Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Razerous wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
You seem to have missed the part where rerolling morale isn't optional. Have fun rolling a 1 or 2 for morale and then not only being forced to reroll it but having to kill an additional model for the privilege.

You only re-roll a failed morale test.. so rolling a 1 or a 2 would usually pass, right?

I guess if your opponent is attacking your conscripts with water pistols.

Niiru wrote:

They're now what they should always have been - somewhat survivable chaff that can still deal a lot of damage, but only if they survive long enough to do so without running away. The only change they need now is that the commissar ability should be a choice, not compulsory.

I mean, it's been that way for, what, 10 years now? I'd consider myself still in shock, to be honest. It's a significant change.

From a game-balance point of view, I would be less bothered by it if it was optional, as you say. Even then I don't think it's something I'd concern myself with much.

Niiru wrote:

This is what makes me kinda laugh a bit... everyone seems to think it was perfectly fine for conscripts (the cheapest, most worthless untrained standard humans the universe has to offer. One step above farmers with pitchforks) to be cheap, survivable, hard-hitting, packing a punch, durable, offensive heavy lifters. For 3 points per model.

They're now what they should always have been - somewhat survivable chaff that can still deal a lot of damage, but only if they survive long enough to do so without running away. The only change they need now is that the commissar ability should be a choice, not compulsory.

That's the thing though - this was applied to *all* infantry, not just Conscripts.

If it was just a rule given to Conscripts to justify their low cost, I'd be far less objectionable about it.


However, speaking as someone who never use Conscripts (just Infantry Squad), I feel rather annoyed that my Commissars are now a liability because one specific unit of infantry that I don't use was considered OP with them.

Lol. Are you guys sad/surprised that a 2 unit composition that almost every imperium soup list took got nerfed.

Give me a break

I think we are surprised that it wasn't the specific 2 unit composition, and was in fact essentially the entire backbone of the leadership for IG infantry armies whether or not they used conscripts.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Lol. Are you guys sad/surprised that a 2 unit composition that almost every imperium soup list took got nerfed.

Give me a break

No, but they are mad that one composition meant that one unit in the codex suddenly lost what little appeal it had outside one specific scenario. If they had nerfed the Conscript-Commissar interaction while preserving it as it was for everything else, people would be happy.

 vipoid wrote:

Niiru wrote:

This is what makes me kinda laugh a bit... everyone seems to think it was perfectly fine for conscripts (the cheapest, most worthless untrained standard humans the universe has to offer. One step above farmers with pitchforks) to be cheap, survivable, hard-hitting, packing a punch, durable, offensive heavy lifters. For 3 points per model.

They're now what they should always have been - somewhat survivable chaff that can still deal a lot of damage, but only if they survive long enough to do so without running away. The only change they need now is that the commissar ability should be a choice, not compulsory.

That's the thing though - this was applied to *all* infantry, not just Conscripts.

If it was just a rule given to Conscripts to justify their low cost, I'd be far less objectionable about it.


However, speaking as someone who never use Conscripts (just Infantry Squad), I feel rather annoyed that my Commissars are now a liability because one specific unit of infantry that I don't use was considered OP with them.

I understand your annoyance, they could have made it conscripts only, but I thought Infantry squads with a commissar would have to lose half their models to be in serious risk of losing one or two more, and they would have lost one before anyway from the friendly fire, so it doesn't seem -too- much different. (Except for the aforementioned compulsory reroll. I'll probably end up saying this a million times, but it really should be a choice!)

Niiru wrote:
I understand your annoyance, they could have made it conscripts only, but I thought Infantry squads with a commissar would have to lose half their models to be in serious risk of losing one or two more, and they would have lost one before anyway from the friendly fire, so it doesn't seem -too- much different. (Except for the aforementioned compulsory reroll. I'll probably end up saying this a million times, but it really should be a choice!)

