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 Otto von Bludd wrote:
The new rules for cover will affect AM; it appears that in order to get a cover save the entire unit must be in or on a terrain feature. If that is the extent of the rules for cover then it will be nearly impossible for a large Guard blob to get a cover save.

Then build or convince the guys at your club to build large terrain elements.

OK easier said than done...

 argonak wrote:
I'm putting together some scions.

I bought one plain box:

1 Tempestor, chainsword and boltgun
1 Plasma
1 Melta
2 Hot Shot Lasguns

I have a start collecting box on the way.

I'm thinking of doing:
1 Tempestor Prime
1 Plasma
1 Melta
2 Hot Shot Volly Gun
5 Hot Shot Lasguns

I feel like this would give me some good variety of weapon options for the squad, plus the associated character. I don't want to lock myself into anything too hard, as this is my starting foray into 8th. I'm leaving my orks and space marines on their shelves for now.

Any thoughts? Would a flamer and grenade launcher be worth putting together? They seem a bit lackluster in comparison to the other three weapon types.

I would advise you to build as many plasma dudes as possible, with a pinch of meltaguns for good measure. Hot shot volley guns are mediocre.
GW still sells packs of 5 plasmaguns in their Finecast line. They come with a right SM hand that would not be out of place on a scion model.
This is the most direct way to have a lot of this very useful weapon without paying absurd amounts of money from bitz ebay stores.

One Manticore, certainly, two most probably if you like it, tree is maybe too many.

The manticore is not an all-purpose ordnance tank, it is best at chasing down heavy stuff like transports, monsters, multi-wound heavy infantry. You will still need to dedicate some slots to deal with lighter and more numerous targets. For this work you will need units like mortars HWS , wyverns, dakka leman russ.

Thanks for the report.

What about a third, but proper thread with a fleshed-out first post, index to contributions, links and polls ? I could manage that if people want it.

You could buy a blister of 5 Finecast plasma guns, they will add a lot of value to your scions squads by releasing a lot of firepower for cheap.
I've run some numbers on scions guns, and seriously, plasma is too good for the price.

So about scions here are some simple numbers (mean number of damage) :

Take a half-size scion troop squad with 2 special weapons and always a plasma pistol on the sergeant. In the turn they drop between 9.5 - 12 inches of a big target, they fire all their weapons at it. I do count the 2 hot-shot lasguns as contributing to the firepower. On overcharge, I assume there is a tempestor order to reroll .I have put also the humble grenade launcher to stress out the gap between this weapon and plasma guns which costs only 2 points more.


vs. T'au Piranhas , ork warbuggies & Co (T5 Sv 4+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 2.000
squad with plasma guns : 2.593
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 5.099
squad with melta guns : 3.926


vs. Killa kans or t'au commander (T5 Sv 3+) :

squad with grenade launchers : 1.556
squad with plasma guns : 2.148
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.667
squad with melta guns : 3.778


vs average tyranid monster (T6 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.185
squad with plasma guns : 2.000
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 4.494
squad with melta guns : 3.630


vs. Aeldari War Walker, Drukhari vehicles (T6 Sv 4+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 1.333
squad with plasma guns : 1.630
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.630
squad with melta guns : 2.519


vs Carnifex, Wraithlord or the average tank (T7 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.870
squad with plasma guns : 1.537
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 3.537

vs Riptide (T7 Sv 2+ i5++)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.630
squad with plasma guns : 1.963
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.093
squad with melta guns : 2.556


Tough tank like Vindicator (T8 Sv 3+)

squad with grenade launchers : 0.778
squad with plasma guns : 1.074
squad with rerollable overcharged plasma : 3.414
squad with melta guns : 2.667


Houston, we've got a problem !

Plasma guns are much better than grenade launchers for just a little more price. They retain their efficiency better against big targets.
Overcharged plasma guns consistently outshine meltaguns in all but one scenario at their job of chasing down tough stuff.
What the developers were thinking when they made plasma guns only 7 points ? This thing needs to be at least 10 points !
I see no reason to not spam plasma in scions squads. They are better than any other weapon and very versatile, except maybe at horde control.

