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 Boniface wrote:
In that thread it's essentially a slag match about how everyone hates Tau.

Not really. I've seen actual Tau-bashing threads before (as well as ones that pretend to have a point but are thinly-veiled hate threads) and that one isn't really that bad. It's mostly full of people who don't like their rules which, to be honest, is actually a fair complaint. In fact the OP even rejected the notion that Tau were overpowered at all and insisted more that the gameplay experience was just frustrating for both sides, which is also not usually how those threads start, either.

Other armies have their bs and gimmicks, Marines included, but the worst ones usually get the loudest complaints, like Tau and Eldar. Of course there are still people out there who reject them based purely on subjective means, like their aesthetic or background (or both), but Tau aren't the only army there, either: Tyranids seem to get a lot of that style of hate for some reason, too, despite the fact that they should fit in the universe perfectly.

Anyway, looking forward to 8th edition...hopefully a lot of these issues, with every army, get fixed.

Poly Ranger wrote:
As a Renegade player I love the fact that we never get stick for being OP despite easily being up there with Marines (maybe not eldar though). I mean let's face it - with Ordnance Tyrant we have two of THE most effective rule breaking rules in the game. Let's forget that in The Purge we can also just create dangerous terrain all over the board, Ordnance Tyrant firstly let's you ignore the need for any tax unit and just spam all the units you want in a Purge or CAD and take waaay more heavy than any other lists allow (18 altogether in one Purge). But more secondly and more importantly, Ordnance Tyrant let's you ignore the restriction of shooting into combat with barrage weapons - and Renegades can take advantage of this better than anyone! 55pt Earthshakers and Wyvers, 30pt Quad Mortars, also 55pt 3 man spawn units are T5 so arent doubled out by the Earthshakers, whilst 3pt Renegades with Sigils or Zombie hordes can take casualties en-mass and shrug it off whilst the opponents they are fighting in assault get worn down by the continuous blasts... and there is very little the opponent can do about it. If you take tough allies it gets even better for the Quad, Mortar or Wyvern blasts.
Whilst Unending Horde lets you literally ignore the entire death mechanic 5/6ths of the time! And you get to outflank when they come back so they are right back in the game straight away, so aside from killpoint games there is literally no downside. Simply ignoring the entire death mechanic (You have to admit - THE main mechanic of the game) 83% of the time is far more rule breaking then ATSKNF!

To this day I still have no idea why Renegades don't get as much dislike directed at them as SM, Eldar, Tau and Necrons.

Probably because Renegade isn't REALLY a 40k Faction?

It's Forgeworld, and some people don't even play with FW at all.

Hell, when I go onto the Official 40k Website and check out the Factions - https://warhammer40000.com/setting/explore-the-factions/
Under Chaos I see... Daemons, Space Marines, Thousand Sons, Death Guard. I don't see Chaos Renegades. This website lists Ynnari, Harlequins, Genestealer Cults, Adepta Sororitas, and even Imperial Agents. Tho they don't seem to list Renegades...

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Tamwulf wrote:
Ultimate Beat Sticks? You mean Wraithknights? Riptides? Saint Celestine? Swarmlord? Greater Deamons of Khorne? Up until Roboute showed up, Space Marines pretty much had nothing in this class of model.

captain/chapter master smashfetcher has been around for a while and can take primarchs. bike plus gorgon's chain or shield etenal, artificer armor and a thunderhammer. he can wreck plenty of lords of war if they do not roll 6's to stomp or on d table

Talamare wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
On the other hand, some of these are a simple failure to realize that space marines cost 14 ppm.

Dire Avengers are 13 PPM...
Strength 3
Toughness 3
4+ Save

In return they only get +1 Initiative?

I won't compare weapons since each has distinct advantages.

battle focus too, though honestly the tactical marine still wins out. the dire avenger has to run 6 to match the range of a bolter if 24" from the target , and while it has 2 shots at the 18 (sort of but not quite matched by rapid fire in 12 the pseudo rending certainly counts for something. but advantage is still tac marines. in either case neither model is really as competitive as other options. you don't see elder players taking tournaments with 6 squads of kitted dire avengers nor outside of gladius do you see tons of tac marines. troops are a tax because they are middle of the road not horrible but not great units.