That's the thing though - the compulsory reroll is a key factor in why the new rule is so atrocious. It means that Commissars can actually be a liability to an infantry squad.

 vipoid wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I understand your annoyance, they could have made it conscripts only, but I thought Infantry squads with a commissar would have to lose half their models to be in serious risk of losing one or two more, and they would have lost one before anyway from the friendly fire, so it doesn't seem -too- much different. (Except for the aforementioned compulsory reroll. I'll probably end up saying this a million times, but it really should be a choice!)

That's the thing though - the compulsory reroll is a key factor in why the new rule is so atrocious. It means that Commissars can actually be a liability to an infantry squad.

Agreed. Though if it makes you feel any better, I suspect this is unintentional. I'm sure with other similar rules, GW have always left it as being a choice. The wording on this I reckon is a mistake, typical GW not proof-reading their rules properly before printing. I'd suggest writing in the question, because they may well correct the FAQ wording. Would NOT be the first time this sort of thing has happened.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Lol. Are you guys sad/surprised that a 2 unit composition that almost every imperium soup list took got nerfed.

Give me a break

Conscripts invincibility to morale needed a nerf. The nerf is just a sucky, inelegant over-nerf.

It is shoddy rule-making, and it makes an iconic Guard character almost uselss. No one will miss running 150 imba conscripts. But commisars will be missed. A lot.

Niiru wrote:
Agreed. Though if it makes you feel any better, I suspect this is unintentional. I'm sure with other similar rules, GW have always left it as being a choice. The wording on this I reckon is a mistake, typical GW not proof-reading their rules properly before printing. I'd suggest writing in the question, because they may well correct the FAQ wording. Would NOT be the first time this sort of thing has happened.

It's possible, but even if it was changed I'm not sure that Commissars would be worthwhile for infantry. I mean, even without the reroll being compulsary, it can still end up costing you more guys (especially since the model the commissar killed is in addition to any morale losses).

Paying 31+pts to reduce morale losses on my infantry squads was a price I was prepared to pay.

Paying 31+pts to *maybe* reduce morale losses but often also with a chance to increase them . . . that's a lot less appealing.


On the other hand, Valhallan is looking more attractive.

pismakron wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Lol. Are you guys sad/surprised that a 2 unit composition that almost every imperium soup list took got nerfed.

Give me a break

Conscripts invincibility to morale needed a nerf. The nerf is just a sucky, inelegant over-nerf.

It is shoddy rule-making, and it makes an iconic Guard character almost uselss. No one will miss running 150 imba conscripts. But commisars will be missed. A lot.

The worst part is it didn't even change their invincibility.

Valhallan conscripts didn't change at all (because of their relic), a 15 point astrotelepath still can make 1 unit immune to morale, a 55 point inquisitor can do the same thing at the same time, and a 2 CP stratagem preserves them if the situation is dire.

What everyone else said about the commissar nerf is spot on. Something needed to be done for balance, that's true, but now you just won't see commissars or Yarrick on the table for anything other than fluffy matches, which is a real shame because they just started reappearing. For a couple of editions they've been vastly outclassed by priests, now they're irrelevant in most situations and a liability in others.

Disappointed that GW didn't think this through better. The Commissar is an iconic IG unit, it's on the fething codex cover and they just made them unplayable. Thanks.

Similarly, they've also made Send In The Next Wave totally pointless. Why pay reinforcement points for units that are not going to fill up troop slots to give you command points, and then force you to pay 2 CP to just bring in an identical unit as if they were reserves? This also could have been saved with some more thoughtful adjusting. If its too powerful, just make it 4 or 5 CPs. Expensive, but still situationally playable.

It is interesting how these changes affect Valhallans specifically. On one hand, their unique strategem is now garbage, but their relic is now the only thing with the old commissar ability (until they notice that oversight) and their regimental doctrines are that much more valuable for morale. Will be interesting to seek how this plays out.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Lol. Are you guys sad/surprised that a 2 unit composition that almost every imperium soup list took got nerfed.

