Reroll 1s 14/36 | Reroll Misses = 20/36 ||||||| 4+ = 18/36 | Reroll 1s 21/36 | Reroll Misses = 27/36
3+ = 24/36 | Reroll 1s 28/36 | Reroll Misses = 32/36 ||||||| 2+ = 30/36 | Reroll 1s 35/36 ||||||| Highest of 2d6 = 4.47
 
   
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 Talamare wrote:
 Traditio wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Consider this point:

If tactical marines were in the IG codex, does anybody here honestly think that IG players would take them?

No. They'd still field vets instead.


I'm on the "Anti SM" side of this argument in general, but I'll switch sides for a post.

Chaos is a good example of a Space Marine vs an Imperial Guard as they can take versions of either.
Granted a Chaos Space Marine lacks ATSKNF and other benefits that Space Marine get
and that Cultists lacks Orders and other benefits that a Guardsman gets...

but they are they closest comparison... and the verdict is in...

Cultist are generally preferred over Marines.


Cultists are generally just taken as the base "troop tax." They're taken because they're cheap, even though they are terrible and have few upgrade options.

Veterans are actually a good unit.

60 points, BS 4 and you can take THREE special weapons.

That's ridiculous.

The ability of IG players to spam special weapons, heavy weapons and cheap tanks and fliers without even trying is, on the whole, simply ridiculous.

If you take away the "crutch" SM options, IG have an overwhelming advantage.

But hey, MoO, do tell me more about how ATSKNF is an OP rule.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/05/07 02:03:49


 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Space marines get as much hate as they do because they're the most popular powerful army and because they tick the 3 boxes that infuriate people the hardest and that 1) Crazy fluff murdering deathstars 2)Free point Access 3) Not a Chaos army. That's al it is. A combination of ubiquity and having the wrong types of power.


Space Marines get as much hate as they do because they're the tutorial army that skips over chunks of the rules (morale, for instance) to make them easy to learn and play, which makes them an easy target for generic newbie-hate. Also because they get shoved into our faces from every corner by the writers, who seem intent on making them the 'protagonists' despite the fact that they're inherently unsuited for the role (genetically engineered transhuman religious nutjobs with no life outside shooting things are difficult to identify with, once you've grown beyond twelve and started thinking thoughts more complicated than "chainsawsword cool!"), which annoys people who don't identify with them and yet are told they should.

Space Marine hate has remained a constant as long as I've been playing 40k, and the crazy fluffmurdering deathstars and free points are only as old as this edition. The not-Chaos part has remained fairly constant, though.


I think this arguement would have been more effective if you hadn't accused everyone of liking space marines of being 12 especially when other armies would, on the surface appeal to 12 year old far more. I mean chaos is 'kid that calls you a f****t' every 3 seconds on call of duty while spraying bullets as fast as he can,' 'lol boobies and droogs', 'haha boogers', 'and 'I'm almost thirteen now so I'm super clever an' junk'.

To clarify I'm not saying people who play chaos are this I'm just pointing out how easy it is to accuse immaturity in 40k, or really any over the top sci-fi setting.

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 Traditio wrote:


Cultists are generally just taken as the base "troop tax." They're taken because they're cheap, even though they are terrible and have few upgrade options.

Veterans are actually a good unit.

60 points, BS 4 and you can take THREE special weapons.

That's ridiculous.

The ability of IG players to spam special weapons, heavy weapons and cheap tanks and fliers without even trying is, on the whole, simply ridiculous.

If you take away the "crutch" SM options, IG have an overwhelming advantage.

But hey, MoO, do tell me more about how ATSKNF is an OP rule.

60 points for a BS 4 unit that is:
WS 3
S 3
T 3
I 3
LD 8 at best
Has a 5+ save
Is armed with Lasguns, base
Has no option for a long gun on its sergeant, despite this being a fluffy option
Has to pay Marine prices for those oh-so-coveted special weapons despite the fact that anything so much as farting int the general direction of the unit will usually kill it.