Um no the Tactical Marine does not win out. Chaos Marines lost mathematically when you consider that you can always stay out of rapid fire range and still get your 2 18" shots off. While true the Chaos Marine didn't get a good update until Legions, consider:
1. Very few Legions affect durability. Death Guard Vanilla Marines will take it all, but nobody else is going to (because you're getting a 6+++ max unless you use emperors Children and pay 35 points to get an Icon that'll be sniped)
2. Nothing offensive is boosted. Range wise at least.
So ignoring morale and potential cover the Chaos Marines lost. Cover is interesting because in certain situations one squad will benefit more than the other.

Now remember that Tactical Marines don't get the second Special Weapon and instead take a Heavy Weapon that's snap firing if they're moving. Very few Chapter Tactics will make any difference here, and the Avenger defensive abilities won't matter because Tactical Marines don't charge anything ever, contrary to popular belief when all those grenades are SO good.

SO yeah Eldar players don't have a reason to take Dire Avengers over Scatterbikes. However, Dire Avenger do better than most troops thanks to a good gun and more importantly not pretending to tackle a role they're not supposed to. They hold objectives and make charges on that objective less savory and stick with being Anti-Infantry, rather than being able to take a single special weapon or two and pretending to be multi-talented.

Space Marines get to have their cake and eat it too. For me the prime example of that are drop pods.

Wait for Turn 2 - no, le'ts be special instead.
Scatter? - no, that is for the bad guys.
Scoring? - sure, why not? AV12 is easy to remove if anyone cares.
Point cost? - let's go for 1/3rd of the worse Chaos version - cancel that, make it available free.

Drop pods should be battlefield debries once they crash-landed. Everyone should have the same risk deep-striking. I hope that 8th Edition will make the later so - like AoS more or less has if I understand correctly.

I understand you have to pay points for not broken units to unlock free obsec rides, since tac marines are merely fairly costed, but the advantage of being able to block your opponent with a load of free rhinos and razorbacks, which force your opponent to focus their fire on them or spent turn after turn trying manouver around them, not to mention the afremorentioned drop dops more than makes up for that.

However, the worst by far is someone fielding a Gladius Cheese Force and pretending to be a Fluff-Bunny with a super fair list, oblivious to how broken that is against most armies.

SM - not to mention SW or other special snowflake chapters - can be just as - or with the "but we are the poor good guys stick" even more - annoying as Tau and Eldar. =]

*has high hopes for 8th properly leveling the field across the board*

 Stephanius wrote:
Space Marines get to have their cake and eat it too. For me the prime example of that are drop pods.

Wait for Turn 2 - no, le'ts be special instead.
Scatter? - no, that is for the bad guys.
Scoring? - sure, why not? AV12 is easy to remove if anyone cares.
Point cost? - let's go for 1/3rd of the worse Chaos version - cancel that, make it available free.

Drop pods should be battlefield debries once they crash-landed. Everyone should have the same risk deep-striking. I hope that 8th Edition will make the later so - like AoS more or less has if I understand correctly.

I understand you have to pay points for not broken units to unlock free obsec rides, since tac marines are merely fairly costed, but the advantage of being able to block your opponent with a load of free rhinos and razorbacks, which force your opponent to focus their fire on them or spent turn after turn trying manouver around them, not to mention the afremorentioned drop dops more than makes up for that.

However, the worst by far is someone fielding a Gladius Cheese Force and pretending to be a Fluff-Bunny with a super fair list, oblivious to how broken that is against most armies.

SM - not to mention SW or other special snowflake chapters - can be just as - or with the "but we are the poor good guys stick" even more - annoying as Tau and Eldar. =]

*has high hopes for 8th properly leveling the field across the board*

Chaos was easily the most frustrating army to play against. A good mixed Daemons or Cabal list, and later anything to do with Tzeentch, was nut punchingly aweful to play against. Two games against chaos and I start praying for drop marines or TauDar.

Sidstyler wrote:Not really. I've seen actual Tau-bashing threads before (as well as ones that pretend to have a point but are thinly-veiled hate threads) and that one isn't really that bad. It's mostly full of people who don't like their rules which, to be honest, is actually a fair complaint.

Pretty much.

 Stephanius wrote:
Space Marines get to have their cake and eat it too. For me the prime example of that are drop pods.

Wait for Turn 2 - no, le'ts be special instead.
Scatter? - no, that is for the bad guys.
Scoring? - sure, why not? AV12 is easy to remove if anyone cares.
Point cost? - let's go for 1/3rd of the worse Chaos version - cancel that, make it available free.