Hello guys. Haven't you noticed that sentinels are now OOP / no longer available online ?
GW certainly is planning to redo a codex soon, with an update to sentinel.

 CplPunishment wrote:
The valk is overpriced and inaccurate on the move. That said, it is quite literally a flying tank!

I tried the Valkyrie a few times and my initial impression agrees with you. Interesting to play, but somewhat underpowered for the price, despite the boost to her firepower.
Maybe I should try it with additional heavy bolters for having 2D6+6 STR 5 AP-1 shots, but the problem of being a mobile vehicle by nature would be still there.

Reece vs Frankie from Frontline Gaming made available on youtube their battle report of 2000 pts Astra Militarum vs Death Guard :

Hello.

Could someone with a Facebook account ask GW the question about "Send in the next wave" stratagem ? Does it needs you to put aside reinforcement points on list writing level ?
As a Valhallan player, I hope not, of course. I feel this stratagem is essential to make Valhallan stand as interesting among other regiments. If unusable, they would lose a lot of their appeal.

ajax_xaja wrote:

 argonak wrote:
Even at 13 points per gun, Plasma still beats Melta for average damage.

You get 8 plasma shots with D2, versus 4 melta shots D6. If all shots hit and wound, plasma gets 16 every time, while 4 melta average 14, with a 4-24 swing..

And its a difference of 4 points total. Plasma is also strong against a wider variety of targets. I'd take versatility and reliability over that swing any day, even for 4 more points. Melta does have that one more point of AP though, so that's something in its favor. There's no reason you can do a split either, and bring 3 plasma and 1 melta.

Melta only beats Plasma if you can get into half range. So really only if you put them on veterans in a Valkyrie. Because putting Scions in a Valkyrie is wasting your grav chut ability.

If you're playing with index too, you can also put melta on rough riders, which honestly looks like a pretty good option, although I haven't tried it.

Thanks for crunching the numbers, awesome analysis. So if I'm taking plenty of plasmas, what do you think should go on my taurox primes? Obviously the gatling cannons are fun for anti infantry clear, but would you lean battle cannon or missile rack between the two? Not really sure how common T8 is, but I'm liking the versatility of the missile launchers to switch between anti-horde or armor, even though they're coming in at 22 points more.

On the topic of melta-guns vs plasma I have done a big comparison in Polonius tactical topic here :
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/730110.page#9460349
Plasma stands out as the best overall option provided you add tempestor prime for the critical re-rolls of but melta is still good at hunting big targets.

 vipoid wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Agreed. Though if it makes you feel any better, I suspect this is unintentional. I'm sure with other similar rules, GW have always left it as being a choice. The wording on this I reckon is a mistake, typical GW not proof-reading their rules properly before printing. I'd suggest writing in the question, because they may well correct the FAQ wording. Would NOT be the first time this sort of thing has happened.

It's possible, but even if it was changed I'm not sure that Commissars would be worthwhile for infantry. I mean, even without the reroll being compulsary, it can still end up costing you more guys (especially since the model the commissar killed is in addition to any morale losses).

Paying 31+pts to reduce morale losses on my infantry squads was a price I was prepared to pay.

Paying 31+pts to *maybe* reduce morale losses but often also with a chance to increase them . . . that's a lot less appealing.


On the other hand, Valhallan is looking more attractive.

I will miss the morale boost from the commissar as much as I miss the convenience that combined squads gave us.
Valhallan doctrine may look as a fall-back option, but their unique stratagem has been severely restricted in use due to the need of setting aside reinforcement points. As Polonius said, Valhallan regiment goes from situationally good to bottom tier.

Well, some months have passed since I last were following the thread. So I have read the last 20 pages to infuse myself with the latest tactics, and search for my questioning, without finding a clear answer.