In the mean time Marines shrug off small arms and most none AT Heavy/Special weapons fire 2/3 of the time, are '4' across the board, come armed with a decent long gun, can have said long gun on there sergeant, have Chapter Tactics, basically ignore the Morale phase and its subsidiaries thanks to ATSKNF.....

Lets put it this way: To handle a single Tactical squad I need to devote two fully upgraded Veteran sections. That is two 120 point units with all the toys to tackle one bare bones 140 point unit. Or 240 points to take them. And I will take an average of two casualties thanks to Plasma Gun overheats before the Marines are factored in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Traditio wrote:Leeman Russes OP.

That's all I'm saying.

And this ladies and gentlemen, is all you need to know about Tradito.

Traditio wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:Traditio's pointing out that C:SM has poor internal balance and needs the stupid shenanigans to get anything done, master of ordinance is pointing out that Space Marines in a vacuum are still sitting on a big stack of advantages most infantry don't enjoy.


I'm actually not making that claim at all.

This is what I'm saying:

"Marines get too many special rules," etc. is a stupid thing to say. It's a 14 point model.

Complaining that guardsmen are individually terrible whereas marines are individually much better just doesn't make sense.

You're comparing a 5 point model to a 14 point model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Consider this point:

If tactical marines were in the IG codex, does anybody here honestly think that IG players would take them?

No. They'd still field vets instead.

I would take Tacticals in a heartbeat. Basic infantry that can actually survive and have decent firepower (IE, not wounding things on 5's)

AnomanderRake wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:@ Tradito
But to make one of my 6 point Veterans a Marine I have to pay (and this is pure theory based on prices in the Inquisition codex in some cases):
1.5 points for Carapace (Grenadiers)
8 points to upgrade it to Power Armour (Inquisitor option)
1 point for Krak Grenades (Guard)
1/2 point(s) for a Bolter (Guard codex again)
That is already 17 points, and not counting ATSKNF or Chapter Tactics or any stat line increases.
Otherwise, it is just the level of stupidly good stuff/formations that they have access too that really just makes facing them un-fun..


Alternate counter-argument: not all option pricing is created equal. 8pts for power armour on an Inquisitor, for instance, is a 3+ save on three Wounds. Why is it the same price on one Wound?

Consider instead the case of the Imperialis Militia list over in 30k. For the price of Survivors of the Dark Age (a one-time 75pt upgrade on your HQ) all your Grenadier squads are running around with 3+ armour, add in Advanced Weapons and lasrifles and you're looking at 7.5pt models with Ld7 Veteran statlines, power armour, 30" range boltguns, and frag and krak grenades. 30k and 40k pricing may not be created equal (a Tactical Marine is 11.5pts in a full squad in 30k, 12.5 in a minimum squad), and I do grant that the 17pt Guard Veteran and the 7.5pt Militia Grenadier are extreme cases in the pricing of a Guard veteran in power armour with a bolter, but it still seems to me like you've constructed a pretty incomplete picture of the situation.

The problem still seems to be that we've got two sides arguing almost unrelated points here. Traditio's pointing out that C:SM has poor internal balance and needs the stupid shenanigans to get anything done, master of ordinance is pointing out that Space Marines in a vacuum are still sitting on a big stack of advantages most infantry don't enjoy.

Very well put. Indeed, much of the problems in 40K can be traced back to the power bloat.

Switch over to Shadow Wars and Chaos Marines are an incredibly good army, mainly because most of the stupid stuff no longer exists. Barring triple Plasma spam (which I do not want to run because unlike some I actually like fluffy lists) there is no real way fr my Guard to compete.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/07 21:31:48


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 master of ordinance wrote:
 Traditio wrote:


Cultists are generally just taken as the base "troop tax." They're taken because they're cheap, even though they are terrible and have few upgrade options.

Veterans are actually a good unit.

60 points, BS 4 and you can take THREE special weapons.

That's ridiculous.

The ability of IG players to spam special weapons, heavy weapons and cheap tanks and fliers without even trying is, on the whole, simply ridiculous.

If you take away the "crutch" SM options, IG have an overwhelming advantage.

But hey, MoO, do tell me more about how ATSKNF is an OP rule.