Drop pods should be battlefield debries once they crash-landed. Everyone should have the same risk deep-striking. I hope that 8th Edition will make the later so - like AoS more or less has if I understand correctly.

I understand you have to pay points for not broken units to unlock free obsec rides, since tac marines are merely fairly costed, but the advantage of being able to block your opponent with a load of free rhinos and razorbacks, which force your opponent to focus their fire on them or spent turn after turn trying manouver around them, not to mention the afremorentioned drop dops more than makes up for that.

However, the worst by far is someone fielding a Gladius Cheese Force and pretending to be a Fluff-Bunny with a super fair list, oblivious to how broken that is against most armies.

SM - not to mention SW or other special snowflake chapters - can be just as - or with the "but we are the poor good guys stick" even more - annoying as Tau and Eldar. =]

*has high hopes for 8th properly leveling the field across the board*

Considering how easily this "I hate Space Marines" thread turned into another "I hate Tau" thread...

 Stephanius wrote:
Space Marines get to have their cake and eat it too. For me the prime example of that are drop pods.

Wait for Turn 2 - no, le'ts be special instead.
Scatter? - no, that is for the bad guys.
Scoring? - sure, why not? AV12 is easy to remove if anyone cares.
Point cost? - let's go for 1/3rd of the worse Chaos version - cancel that, make it available free.

Drop pods should be battlefield debries once they crash-landed. Everyone should have the same risk deep-striking. I hope that 8th Edition will make the later so - like AoS more or less has if I understand correctly.

I understand you have to pay points for not broken units to unlock free obsec rides, since tac marines are merely fairly costed, but the advantage of being able to block your opponent with a load of free rhinos and razorbacks, which force your opponent to focus their fire on them or spent turn after turn trying manouver around them, not to mention the afremorentioned drop dops more than makes up for that.

However, the worst by far is someone fielding a Gladius Cheese Force and pretending to be a Fluff-Bunny with a super fair list, oblivious to how broken that is against most armies.

SM - not to mention SW or other special snowflake chapters - can be just as - or with the "but we are the poor good guys stick" even more - annoying as Tau and Eldar. =]

*has high hopes for 8th properly leveling the field across the board*

Exactly How many units are silly with Drop Pods though? Far as I know the most popular use was with Skitarii. That's no longer a thing.

Drop pods don't make space marines strong.

 Marmatag wrote:
Drop pods don't make space marines strong.

Nope. Drop Pods make everything in the army weak on its own, because Space Marine units have to be designed/balanced assuming they could be anywhere they want on the table on turn one with a guaranteed shot before anyone gets to shoot back.

Imagine, for the moment, Fire Dragons with Drop Pods.

Would they be 35pts better? Or would they be absurdly, vastly, incalculably better?

Drop pods are fluffy and a good idea but very badly implemented.
Wargames are all about moving your troops and manouvering. Drop Pods are a point and click game system.

 Galas wrote:
Drop pods are fluffy and a good idea but very badly implemented.
Wargames are all about moving your troops and manouvering. Drop Pods are a point and click game system.

(Personally I'd implement them as just forward deployment. Roll on a table, some results are "the Drop Pod landed safely and you can put it down in no-man's-land", some results are "the Drop Pod landed off-target and the unit inside wanders on from a random table edge on turn (X)". Take away the "my secret doom arsenal is coming to explode you and there's not a thing you can do about it!" angle, make pods interactible/allow people to react to them.)

Careful, the thread will get locked if you don't agree with "STFU or don't play"

Danny slag wrote:
Careful, the thread will get locked if you don't agree with "STFU or don't play"

Will you please stop, no one told you that: you made that up yourself. If you'd like we can continue the discussion of whether this next edition favours marines but that is conditional on you stopping this childish behaviour.