What I am wondering is about the most favourable loadouts for line infantry squads. In the published lists for tournaments (or for more casual play) I see in my country, line infantry squads are mostly played barebones : so as a screen and occasional objective grabbers. On the other hand the way I am used to play them is somewhat inherited from the powerblob of late. Sure, I quickly dropped the power weapons, but I kept the lascannons. However with first turn charges (or at least second turn), plus alpha-strikes and such things, I'm questioning about the utility of equipping the squads with a lascannon, despite how good this weapon may be.

Is keeping the squads cheap a move everyone else has done ? Am I simply too much used to my beloved lascannons ?
What I'm thinking of doing now is to keep a heavy weapon team, but a much cheaper heavy bolter, add a boltgun for the sergeant. So that would total 49 points for the squad which is still reasonable, gives them a definite purpose as anti-horde, letting tempestus scions and support tanks the responsibility of hitting hard targets.

Thoughts ?

+1
And you can load two of these squads in a Chimera or a Valkyrie. They should arrive on turn 2 or 3 on their target.

I would run 4 bullgryns in a chimera, or better, in a valkyrie.
The other option would be a squad of at least 5 or 6 on foot, supported by a psyker (psychic barrier) and a priest.
A squad of 3 is not enough in 1750 points format.

Seems strong, but I think there is not enough infantry to protect the tanks. I would drop a Basilisk (or a Leman Russ), thus giving enough points to buy 2 (or 3) infantry squads.
With the spare points you could upgrade the squads with some mortars or heavy bolters.

There is a little mistake also. A named character cannot be given a relic. So you will need to find a turnaround about this, if you still want Kurov's aquila.

Oops ! I read the line below Straken too fast.

tneva82 wrote:
BTW on YMDC was pointed out valid way which counters RIS pretty well. Start up with shadowsword. Declare targets for it. Pick 2 knights. Knight player then has to choose whether to activate +1 inv save. Then fire AT guns on the other knight and heavy bolter(s) to the boosted shield one. Watch knight go up in flames along with 1 CP.

Only time this doesn't really work is if you are up against raven castellan at which point you pretty much need to try at that castellan and hope for best unless you are satisfied at trading shadowsword for one of the other knights and 3 CP from knights when he boosts shields for castellan and you shoot at other knight with volcano cannon instead.

Nice ! Pretty useful rules trick.

How about asking directly to GW? If enough people ask, maybe they will issue an official FAQ paragraph about this issue.

Hello fellow Guard commanders.

I need your help to define in which direction I could evolve my Imperial Guard into.
In more than ten years of playing, I have only accumulated barely 1700 points of painted, pure Astra Militarum force.
Plus a few boxes of figurines to build, a few unpainted, and too many stalled projects... just enough to cross the 2000 points threshold.
Now I have decided to speed up the process.

Until now, I almost exclusively played 1000 points battles, due to time constraints.
But I would like to expand my W40k horizon and go beyond this barrier.

First of my problems is my very low win rate.
The second problem is I have no particular coherency, nor theme in my army.
So I would like to pick a theme (or two) and be able to say : my guard is a xxxx regiment (with yyyy support).
Currently I feel having a hodgepodge of an army, little of everything, and that dispersion shows on the tabletop results.

I field old-school Valhallan infantry, plus Kasrkin Militarum Tempestus.
Globally everything below the size of a tank is metal (and I want it to remain that way).
As of now, the limit was only tree squads of line infantry, some heavy weapons teams, plus 2 Militarum Tempestus full sized squads.
A fourth squad of Valhallans is painted, a fifth is on the schedule, plus a third squad of Militarum Tempestus.
But that will be it for my beloved metal little dudes. I will soon run out of miniatures, they have become difficult to find and too expensive.
I am sourcing alternative sergeants / some special weapons with metal miniatures from a small producer from the UK, but that is about it.
And I do not want to mix plastic / resin conversions, so I am now looking at vehicles to expand the army further.