Give me a break

I think if you look back, you'll see that most people are pretty even about this change. It's a nerf, but very foreseeable, if hamfisted one.

If you want to feel good about people crying, then feel free to, but I'm not sure that's what's actually happening.

 vipoid wrote:

Niiru wrote:
Agreed. Though if it makes you feel any better, I suspect this is unintentional. I'm sure with other similar rules, GW have always left it as being a choice. The wording on this I reckon is a mistake, typical GW not proof-reading their rules properly before printing. I'd suggest writing in the question, because they may well correct the FAQ wording. Would NOT be the first time this sort of thing has happened.

It's possible, but even if it was changed I'm not sure that Commissars would be worthwhile for infantry. I mean, even without the reroll being compulsary, it can still end up costing you more guys (especially since the model the commissar killed is in addition to any morale losses).

Paying 31+pts to reduce morale losses on my infantry squads was a price I was prepared to pay.

Paying 31+pts to *maybe* reduce morale losses but often also with a chance to increase them . . . that's a lot less appealing.


On the other hand, Valhallan is looking more attractive.

I will miss the morale boost from the commissar as much as I miss the convenience that combined squads gave us.
Valhallan doctrine may look as a fall-back option, but their unique stratagem has been severely restricted in use due to the need of setting aside reinforcement points. As Polonius said, Valhallan regiment goes from situationally good to bottom tier.

Yeah, the fact that is requires Reinforcement Points is disappointing, to say the least.

It just makes it an entirely pointless stratagem - since you'd be better off just buying the extra unit in the first place (which would have the added benefit of not costing you CPs).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Lol. Are you guys sad/surprised that a 2 unit composition that almost every imperium soup list took got nerfed.

Give me a break

Conscripts invincibility to morale needed a nerf. The nerf is just a sucky, inelegant over-nerf.

It is shoddy rule-making, and it makes an iconic Guard character almost uselss. No one will miss running 150 imba conscripts. But commisars will be missed. A lot.

The worst part is it didn't even change their invincibility.

Valhallan conscripts didn't change at all (because of their relic), a 15 point astrotelepath still can make 1 unit immune to morale, a 55 point inquisitor can do the same thing at the same time, and a 2 CP stratagem preserves them if the situation is dire.

Completely disagree.
Astropath and inquisitors can mime the effect of a commissar, but only on one unit at a time that has to be declared before your opponents turn. This works for 30 conscripts, it doesn't work for 150. Also, i don't think that both an astropath and an inquisitor can cast it, it's the same power with the same name.

I like this FAQ, it gave the commissars the role they should have according to the fluff. They are now good to keep troops in line as long as nothing major is coming theyr way, but only add to the chaos when morale is completely broken. You will still see commissars around to babysit your HWTs and small squads.

Mass conscripts is still a thing for Valhallan, which is something i'm fine with.

Looking on the bright side, deleting all of those obligatory commissars from my lists is freeing up a lot of Elites slots for some creativity there.

Well, guys, there is still a warlord trait which essentialy makes what pre-FAQ comissar did... just for one unit.

And IMHO that warlord trait should have been the comissard rule in the first place (i.e. comissar can "discipline" only one unit per turn with 1+up to d3 cassualties)

Well, given we still have Valhalla, conscipts aren't going anywhere... Comissars do. And that's a shame.

In the immortal parlance of PP, nerfing conscripts really opens up a lot of design space. If you still want fearless conscripts, you can. If you just want more durable squads against morale, there are plenty of ways, including the commissar.

On the whole though, this was a weird set of nerfs. I really feel that the strongest builds in the codex weren't going to be using the conscript hordes. Or, more accurately, the strongest builds that were nearly all AM, and not an imperial soup with AM for flavor. On the whole, while it's an undeniable power loss, none of the really powerful aspects of the new codex were nerfed, just stuff that was "gamey."