Well, to all the Marine defenders, from the top of my head Marines:
-can completely negate my armies fighting capability via deepstrike
-Destroy my expensive and vulnerable hard hitters (LRBT) via deepstrike melta spam, unless I invest in hundreds of infantry to bubble wrap them, about forty per tank to ensure melta range i negated?
-Out tank me thanks to magic super special secret dquirrel abilities that they unlock by bringing full squadrons of their much cheaper tanks. S10 AP1 10" blast ignores cover? because you brought three Vindicators? Hahahaha NO.
-Unless I invest in carapace armoured vets, invalidate my armour.
-Outflank and rape, right into my deployment zone.
-Easily beat my infantry in a fire fight thanks to superior weapons, stats and armour.
-Wow, I finally forced a Marine unit to fail its morale check and flee, and because it is below 25% strength it needs double '1's to ral-oh wait, ATSKNF
-Oh wow, I finally beat a Marine squad in close combat, now for that juicy Sweeping Advance and hey, I rolled a '6' which with my Initiative gives me a '9', there is almost no way they can get away n-oh wait, ATSKNF
-I want to kill that big beasty, I have to invest in hundreds of shots backed up with orders. Marines need a grav cannon or two.
-"WAAAGGHHHH, FWEE TWANSPORTS IS NOOT GUD IT TEWWIBLE, I HWAVE TO BWING BASIC MAWENS". Cute, I wish I had a formation that gave me free Obsec transports whilst allowing me to still bring a relatively flexible and powerful fighting force. Sadly I am stuck with 1200 points of basic infantry, which gives me access to one more Platoon order, and an extra Company Command order. Oh, and removes Obsec from my units.
-Libraruius Conclave. Because they really, really REALLY, needed this.
-Skyrape intervention force. Hahahahaha NOPE. This basically invalidates my entire army on turn one.

So, yes, Marines are heinously broken. Maybe not so much as Eldar, but from the humble Guardsmans perspective, broken.

I wanted to originally reply to all of those points that Ordnance made, but to be honest it isn't worth it simply because of the Vindicator complaint.

If you can't cripple at least ONE Vindicator to stop the giant blast, you're a bad player. It's as simple as that. I can do that with Tyranids when I use them. Ya know, the army with the most limited AT.

MoO:

Again, some of those complaints are legitimate.

However, you are failing to consider that space marines are 14 ppm.

Yes, my marines are more durable, have better stats, etc. than your 5 point models.

That's not complaint-worthy.

I'm usually not a fan of "l2p," because there are a lot of legitimate balance issues in the game. Some lists are just better, and you need to outplay the opponent and be considerably luckier than them to win against those...

But MoO, I have been absolutely destroyed by some guard lists. I had a pod spam list with skyhammer, meltas, grav cannons etc at a GT, and I bounced right off a guard list that had vsg, a few barrage artillery, some psykers, and a ton of infantry blocking access to the shielded area and holding me out of melta range of the only armored target. Splashed off him like water. (Fwiw, it was Jason horn, the iron halo GT organizer, who is quite good.)

Maybe you're overlooking some builds that would help you out and not be so bitter against an army that honestly isn't that much better than yours. It has a greater number of viable lists, but part of that is formations, which I've been crusading as being the worst mechanic to hit the game ever, and grav, which is just silly. I don't touch either of those things with a 10 foot pole unless someone asks for the "tourney experience."

This edition is crappy, and there are a lot of builds that are bad because of bad point costing or bad rules. Vehicles suck, walkers suck, "older" (pre-grav) imperial heavy weapons suck, troops on foot suck, non-fearless guys suck, melee units that can't move at light speed or take hundreds of shots to bring down suck... the list goes on.

That's the state of the game this edition, and if you must win, then you have to have a grasp on that and build your list with it in mind. I'm not sure who your local marine player(s) are, but they must've been less than cordial to you for you to be so indiscriminately negative towards marine players you've never met, but maybe you could try asking them for less competitive games with no gladius or grav, and ask for help building some lists or using the units in game.

 Stephanius wrote:
Space Marines get to have their cake and eat it too. For me the prime example of that are drop pods.

Wait for Turn 2 - no, le'ts be special instead.
Scatter? - no, that is for the bad guys.
Scoring? - sure, why not? AV12 is easy to remove if anyone cares.
Point cost? - let's go for 1/3rd of the worse Chaos version - cancel that, make it available free.

Drop pods should be battlefield debries once they crash-landed. Everyone should have the same risk deep-striking. I hope that 8th Edition will make the later so - like AoS more or less has if I understand correctly.

I understand you have to pay points for not broken units to unlock free obsec rides, since tac marines are merely fairly costed, but the advantage of being able to block your opponent with a load of free rhinos and razorbacks, which force your opponent to focus their fire on them or spent turn after turn trying manouver around them, not to mention the afremorentioned drop dops more than makes up for that.