So which vehicles to would be the best to complement this small force ?

If you need a more complete list of what I have currently, I can post that.

First, thanks for the replies. Any help is appreciated.

I'm not limited to the valhallan doctrine, sometimes I explore the advantages offered by other doctrines.
But for figurines, yeah sure.

I do not like the conscript squad, it would eat all my regular valhallan infantrymen.
They don't fight well, rely on a nerfed commissar or a relic to hold their morale.
Snipers are not rare...

The reason I am currently limited to three infantry squads is from 5th-6th editions, when power blob was a force to consider. Three squads was the sweet spot, especially for 1000 points battles.
Plus, currently many tournaments in France impose very stringent restrictions on army composition (except the "no limit" ones), even on troops, so 3 equipped squads is all I needed until now.
But I stop bothering you with this. I acknowledge the need for more squads.

So...
Did I said equipped squads ?
Well, I like having some upgrades in my line squads. The barebones squad @ 40 points feels very bland to me.
Fortunately I have a nice selections of valhallan heavy / special weapons.
1) Do you equip your line squads ?

On a tactical point of view, my observation is that the Leman Russ (and Tank commanders) can prove nice, but they are pricey.
However, they need : to be exposed, to move on position and repeated sacrificial protection.
Not something I can reasonably afford with 4-5 squads of guardsmen.

I feel that hidden indirect fire artillery is less prone to these problems.
Moreover, the ITC / ETC ruling about floor level of ruins counting as LOS blocking has spread fast here.
So indirect fire is a nice to have.
I have a Manticore, which I find to be in a better shape in 8th than during the last two editions.
2) What about taking more Manticores ?
3) Should I favor other artillery ?

I understand the remark of Hellhounds being good, but if I can mimic their firepower with Chimeras, could it be viable ?
To explain what I'm thinking about : in order to earn Maelstrom points, conquer objectives for the end game, Chimeras transporting squads can prove useful, aren't they ?
So now, I'm thinking about fielding some of them, equipped with dual heavy flamers. This negates any minus to hit modifiers, provide solid counter-charge fire.
Both chimera chassis and heavy flamers got significant point reductions.

4) How much Chimeras ?
Only for some special weapons squads ?
What about a fully mechanised guard ?

From what I have tested, I feel that plasma cannons are really worth their price if you can safely overcharge.
Meaning you should preferably take them on tank commanders, and not aiming at minus to hit targets.
On basic LRBT, heavy bolters are fine, especially for good rate of fire needs.
In addition, resolving target priority and dice rolling is simple and fast with 9 HB shots, which is convenient in tournaments.

Hello.
With lots of plasma, plasma executioner, and battle cannons, you have your anti-tank and anti-elite needs well covered.
You should have some indirect firepower, and also take a look at anti-horde units.
So one or two mortar HWS, a wyvern or two would be good complements to your list.

We are unlikely to have a new IG codex in the foreseeable future. GW is currently expanding the Primaris range by adding some newly created kits, and fixing the chapter traits.
There you have the need for an updated codex.
Plus they have seen an opportunity to charge SM players for a base codex + supplement instead of one big codex. ££ + ££
The current trend is all marines, all the way (renegade or loyalist), with the exception of Adepta Sororitas somewhere during the end of the year.

Hello.

In some of my recent games I managed to score some nice hits with meltaguns in transports (one, then two special weapons squads, using proxies).
But I may have been lucky, or my opponents weak.
I wonder if using two such squads in a Valkyrie would be good enough to be played in tournaments.
Would a transported pair of special weapons squads, with 6 meltaguns, have sufficient utility against vehicles / monsters to be worth the buy ?
Are meltaguns a "has been" weapon ?

Currently I have one squad of meltaguns.

Well thanks for the interesting replies guys !

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Horst wrote:
Here's the problem with melta vs plasma...

consider your 6 melta guns vs 6 plasma guns. If both shoot at an enemy Rhino, and the Plasma guns overcharge, here's what you're looking at for expected damage.