60 points for a BS 4 unit that is:
WS 3
S 3
T 3
I 3
LD 8 at best
Has a 5+ save
Is armed with Lasguns, base
Has no option for a long gun on its sergeant, despite this being a fluffy option
Has to pay Marine prices for those oh-so-coveted special weapons despite the fact that anything so much as farting int the general direction of the unit will usually kill it.

In the mean time Marines shrug off small arms and most none AT Heavy/Special weapons fire 2/3 of the time, are '4' across the board, come armed with a decent long gun, can have said long gun on there sergeant, have Chapter Tactics, basically ignore the Morale phase and its subsidiaries thanks to ATSKNF.....

Lets put it this way: To handle a single Tactical squad I need to devote two fully upgraded Veteran sections. That is two 120 point units with all the toys to tackle one bare bones 140 point unit. Or 240 points to take them. And I will take an average of two casualties thanks to Plasma Gun overheats before the Marines are factored in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Traditio wrote:Leeman Russes OP.

That's all I'm saying.

And this ladies and gentlemen, is all you need to know about Tradito.

Traditio wrote:
AnomanderRake wrote:Traditio's pointing out that C:SM has poor internal balance and needs the stupid shenanigans to get anything done, master of ordinance is pointing out that Space Marines in a vacuum are still sitting on a big stack of advantages most infantry don't enjoy.


I'm actually not making that claim at all.

This is what I'm saying:

"Marines get too many special rules," etc. is a stupid thing to say. It's a 14 point model.

Complaining that guardsmen are individually terrible whereas marines are individually much better just doesn't make sense.

You're comparing a 5 point model to a 14 point model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Consider this point:

If tactical marines were in the IG codex, does anybody here honestly think that IG players would take them?

No. They'd still field vets instead.

I would take Tacticals in a heartbeat. Basic infantry that can actually survive and have decent firepower (IE, not wounding things on 5's)

AnomanderRake wrote:
master of ordinance wrote:@ Tradito
But to make one of my 6 point Veterans a Marine I have to pay (and this is pure theory based on prices in the Inquisition codex in some cases):
1.5 points for Carapace (Grenadiers)
8 points to upgrade it to Power Armour (Inquisitor option)
1 point for Krak Grenades (Guard)
1/2 point(s) for a Bolter (Guard codex again)
That is already 17 points, and not counting ATSKNF or Chapter Tactics or any stat line increases.
Otherwise, it is just the level of stupidly good stuff/formations that they have access too that really just makes facing them un-fun..


Alternate counter-argument: not all option pricing is created equal. 8pts for power armour on an Inquisitor, for instance, is a 3+ save on three Wounds. Why is it the same price on one Wound?

Consider instead the case of the Imperialis Militia list over in 30k. For the price of Survivors of the Dark Age (a one-time 75pt upgrade on your HQ) all your Grenadier squads are running around with 3+ armour, add in Advanced Weapons and lasrifles and you're looking at 7.5pt models with Ld7 Veteran statlines, power armour, 30" range boltguns, and frag and krak grenades. 30k and 40k pricing may not be created equal (a Tactical Marine is 11.5pts in a full squad in 30k, 12.5 in a minimum squad), and I do grant that the 17pt Guard Veteran and the 7.5pt Militia Grenadier are extreme cases in the pricing of a Guard veteran in power armour with a bolter, but it still seems to me like you've constructed a pretty incomplete picture of the situation.

The problem still seems to be that we've got two sides arguing almost unrelated points here. Traditio's pointing out that C:SM has poor internal balance and needs the stupid shenanigans to get anything done, master of ordinance is pointing out that Space Marines in a vacuum are still sitting on a big stack of advantages most infantry don't enjoy.

Very well put. Indeed, much of the problems in 40K can be traced back to the power bloat.

Switch over to Shadow Wars and Chaos Marines are an incredibly good army, mainly because most of the stupid stuff no longer exists. Barring triple Plasma spam (which I do not want to run because unlike some I actually like fluffy lists) there is no real way fr my Guard to compete.