However, the worst by far is someone fielding a Gladius Cheese Force and pretending to be a Fluff-Bunny with a super fair list, oblivious to how broken that is against most armies.

SM - not to mention SW or other special snowflake chapters - can be just as - or with the "but we are the poor good guys stick" even more - annoying as Tau and Eldar. =]

*has high hopes for 8th properly leveling the field across the board*

There is a very easy way to judge whose running a gladius cheese list and whose not. "how many marines to a squad?"
if he's running a demi company with 3 ten man tac squads, he's no cheesing,. (hell if he's running a BATTLE COMPANY with 10 man squads he's proably not cheesing) as always the fluff vs cheese question re marines can beanswered with "did he take more tac marines then is nesscary?"

Okay, from the top:

@ Slayer Fan.
I had a Marine opponent whose chief trick was to run a 5 man Libby Conclave and a triple Vindiderp squadron. He would roll util he got Invisibility and then set up with the Vindicators in a solid wall with the Librarians behind them and then cast Invisibility on them ever single turn. So I had a wall of invisible vindicators advancing towards me, with a unit of Librarians hiding behind them and there was nothing I could do, leastwhys until Sisters of Silence where released last year. Also most of my AT consists of Melta guns with only three Rapiers for support.... You make the call.

@ Tradito
But to make one of my 6 point Veterans a Marine I have to pay (and this is pure theory based on prices in the Inquisition codex in some cases):
1.5 points for Carapace (Grenadiers)
8 points to upgrade it to Power Armour (Inquisitor option)
1 point for Krak Grenades (Guard)
1/2 point(s) for a Bolter (Guard codex again)
That is already 17 points, and not counting ATSKNF or Chapter Tactics or any stat line increases.
Otherwise, it is just the level of stupidly good stuff/formations that they have access too that really just makes facing them un-fun.

@ niy-mizzed
And I have utterly destroyed some Marine lists, but still lost some of those games owing to the sheer mobility that the Marines have, allowing them to capture objectives whilst I cannot even leave my deployment zone for fear of assaults and if I do still be unable to make it to the objective fast enough..

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stephanius wrote:
Space Marines get to have their cake and eat it too. For me the prime example of that are drop pods.

Wait for Turn 2 - no, le'ts be special instead.
Scatter? - no, that is for the bad guys.
Scoring? - sure, why not? AV12 is easy to remove if anyone cares.
Point cost? - let's go for 1/3rd of the worse Chaos version - cancel that, make it available free.

Drop pods should be battlefield debries once they crash-landed. Everyone should have the same risk deep-striking. I hope that 8th Edition will make the later so - like AoS more or less has if I understand correctly.

I understand you have to pay points for not broken units to unlock free obsec rides, since tac marines are merely fairly costed, but the advantage of being able to block your opponent with a load of free rhinos and razorbacks, which force your opponent to focus their fire on them or spent turn after turn trying manouver around them, not to mention the afremorentioned drop dops more than makes up for that.

However, the worst by far is someone fielding a Gladius Cheese Force and pretending to be a Fluff-Bunny with a super fair list, oblivious to how broken that is against most armies.

SM - not to mention SW or other special snowflake chapters - can be just as - or with the "but we are the poor good guys stick" even more - annoying as Tau and Eldar. =]

*has high hopes for 8th properly leveling the field across the board*

There is a very easy way to judge whose running a gladius cheese list and whose not. "how many marines to a squad?"
if he's running a demi company with 3 ten man tac squads, he's no cheesing,. (hell if he's running a BATTLE COMPANY with 10 man squads he's proably not cheesing) as always the fluff vs cheese question re marines can beanswered with "did he take more tac marines then is nesscary?"

What if he can't actually get tac marines?
I mean Grey Hunters can't get Heavy Weapons, can only really be upgraded to melee specialists, can't combat squad and get into all the wolfyness you could ever wolf on your wolfiest wolf.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Okay, from the top:

@ Slayer Fan.
I had a Marine opponent whose chief trick was to run a 5 man Libby Conclave and a triple Vindiderp squadron. He would roll util he got Invisibility and then set up with the Vindicators in a solid wall with the Librarians behind them and then cast Invisibility on them ever single turn. So I had a wall of invisible vindicators advancing towards me, with a unit of Librarians hiding behind them and there was nothing I could do, leastwhys until Sisters of Silence where released last year. Also most of my AT consists of Melta guns with only three Rapiers for support.... You make the call.