At then end of the day, this is a codex that can spam 152 T8, 11 Wound models that can move 5" and still fling 8.5 S8, AP2, d3 damage shots. Oh, and they have obsec. Or, you can fill your slots with 48 pt squads with a lascannon and two mortars, all of which re-roll ones to hit, and can get full twin linked with an order.

Oh, and we're also a codex that can easily bring 12+ Command points to a battle, while refunding a third of the CPs we spend, and gaining a CP on a third of all enemy strategems.

Guard now have to worry about people getting through their screens. The change is a good thing and brings guard WAY back into balance and makes conscripts not the unit you would see in almost every imperial list.

Power armor lists still have no way to get through 10 man squads that cost 40 pts. Maybe some other lists like Drukhari can really take advantage.

Martel732 wrote:
Power armor lists still have no way to get through 10 man squads that cost 40 pts. Maybe some other lists like Drukhari can really take advantage.

Yes they do. 10 men are very limited. Kill them all and there's a hole in the line. Conscripts covered rather more of the field and were harder to remove.

Guard is still standing as probably the strongest codex, but conscripts being taken out of the running is a big deal. Now I just have to fret over Alaitoc armies building an eternal minus 2

Anyone got any ideas on the best use of the tallarn stratagem now triple tank commander is out the window? A unit of russes is going to take up way too much space to be feasible, too readily blockable given the deployment restrictions.

I can tell you I stopped playing Drukhari till the codex drops because of a lack of ways to deal with hordes, so if you're implying that drukhari can deal with conscripts better than power armor armies I'd disagree. The power armor armies have lots of access to weapons like storm bolters, combi-bolters, and heavy bolters that put out lots of damage for very little cost while the only high rate of fire weapons drukhari have are disintegrators and those cost 30 points (with few units that can even take them) so they're incapable of dealing with the numbers you see in any horde list.

I think conscripts will still be solid even without commissar support since they still compare favorably to units like cultists are frequently used in tournament lists. You're still paying less for a model with a better save which is the more important stat for units like them. You won't them to take up as much table space as they can while absorbing as many hits as possible. They still handle that role quite admirably for their price.

I meant fast, cheap CC options.

 lessthanjeff wrote:


I think conscripts will still be solid even without commissar support since they still compare favorably to units like cultists are frequently used in tournament lists. You're still paying less for a model with a better save which is the more important stat for units like them. You won't them to take up as much table space as they can while absorbing as many hits as possible. They still handle that role quite admirably for their price.

I actually think that with Tide of Traitors, 4+ shooting and all of the buffs that you can give Poxwalkers, both are now superior to conscripts. That doesn't mean conscripts no longer have a place, but they're far from the best horde available now.

Also, if they were going to do this to commissars all along, it really would have been nice for them to not give them the nerfs they got in the codex. This is a ton of drawbacks for being just one point cheaper than normal guardsmen. May be time to go back to combined guard blobs.

 vipoid wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I understand your annoyance, they could have made it conscripts only, but I thought Infantry squads with a commissar would have to lose half their models to be in serious risk of losing one or two more, and they would have lost one before anyway from the friendly fire, so it doesn't seem -too- much different. (Except for the aforementioned compulsory reroll. I'll probably end up saying this a million times, but it really should be a choice!)

That's the thing though - the compulsory reroll is a key factor in why the new rule is so atrocious. It means that Commissars can actually be a liability to an infantry squad.

You know, like they can be in the background? Commissars have "accidents" for a reason and it's not because they're always known for their reasonable and compromising personalities.

With this nerf, it at least makes it where I feel like infantry costs are more in line. Part of the reason I felt guardsmen across the board needed a price increase was because the commissar was so insanely good. As it sits now without the ability to autopass morale all the time, they're much more vulnerable to morale and it allows for more counters, so their current cost feels a lot more fair. So with that out of the way lets talk about all the ways we can still ignore morale and make people froth at the mouth again

1. Insane Bravery. Obvious choice for conscripts. "But MrMoustaffa that's 2CPs! That's ridiculous!" This is IG. We have more CP's than anyone. I think you can live with 2 CP's a turn to ensure an out of position conscript squad holds its ground. And it's not like tourney play is going much longer than 3 or 4 turns anyways. With the proper relic and warlord trait you'll make a few of these back anyways.