LOOOOOL

Who cares about I3 WS3 on a unit that isn't going to see Melee anyway? You think Tactical Marines are any good at it? They all have A1. That's gonna hold anyone in melee back.
Also LD is currently the most useless stat.

All these problems you bring on yourself.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about I3 WS3 on a unit that isn't going to see Melee anyway? You think Tactical Marines are any good at it? They all have A1. That's gonna hold anyone in melee back.
Also LD is currently the most useless stat.

All these problems you bring on yourself.

Tactical Marines are better than many other Troops due to both defenses and offensive capability.

If they keep the same Wargear kit in 8th Edition, they may actually be as effective as my Assault Crusaders in close combat, and better at range.

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 Charistoph wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about I3 WS3 on a unit that isn't going to see Melee anyway? You think Tactical Marines are any good at it? They all have A1. That's gonna hold anyone in melee back.
Also LD is currently the most useless stat.

All these problems you bring on yourself.

Tactical Marines are better than many other Troops due to both defenses and offensive capability.

If they keep the same Wargear kit in 8th Edition, they may actually be as effective as my Assault Crusaders in close combat, and better at range.

Until you do the math and realize that's incorrect.

What offensive capability? They can't specialize for anything! When you equip them they can't charge anything after shooting!

They're called garbage for a reason.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 Charistoph wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about I3 WS3 on a unit that isn't going to see Melee anyway? You think Tactical Marines are any good at it? They all have A1. That's gonna hold anyone in melee back.
Also LD is currently the most useless stat.

All these problems you bring on yourself.

Tactical Marines are better than many other Troops due to both defenses and offensive capability.

If they keep the same Wargear kit in 8th Edition, they may actually be as effective as my Assault Crusaders in close combat, and better at range.


Isn't that more an indictment of assault crusaders than an endorsement of tac marines?

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Tac marines are not the worst unit in the game.
That doesn't mean they aren't still awful. It takes free vehicles and doctrines on top of their chapter tactics, or one of the most broken guns in the game, (or both of those things!) to push any more than the minimum tax amount of them into the table in any kind of competitive setting.

The 7e game highly rewards specialization, and the foot marines are designed with generalization in mind. Instead of being passable at multiple roles, they just end up failing at everything. Their durability relies on t4, which is no better than t3 against all the s6+, and 3+ armor, which routinely gets ignored leaving them with the 5+ cover a gretchin gets. At only 1 wound this makes them exactly as durable as gretchin in cover on the practical tabletop in fact.
Their 1 measly swing in cc makes the otherwise-okay weaponskill and initiative worthless. Strength 4 just isn't worth mentioning.

The bolter hardly outranges anyone, doesn't cut through any meaningful AP value (the guys who can't save are already the types of guys that spend their lives in cover,) has crappy s4, and doesn't put out enough shots to do anything.

The krak grenade was made worse than useless by an FAQ-errata. Now it reads "equipped models can't use the our weapons are useless rule to run away, even though one s6 swing per squad will never do any good ever." The frag is laughable as far as shooting, needing miracle rolls to do anything, while the keep-initiative ability would matter a lot more if, as above, their melee capability was good enough to be a practical choice. It's definitely a wargear piece that other melee units in the game are jealous of, that is wasted on tacticals.

Most good marine players have long since realized that atsknf is double edged. It is good against shooting morale, since the only bad things that happen are going off the table or being pushed out of range with a good weapon. It tends to be terrible in melee. If something is sweeping them, it is not a threat you're going to deal with by tossing more dudes into the fray, it is a threat that needs to be shot. Except you can't. Because Jimius Bobbius the tactical marine insists on staying there, blocking your entire army's shots on your turn, just so he can drop in time for their turn to come around again. Other armies have much more well behaved speed bumps like cultists and guardsmen. When they get run over, they lay down and die or flee like good sacrifices, leaving the enemy unit out in the wind for shooting. It also does nothing against pinning, so every third squad that falls out of a rhino hits the dirt cowering.