@ Tradito
But to make one of my 6 point Veterans a Marine I have to pay (and this is pure theory based on prices in the Inquisition codex in some cases):
1.5 points for Carapace (Grenadiers)
8 points to upgrade it to Power Armour (Inquisitor option)
1 point for Krak Grenades (Guard)
1/2 point(s) for a Bolter (Guard codex again)
That is already 17 points, and not counting ATSKNF or Chapter Tactics or any stat line increases.
Otherwise, it is just the level of stupidly good stuff/formations that they have access too that really just makes facing them un-fun.

@ niy-mizzed
And I have utterly destroyed some Marine lists, but still lost some of those games owing to the sheer mobility that the Marines have, allowing them to capture objectives whilst I cannot even leave my deployment zone for fear of assaults and if I do still be unable to make it to the objective fast enough..

Psst, use a higher ppm unit to highlight the difference... like Militarum Tempestus. Also speaking of Militarum Tempestus, your previous post MT could do 2/3rds of what you listed ATSKNF being the exception.

What? They can do 4 points at best, not anywhere near 2/3 of the list.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Okay, from the top:

@ Slayer Fan.
I had a Marine opponent whose chief trick was to run a 5 man Libby Conclave and a triple Vindiderp squadron. He would roll util he got Invisibility and then set up with the Vindicators in a solid wall with the Librarians behind them and then cast Invisibility on them ever single turn. So I had a wall of invisible vindicators advancing towards me, with a unit of Librarians hiding behind them and there was nothing I could do, leastwhys until Sisters of Silence where released last year. Also most of my AT consists of Melta guns with only three Rapiers for support.... You make the call.

You play guard. You have probably the best answer to this if anyone. Barrage for days. Set up 30" away from the vindi's, either toss the plates on the tanks (if playing ITC invis nerf) or on the libbies if playing by-book invis. He is pouring over 800 points for 3 vindis and 5 lv2 libbies, more if he's tossing in Tiggy or other upgrades. That's a titanic investment for a single decent shot with crap range and some very debilitating weaknesses. Find out which guy rolled invis and put 300 pie plates on his head, and then proceed to nuke the tanks after they become visible. (You also can accidentally hit the tanks at the same time. A single shaken result and the mega shot can't even fire.)

@ niv-mizzet
And I have utterly destroyed some Marine lists, but still lost some of those games owing to the sheer mobility that the Marines have, allowing them to capture objectives whilst I cannot even leave my deployment zone for fear of assaults and if I do still be unable to make it to the objective fast enough..

They move 6 and run d6. No more mobile than you. And there's no need to be scared of basic marines in melee. Some frontline guard with a cheapo priest can easily rock them out. They suck at melee when considering their point cost. (And in fact their damage output all around is awful for their cost,) the only thing they really have going for them is okay durability. Even if they beat your squads, you should be losing cheap as chips guard while your ordnance and barrage continues to wreck their day. That's a win.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, to all the Marine defenders, from the top of my head Marines:
-can completely negate my armies fighting capability via deepstrike
-Destroy my expensive and vulnerable hard hitters (LRBT) via deepstrike melta spam, unless I invest in hundreds of infantry to bubble wrap them, about forty per tank to ensure melta range i negated?
-Out tank me thanks to magic super special secret dquirrel abilities that they unlock by bringing full squadrons of their much cheaper tanks. S10 AP1 10" blast ignores cover? because you brought three Vindicators? Hahahaha NO.
-Unless I invest in carapace armoured vets, invalidate my armour.
-Outflank and rape, right into my deployment zone.
-Easily beat my infantry in a fire fight thanks to superior weapons, stats and armour.
-Wow, I finally forced a Marine unit to fail its morale check and flee, and because it is below 25% strength it needs double '1's to ral-oh wait, ATSKNF
-Oh wow, I finally beat a Marine squad in close combat, now for that juicy Sweeping Advance and hey, I rolled a '6' which with my Initiative gives me a '9', there is almost no way they can get away n-oh wait, ATSKNF
-I want to kill that big beasty, I have to invest in hundreds of shots backed up with orders. Marines need a grav cannon or two.
-"WAAAGGHHHH, FWEE TWANSPORTS IS NOOT GUD IT TEWWIBLE, I HWAVE TO BWING BASIC MAWENS". Cute, I wish I had a formation that gave me free Obsec transports whilst allowing me to still bring a relatively flexible and powerful fighting force. Sadly I am stuck with 1200 points of basic infantry, which gives me access to one more Platoon order, and an extra Company Command order. Oh, and removes Obsec from my units.
-Libraruius Conclave. Because they really, really REALLY, needed this.
-Skyrape intervention force. Hahahahaha NOPE. This basically invalidates my entire army on turn one.