2. Fight to the Death! Mainly for things like Ogryn, but it will also line up well with things like Valhallan conscripts.

3. Regiment Traits. Mainly Catachan and Mordian for obvious reasons, but there are other mechanics out there that help with Leadership as well. Regimental Standards in particular got a lot more utility now and a properly kitted command squad can still be useful and yet not immediately be shot off the board if kitted out right (I.E. Not just 3 plasma guns and a flag)

4.Regiment "extras". Big one here is the Valhallan Relic, the Mk 45 Bolt Pistol, which literally turns a Valhallan commander into the old style Commissar. You're essentially bringing Chenkov in this case, since this is similar to how he worked back in 5th. Mordians also get a trait that helps them, their warlord trait makes it where any model that flees from a unit within 6" of your warlord, on a +4 they do not flee. Essentially gives you the Valhallan trait in a bubble. There's also Draconian Disciplinarian which could probably be made to work with some forethought, although it's not quite as game changing in my opinion. Cadians have access to Kell who is a hideable regimental standard with a built in reroll, which will very nice for infantry squad gunlines.

5. Mental Fortitude. Obvious one, basically just a psychic source for insane bravery.

6. Commissar Tank. Again, another source of Leadership 9, which makes infantry squads very tough to shift.

7. Commissars. Yes, they still help. Properly spaced among conscript units they can make their points back in models saved by the morale buff in a turn or two depending on how many conscripts you have within his buff radius. No, he no longer turns conscripts into the bravest unit in the game but given how cheap he is at a measly 30 or so points, he only needs to keep 10 conscripts around in order to make his points back. While yes, this isn't amazing in and of itself, there is only so much deployment space on the table. Being able to take "more" conscripts on a smaller footprint by mitigating morale casualties will pay for itself, even if occasionally he'll kill an extra 1 or 2 to morale tests. Keep him near conscripts, away from infantry, and ideally in a Valhallan regiment, where the potential of extra damage is cut in half.



Ideally you will never rely on any 1 or 2 of these, in order to truly keep infantry around and bug people who thought IG were wrecked by the commissar nerf, you will need to use these in tandem to properly drive them crazy. Obviously not everyone has access to every trick, but with proper planning you can still come up with a hard to shift infantry force that will make the Emperor proud. It will also depend on how many conscript units you intend to run. 1 or 2 and you obviously don't need to use near as many tricks to keep them around as you would say starting the game with six 30 man units.

Conscripts can absolutely still be run to be useful, they're just a very annoying screen to shift that an opponent needs to dedicate time to kill. You know, what they're intended to be, a screen for your tanks and artillery. They're still so cheap that anyone dedicating enough firepower to kill them is spending far more points than the conscripts are worth to remove them, and they still screen turn 1 charges, which is all they really need to do at 3 points per man. They're nowhere near as powerful offensively now but they honestly never should have been in the first place.

An additional upside, at least for more casual players, is that in order to build an IG force with proper morale, you kind of need to commit to more of a proper IG army. Just trying to run a token soup force with some IG sprinkled in will not stick around nearly as effectively as an IG player who built his entire army up around his codex's strengths. Sucks for Imperium Tournament players but it's good news for Xenos and Chaos and hopefully will encourage a bit more variety.

Already wasn’t using conscripts, but I guess now I won’t ever use a commissar either. Thanks I guess? 30 points to *maybe* save one or two 4pt guys? Nah.

And a 2cp stratagem to use a unit I already paid for? Seriously?

It could have been worse I suppose.

Use a 40 pt psyker and make your conscripts immune to morale!

Psykers are the new commisars.