To sum up, if you're just playing funsies games, feel free to take tacticals en masse, without grav or formations. The game will be challenging for you at least, regardless of what is across the table.
If you are staring down something more threatening, minimum tacticals, or better yet, scouts, and then spend the rest of your points on units that actually pull weight. Either that or just grab one of the famous formations that gives them so many bonuses that they actually become good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/08 01:42:50


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ERJAK wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
ERJAK wrote:
Space marines get as much hate as they do because they're the most popular powerful army and because they tick the 3 boxes that infuriate people the hardest and that 1) Crazy fluff murdering deathstars 2)Free point Access 3) Not a Chaos army. That's al it is. A combination of ubiquity and having the wrong types of power.


Space Marines get as much hate as they do because they're the tutorial army that skips over chunks of the rules (morale, for instance) to make them easy to learn and play, which makes them an easy target for generic newbie-hate. Also because they get shoved into our faces from every corner by the writers, who seem intent on making them the 'protagonists' despite the fact that they're inherently unsuited for the role (genetically engineered transhuman religious nutjobs with no life outside shooting things are difficult to identify with, once you've grown beyond twelve and started thinking thoughts more complicated than "chainsawsword cool!"), which annoys people who don't identify with them and yet are told they should.

Space Marine hate has remained a constant as long as I've been playing 40k, and the crazy fluffmurdering deathstars and free points are only as old as this edition. The not-Chaos part has remained fairly constant, though.


I think this arguement would have been more effective if you hadn't accused everyone of liking space marines of being 12 especially when other armies would, on the surface appeal to 12 year old far more. I mean chaos is 'kid that calls you a f****t' every 3 seconds on call of duty while spraying bullets as fast as he can,' 'lol boobies and droogs', 'haha boogers', 'and 'I'm almost thirteen now so I'm super clever an' junk'.

To clarify I'm not saying people who play chaos are this I'm just pointing out how easy it is to accuse immaturity in 40k, or really any over the top sci-fi setting.


...Okay, there are a number of logical leaps going on here, but I'll try to clarify.

I describe Space Marines as difficult to identify with, not impossible to identify with. I brought up twelve-year-olds based on the different experiences I've had trying to explain 40k to people who are twelve (who find the whole thing wildly exciting) and people who aren't twelve (who ask many questions and get weirded out quickly), not out of any desire to accuse anyone of being twelve.

I don't wish to speculate on the reasons any individual may find Space Marines engaging or not engaging, I'm simply pointing out that there's a tendency among longtime 40k players to take them for granted and gloss over the weirder/creepier aspects, and that other people have a tendency to find the normal humans in the Guard and the Inquisition more relatable than the chemically-castrated giant cyborg monks.

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 niv-mizzet wrote:
Tac marines are not the worst unit in the game.
That doesn't mean they aren't still awful. It takes free vehicles and doctrines on top of their chapter tactics, or one of the most broken guns in the game, (or both of those things!) to push any more than the minimum tax amount of them into the table in any kind of competitive setting.

The 7e game highly rewards specialization, and the foot marines are designed with generalization in mind. Instead of being passable at multiple roles, they just end up failing at everything. Their durability relies on t4, which is no better than t3 against all the s6+, and 3+ armor, which routinely gets ignored leaving them with the 5+ cover a gretchin gets. At only 1 wound this makes them exactly as durable as gretchin in cover on the practical tabletop in fact.
Their 1 measly swing in cc makes the otherwise-okay weaponskill and initiative worthless. Strength 4 just isn't worth mentioning.

The bolter hardly outranges anyone, doesn't cut through any meaningful AP value (the guys who can't save are already the types of guys that spend their lives in cover,) has crappy s4, and doesn't put out enough shots to do anything.

The krak grenade was made worse than useless by an FAQ-errata. Now it reads "equipped models can't use the our weapons are useless rule to run away, even though one s6 swing per squad will never do any good ever." The frag is laughable as far as shooting, needing miracle rolls to do anything, while the keep-initiative ability would matter a lot more if, as above, their melee capability was good enough to be a practical choice. It's definitely a wargear piece that other melee units in the game are jealous of, that is wasted on tacticals.