So, yes, Marines are heinously broken. Maybe not so much as Eldar, but from the humble Guardsmans perspective, broken.

Can't help if you aren't good at list building. You should have few problems with non-battle company, non-super friends lists. Drop pods strand units on foot who are easily out-maneuvered after they drop. Marines usually can't afford stormravens, but guard CAN afford Valkyries. Use them.

master of ordinance wrote:@ Tradito
But to make one of my 6 point Veterans a Marine I have to pay (and this is pure theory based on prices in the Inquisition codex in some cases):
1.5 points for Carapace (Grenadiers)
8 points to upgrade it to Power Armour (Inquisitor option)
1 point for Krak Grenades (Guard)
1/2 point(s) for a Bolter (Guard codex again)
That is already 17 points, and not counting ATSKNF or Chapter Tactics or any stat line increases.
Otherwise, it is just the level of stupidly good stuff/formations that they have access too that really just makes facing them un-fun..

People have basically been making this same kind of argument for ages now...long before 7th, long before 6th edition. Marines get too many special rules. Marines have too good of a stat line. And so forth and so on.

Here's the deal:

A marine is a 14 point model. They used to be more expensive. The price has come down. But let's be real about this: it's still a 14 point model.

Is it more expensive for you to upgrade a guardsmen piece meal up to an almost marine like status (though still not quite)?

Of course it is.

You're not supposed to do that. That's not what the IG codex is supposed to do.

Fact is, IG has extremely cheap infantry and, correspondingly, a fair deal of points efficiency for their fire power.

A meltagun costs a minimum of 80 points in the marine codex.

It only costs 70 in the IG codex, and then, you have five more meat shields to protect that meltagun. [But let's be real. You'll pay 90 for 3 meltaguns...that would cost a minimum of 240 points in the marines codex.]

Fact is, marines pay a high initial points cost for a set of stats and rules that they probably will not utilize all together in a single game. For example: if you put a meltagun on a marine, you are wasting those 4s in the WS and S portions of the stat line.

Oh, you put a power sword on sarge? Then you'll be wasting that 4 in the BS part of the stat line once you're actually in combat, as well as the value of the boltgun itself.

You think basic marines are so great and IG are so bad?

I tell you what.

You field a marine army. Don't use drop pods. Don't use grav. Don't use any of the "crutch" options. Use only marines in power armor (for example, no centurions).

Field that against an IG army.

Tell me how that works out for you.


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I tell you what, MoO, while we're on the topic...

...why don't we talk about how ridiculous it is that you get to field a model with a 4 in the BS part of the stat line for only 6 points?

Or why don't we talk about how ridiculously cheap and spammable your tanks, artillery and fliers are?

 Traditio wrote:

master of ordinance wrote:@ Tradito
But to make one of my 6 point Veterans a Marine I have to pay (and this is pure theory based on prices in the Inquisition codex in some cases):
1.5 points for Carapace (Grenadiers)
8 points to upgrade it to Power Armour (Inquisitor option)
1 point for Krak Grenades (Guard)
1/2 point(s) for a Bolter (Guard codex again)
That is already 17 points, and not counting ATSKNF or Chapter Tactics or any stat line increases.
Otherwise, it is just the level of stupidly good stuff/formations that they have access too that really just makes facing them un-fun..

People have basically been making this same kind of argument for ages now...long before 7th, long before 6th edition. Marines get too many special rules. Marines have too good of a stat line. And so forth and so on.

Here's the deal:

A marine is a 14 point model. They used to be more expensive. The price has come down. But let's be real about this: it's still a 14 point model.

Is it more expensive for you to upgrade a guardsmen piece meal up to an almost marine like status (though still not quite)?

Of course it is.