6 meltas = 3 hits, 2 wounds, ~6-8 damage.
6 plasmas = 6 hits, 4 wounds, ~6-8 damage.

Just napkin math here, the damage output looks pretty similar. The difference here though is that plasma is cheaper, longer range, and better against infantry since it has more shots, and the higher damage isn't wasted.

Which is sad. Plasma has been the more expensive weapon ever since I started, and yet for some reason GW just can't get through their head that plasma is the better weapon. If they could just swap the prices it would go a long way towards more melta showing up. Problem is GW has a massive hardon for AP and D6 damage and doesn't seem to appreciate flat damage and better range/rof. That or they just assume people never overcharge their plasma.

Meltas not even a bad weapon, Ive had some good results with them too, but it's almost always a "whelp I'm out of plasma models" situation. I've never had a target where melta felt like the superior weapon. Especially with all the invulns out there. You really need weight of fire to get through them, single shot weapons just bounce off them too much.

I have to admit these are sound remarks. In line infantry squads, there is no question the plasma gun is way better.

However, I'm willing to try making a dual special weapons squad work. They would be embarked, preferably in a Valkyrie. Thanks to her very high mobility, it may be possible to position the squads in such a way that they are within 6" of the target.
If unobtainable due to screens, a distance below 12" should most probably be achieved. So the meltaguns would be in position of firing by turn 2 (if not turn 1, using the grav chutes ability of Valkyrie).

So I agree plasma guns are a better weapon overall, inexplicably made cheaper than melta guns in 8th edition rules. There is however a problem in trying to make them the most efficient possible : availability of orders. I think you pretty much need "take aim" order to reroll for a safe overcharge, 2 damage firepower. On the other hand, rerolling on meltaguns is, for sure, a nice bonus, but not anywhere near a requirement. There is the tricky part : you cannot have an officer nearby if you take two special weapons squad in a Chimera or a Valkyrie. You would have to switch one of them into a command squad. So here are the total costs :

* Two special weapons squads, 6 melta guns = 108 points
OR
* 3 melta guns special weapons squad + 4 plasma guns command squad + platoon commander = 142 points

The plasma option is not cheap anymore, but my reasoning may be skewed.
The second option definitely has more firepower. Is it worth it ?
Aaargh , I don't know which way to decide.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ravajaxe wrote:
They would be embarked, preferably in a Valkyrie. Thanks to her very high mobility, it may be possible to position the squads in such a way that they are within 6" of the target.

Nope. You can't drop them within 9" of any enemy models and they can't move after you place them. Before the most recent FAQ removed the ability to move it was a decent strategy but now it's useless.

I know, I was thinking about a second turn conventional disembark (so 9" out of Valkyrie base).
Which lets the opponent a turn to try to get out of short range melta, sure...

Thank you MrMoustaffa for this compelling post.
That's decided then.

I was already building plasma guns scions, and shelved my 4 scions meltaguns due to wacky efficiency.
I have a Valhallan special weapons squad of 3 meltaguns, painted since ages. I'm planning to continue to use them from time to time.
No more meltaguns, next step will be to add some more plasma by adding Cadians to my Valhallan regiment.
Plasma guns don't exist in Valhallan range, which is a shame.

So you have 2+2 artillery vehicles, right ? I think it is already quite a lot to protect with your 6 squads. I would not add another vulnerable vehicle.
On the other hand, Hellhounds in Catachan can be hot. Their other advantage is getting you quite confident about not getting charged in melee due to respectable over-watch.
I would take neither however, but mortar squads instead. The more I play, the more dissatisfied I am about vehicle rules in 8th edition.

Vostroyan Demolishers (with 30" range) can be pretty good also. Tallarn is better for shoot and hide shenanigans.
At least in my area, there is a trend leaning to more heavily terrain loaded tables. In a LOS blocking environment, a quite short ranged gun is not a big liability.