Most good marine players have long since realized that atsknf is double edged. It is good against shooting morale, since the only bad things that happen are going off the table or being pushed out of range with a good weapon. It tends to be terrible in melee. If something is sweeping them, it is not a threat you're going to deal with by tossing more dudes into the fray, it is a threat that needs to be shot. Except you can't. Because Jimius Bobbius the tactical marine insists on staying there, blocking your entire army's shots on your turn, just so he can drop in time for their turn to come around again. Other armies have much more well behaved speed bumps like cultists and guardsmen. When they get run over, they lay down and die or flee like good sacrifices, leaving the enemy unit out in the wind for shooting. It also does nothing against pinning, so every third squad that falls out of a rhino hits the dirt cowering.

To sum up, if you're just playing funsies games, feel free to take tacticals en masse, without grav or formations. The game will be challenging for you at least, regardless of what is across the table.
If you are staring down something more threatening, minimum tacticals, or better yet, scouts, and then spend the rest of your points on units that actually pull weight. Either that or just grab one of the famous formations that gives them so many bonuses that they actually become good.


+1 for truth.

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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about I3 WS3 on a unit that isn't going to see Melee anyway? You think Tactical Marines are any good at it? They all have A1. That's gonna hold anyone in melee back.
Also LD is currently the most useless stat.

All these problems you bring on yourself.

Tactical Marines are better than many other Troops due to both defenses and offensive capability.

If they keep the same Wargear kit in 8th Edition, they may actually be as effective as my Assault Crusaders in close combat, and better at range.

Until you do the math and realize that's incorrect.

What offensive capability? They can't specialize for anything! When you equip them they can't charge anything after shooting!

They're called garbage for a reason.

Remember that this is about Assault.

First off, are we talking just standard kit or are we talking after "all model" upgrades?

Basic kit, they are equivalent to any other Marine Troop besides Space Wolves. Chapter Tactics can do some very odd things here to balance most of them out.

Eldar? They have greater Str, which is offset by their lower I, and more than compensated by their better Armour and Toughness against the Infantry. It's almost a wash with the bikes.

Orks? Only numbers will tell. Orks have lower Str, but have access to more Attacks, countered by crap armor and Initative.

Tyranids? Warriors are the only thing that is superior in Assault before upgrades. Otherwise, you're either dealing with IG or Eldar with crap Saves.

Fire Warriors? Necrons enjoy Charging them.

Necrons? Here it starts balancing out a bit. Str and Toughness are a match, Armour can match, but their Initative is still crap.

I will admit being behind on the Ad Mech variances, though, but we're still seeing a preponderance of the options where the Tactical is still pretty good in combat against the equivalent out of most of the other armies.

ERJAK wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who cares about I3 WS3 on a unit that isn't going to see Melee anyway? You think Tactical Marines are any good at it? They all have A1. That's gonna hold anyone in melee back.
Also LD is currently the most useless stat.

All these problems you bring on yourself.

Tactical Marines are better than many other Troops due to both defenses and offensive capability.

If they keep the same Wargear kit in 8th Edition, they may actually be as effective as my Assault Crusaders in close combat, and better at range.

Isn't that more an indictment of assault crusaders than an endorsement of tac marines?

In a way, yes. A lot depends on what changes we will be seeing in the armies to come and the details of many of the rules. Will Tacticals be keeping their Pistols? Will Pistols still provide a bonus Attack in Assault as well as still being able to Shoot before the Assault Phase?

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Wait... so tactical marines are OP now?....


err... no.
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
Tamwulf wrote:
Ultimate Beat Sticks? You mean Wraithknights? Riptides? Saint Celestine? Swarmlord? Greater Deamons of Khorne? Up until Roboute showed up, Space Marines pretty much had nothing in this class of model.



captain/chapter master smashfetcher has been around for a while and can take primarchs. bike plus gorgon's chain or shield etenal, artificer armor and a thunderhammer. he can wreck plenty of lords of war if they do not roll 6's to stomp or on d table

Talamare wrote:
 Traditio wrote:
On the other hand, some of these are a simple failure to realize that space marines cost 14 ppm.


Dire Avengers are 13 PPM...
Strength 3
Toughness 3
4+ Save

In return they only get +1 Initiative?