You're not supposed to do that. That's not what the IG codex is supposed to do.

Fact is, IG has extremely cheap infantry and, correspondingly, a fair deal of points efficiency for their fire power.

A meltagun costs a minimum of 80 points in the marine codex.

It only costs 70 in the IG codex, and then, you have five more meat shields to protect that meltagun. [But let's be real. You'll pay 90 for 3 meltaguns...that would cost a minimum of 240 points in the marines codex.]

Fact is, marines pay a high initial points cost for a set of stats and rules that they probably will not utilize all together in a single game. For example: if you put a meltagun on a marine, you are wasting those 4s in the WS and S portions of the stat line.

Oh, you put a power sword on sarge? Then you'll be wasting that 4 in the BS part of the stat line once you're actually in combat, as well as the value of the boltgun itself.

You think basic marines are so great and IG are so bad?

I tell you what.

You field a marine army. Don't use drop pods. Don't use grav. Don't use any of the "crutch" options. Use only marines in power armor (for example, no centurions).

Field that against an IG army.

Tell me how that works out for you.

It's a TRAP!
He's trying to get you to buy Marines insert chosen religious top dog here forbid you buying Marines! You'll just make them more popular and prone to better statlines and more free stuff!

Leeman Russes OP.

That's all I'm saying.

master of ordinance wrote:@ Tradito
But to make one of my 6 point Veterans a Marine I have to pay (and this is pure theory based on prices in the Inquisition codex in some cases):
1.5 points for Carapace (Grenadiers)
8 points to upgrade it to Power Armour (Inquisitor option)
1 point for Krak Grenades (Guard)
1/2 point(s) for a Bolter (Guard codex again)
That is already 17 points, and not counting ATSKNF or Chapter Tactics or any stat line increases.
Otherwise, it is just the level of stupidly good stuff/formations that they have access too that really just makes facing them un-fun..

Alternate counter-argument: not all option pricing is created equal. 8pts for power armour on an Inquisitor, for instance, is a 3+ save on three Wounds. Why is it the same price on one Wound?

Consider instead the case of the Imperialis Militia list over in 30k. For the price of Survivors of the Dark Age (a one-time 75pt upgrade on your HQ) all your Grenadier squads are running around with 3+ armour, add in Advanced Weapons and lasrifles and you're looking at 7.5pt models with Ld7 Veteran statlines, power armour, 30" range boltguns, and frag and krak grenades. 30k and 40k pricing may not be created equal (a Tactical Marine is 11.5pts in a full squad in 30k, 12.5 in a minimum squad), and I do grant that the 17pt Guard Veteran and the 7.5pt Militia Grenadier are extreme cases in the pricing of a Guard veteran in power armour with a bolter, but it still seems to me like you've constructed a pretty incomplete picture of the situation.

The problem still seems to be that we've got two sides arguing almost unrelated points here. Traditio's pointing out that C:SM has poor internal balance and needs the stupid shenanigans to get anything done, master of ordinance is pointing out that Space Marines in a vacuum are still sitting on a big stack of advantages most infantry don't enjoy.

Yes. They do. And yes. They are. The problem is that power creep and gun size creep have made the advantages of being a Space Marine irrelevant in competitive environments, so the Space Marine player is thinking "dude, I need all this stuff to do something about all the people steamrolling me", and people with lower-tier/less-updated armies are thinking "dude, you're already light-years ahead of us, stop whining", and they're both correct because the arguments are unrelated.


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 Traditio wrote:
Leeman Russes OP.

That's all I'm saying.

*pft*

*pft*

Ha.

(Maybe once the AoS-style random-hits blast rules show up and battle cannons become more effective than flyswatters against anything with more than one Wound/hull point.)

AnomanderRake wrote:Traditio's pointing out that C:SM has poor internal balance and needs the stupid shenanigans to get anything done, master of ordinance is pointing out that Space Marines in a vacuum are still sitting on a big stack of advantages most infantry don't enjoy.

I'm actually not making that claim at all.

This is what I'm saying:

"Marines get too many special rules," etc. is a stupid thing to say. It's a 14 point model.

Complaining that guardsmen are individually terrible whereas marines are individually much better just doesn't make sense.

You're comparing a 5 point model to a 14 point model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Consider this point:

If tactical marines were in the IG codex, does anybody here honestly think that IG players would take them?

No. They'd still field vets instead.