I won't compare weapons since each has distinct advantages.


battle focus too, though honestly the tactical marine still wins out. the dire avenger has to run 6 to match the range of a bolter if 24" from the target , and while it has 2 shots at the 18 (sort of but not quite matched by rapid fire in 12 the pseudo rending certainly counts for something. but advantage is still tac marines. in either case neither model is really as competitive as other options. you don't see elder players taking tournaments with 6 squads of kitted dire avengers nor outside of gladius do you see tons of tac marines. troops are a tax because they are middle of the road not horrible but not great units.


Um no the Tactical Marine does not win out. Chaos Marines lost mathematically when you consider that you can always stay out of rapid fire range and still get your 2 18" shots off. While true the Chaos Marine didn't get a good update until Legions, consider:
1. Very few Legions affect durability. Death Guard Vanilla Marines will take it all, but nobody else is going to (because you're getting a 6+++ max unless you use emperors Children and pay 35 points to get an Icon that'll be sniped)
2. Nothing offensive is boosted. Range wise at least.
So ignoring morale and potential cover the Chaos Marines lost. Cover is interesting because in certain situations one squad will benefit more than the other.

Now remember that Tactical Marines don't get the second Special Weapon and instead take a Heavy Weapon that's snap firing if they're moving. Very few Chapter Tactics will make any difference here, and the Avenger defensive abilities won't matter because Tactical Marines don't charge anything ever, contrary to popular belief when all those grenades are SO good.

SO yeah Eldar players don't have a reason to take Dire Avengers over Scatterbikes. However, Dire Avenger do better than most troops thanks to a good gun and more importantly not pretending to tackle a role they're not supposed to. They hold objectives and make charges on that objective less savory and stick with being Anti-Infantry, rather than being able to take a single special weapon or two and pretending to be multi-talented.


I am trying to figure out where you think I was talking about chaos space marines when I said tactical marines aren't chaos space marines equivalent literally called chaos space marines. I will agree that the dire avenger's gun is marginally better but remember it is carried by a S3 T3 with a 4+ armor save so a less durable platform carrying said gun. I think both are appropriately costed, the loyalist vanilla marine is just worth 1 more point than a dire avenger hence DA 13 ppm SM 14 ppm

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zerosignal wrote:Wait... so tactical marines are OP now?....


err... no.

I don't think anyone is saying that. They do have some advantages in certain areas that would make them seem OP in a vacuum. The game doesn't operate in a vacuum, though, and when taken all together, they tend to be decent Troops, but nothing truly overwhelming. They are limited in numbers and their firepower can be scattered, dyslexic, or anemic. This and their cost helps relieve them from OP status.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:


...Okay, there are a number of logical leaps going on here, but I'll try to clarify.

I describe Space Marines as difficult to identify with, not impossible to identify with. I brought up twelve-year-olds based on the different experiences I've had trying to explain 40k to people who are twelve (who find the whole thing wildly exciting) and people who aren't twelve (who ask many questions and get weirded out quickly), not out of any desire to accuse anyone of being twelve.

I don't wish to speculate on the reasons any individual may find Space Marines engaging or not engaging, I'm simply pointing out that there's a tendency among longtime 40k players to take them for granted and gloss over the weirder/creepier aspects, and that other people have a tendency to find the normal humans in the Guard and the Inquisition more relatable than the chemically-castrated giant cyborg monks.


I identify with Space Marines because I'm slightly fascistic myself, which is probably a good indication of why you were not originally supposed to relate to them.

 
   
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Glasgow, Scotland

Jbz` wrote:
Librarius conclave:
Space Marines have access to the most ridiculously powerful Psychic lores in the game (AOD powers), plus all the basic rulebook ones.
And can cast them on a 2+ bypassing the need that other psychic heavy armies have of "battery psykers"
And they can hide each member in a different unit meaning you have to get through multiple units to shut them down

Lets compare that to one of the most complained about psyker formations:
Seer Council:
Only casts on a 3+.
Has access to less powers.
Is one unit so can be dealt with all at once.



The Conclave is also constructed of 3-5 HQ Librarians, a 3-600pt force in its own right. It also requires the Librarians to be within 12" to use, so even if you did have them in 5 seperate squads, that's a good 800pts of models (assuming you went with Tacticals or Scouts and not Terminators or Centurians as the fodder) within 12" of each other, ripe for Blasts and Templates to wipe out. A battle cannon or equivilent would have a field day. Plus, only one Librarian can do the casting, so even Invisibility is limited in effectiveness.

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This thread has been a hilarious read. I would love to play games against people who think your average TAC marine is strong and can't easily play around them. That would be so fun. Just foot slogging all over the board in a list that was basically 70 marines, wiping out everything.

All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors. "I HAVE NO ANSWER TO A 3+ SAVE WITH BASICALLY NO DAMAGE OUTPUT," they cry, as I heartlessly roll my horde of d6s, hitting on 3s! wounding on 4s! TAKE YOUR ARMOR SAVE AND TREMBLE.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
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The problem is not that SM are designed to break the rules. The problem is that SM, an army designed to break the rules, constitutes pretty much 50% of the armies available.
   
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Mr. CyberPunk wrote:
The problem is not that SM are designed to break the rules. The problem is that SM, an army designed to break the rules, constitutes pretty much 50% of the armies available.

In one form or another. There are more variants of them than any other army.

But hey, they are the flagship army of 40K.

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Mr. CyberPunk wrote:
The problem is not that SM are designed to break the rules. The problem is that SM, an army designed to break the rules, constitutes pretty much 50% of the armies available.


It's funny how marines comprise most of the playerbase, yet most of the tournament winners aren't marines.

If they really were 50% of the playerbase, if they were equally powerful to other tournament-winning armies, you'd expect them to win roughly 50% of the tournaments. They don't, therefore marines are underpowered.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
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Vigo. Spain.

 Marmatag wrote:
Mr. CyberPunk wrote:
The problem is not that SM are designed to break the rules. The problem is that SM, an army designed to break the rules, constitutes pretty much 50% of the armies available.


It's funny how marines comprise most of the playerbase, yet most of the tournament winners aren't marines.

If they really were 50% of the playerbase, if they were equally powerful to other tournament-winning armies, you'd expect them to win roughly 50% of the tournaments. They don't, therefore marines are underpowered.


Ehmm... I don't want to be hars but that logic don't make any sense. Space Marines are probably more than half the player base, and I'll say that probably more than 80% of the player base has a force of space marines of different sizes, even only one of Starter Sets. And they are one of the Top 3 armies today alongside Eldar and Daemons of Chaos. Space Marines are always at the tops of the tournaments, but normally the winners are Eldar/Daemons.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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 Marmatag wrote:
Mr. CyberPunk wrote:
The problem is not that SM are designed to break the rules. The problem is that SM, an army designed to break the rules, constitutes pretty much 50% of the armies available.

It's funny how marines comprise most of the playerbase, yet most of the tournament winners aren't marines.

If they really were 50% of the playerbase, if they were equally powerful to other tournament-winning armies, you'd expect them to win roughly 50% of the tournaments. They don't, therefore marines are underpowered.

Not necessarily. If the majority of Space Marine players are either mediocre or have have a lousy stable, then they can be a huge proportion of the actual players and still not show a great placing in tournaments.

Having a high number of bad players is no indication of the viability of an army.

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You're a little late to the "whining about other factions party". Read the Horus Heresey novels and you'll understand that astartes are stronger soldiers with relentless morale in combat. It sounds to me like you were recently dominated by a marine army and felt it appropriate to let the dakka community aware.

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 Caveman wrote:
You're a little late to the "whining about other factions party". Read the Horus Heresey novels and you'll understand that astartes are stronger soldiers with relentless morale in combat. It sounds to me like you were recently dominated by a marine army and felt it appropriate to let the dakka community aware.


The fluff doesn't matter for this kind of consideration.
   
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I don't know what's dumber in this thread:

People arguing that Tacs are OP (LOL), or people sincerely arguing that Tacs are better troops than IG Vets (LMFAO).

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