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 rhinoceraids wrote:
Use a 40 pt psyker and make your conscripts immune to morale!

Psykers are the new commisars.

One pysker per army is, most of the time, yes. However matched play limits each power to once a turn, so you can't do that on a full army.

Aye. I just run one squad of infantry. So its perfect in that situation.

Multiples....well. Yeah.

I used to take 2 Commissars in my 2k list. Guess now I can just take one more tooled up squad. Or another command squad with banner and Las Cannon.

 rhinoceraids wrote:
Use a 40 pt psyker and make your conscripts immune to morale!

Psykers are the new commisars.

But whose going to shoot that psyker if he perils

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:

 lessthanjeff wrote:


I think conscripts will still be solid even without commissar support since they still compare favorably to units like cultists are frequently used in tournament lists. You're still paying less for a model with a better save which is the more important stat for units like them. You won't them to take up as much table space as they can while absorbing as many hits as possible. They still handle that role quite admirably for their price.

I actually think that with Tide of Traitors, 4+ shooting and all of the buffs that you can give Poxwalkers, both are now superior to conscripts. That doesn't mean conscripts no longer have a place, but they're far from the best horde available now.

Also, if they were going to do this to commissars all along, it really would have been nice for them to not give them the nerfs they got in the codex. This is a ton of drawbacks for being just one point cheaper than normal guardsmen. May be time to go back to combined guard blobs.

If you want more output, then why not just take infantry squads? Same cost as a cultist, better leadership, better armor save, more weapon options, and more buffs from orders (make them catachan and you're better in melee too). You take conscripts because they're cheaper and more durable and when all you're trying to do is fill space on the board, block enemy units, and fill troop slots, the conscripts will do that better.

Poxwalkers I've found only work when you design an entire army around buffing them and then you're throwing all your points at making them usable rather than having them as just chaff to protect your important stuff. It becomes a list about poxwalkers and not a list about other elements that you're just throwing in poxwalkers as chaff and to fill slots. Sure, they have some things they can do better, but there are also some things they do worse and at twice the cost.

Commissars are all but useless now. Inquisitors are the answer. 55 points for a better LD buff and a different morale immunity psychic power than the primaris.

I hate that Commissars are trash, but I am happy to see GW being so fast at addressing issues in the game. They may have overreacted, but at least they reacted.

In my mind the purpose of a horde is to fill space and take punishment, while maybe killing somethings through weight of fire.

Cultists can blob up in large groups, shoot more accurately than conscripts and still teleport to another board edge as needed at some point in the game -- even out of combat and even replenishing nearly the entire squad.

Infantry squads can take more heavy weapons and stuff than cultists, but that isn't a horde function. That's a sit-and-shoot function. To even blob up to cultist levels takes 1-2 CPs.

And Poxwalkers, while more expensive, can fulfill the survivability portion of their horde mission better than conscripts as well. Orders only work on conscripts just 50% of the time, below the success rate of DG psychic buffs for poxwalkers, so I think its clear they're a more reliably effective horde too.

 crimsondave wrote:
Commissars are all but useless now. Inquisitors are the answer. 55 points for a better LD buff and a different morale immunity psychic power than the primaris.

I hate that Commissars are trash, but I am happy to see GW being so fast at addressing issues in the game. They may have overreacted, but at least they reacted.

They should have just mashed the nerf on conscripts. They’re the problem unit. Old commissars we’re fine for infantry squads.

 argonak wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
Commissars are all but useless now. Inquisitors are the answer. 55 points for a better LD buff and a different morale immunity psychic power than the primaris.

I hate that Commissars are trash, but I am happy to see GW being so fast at addressing issues in the game. They may have overreacted, but at least they reacted.

They should have just mashed the nerf on conscripts. They’re the problem unit. Old commissars we’re fine for infantry squads.

I agree, but it is what it is. IG is still far from the hot garbage it was in 7th. Scions are still the beat stick.

A Commissar is still just as useful to normal infantry squads as he was before.

I've never had a situation where a Commissar wasn't already killing the last man in a squad that got hit hard enough to actually use his Summary Execution before the nerf, and I seriously doubt it'll change things now.

I am hoping they change their stance on commissars in short order. If not, I don't think I'll see them in my opponents lists until 9th edition when they rework the moral system again.

I'm thinking of proposing a house rule for my gaming group as there are two IG players. Keeping the conscript 4+ order but making the failed moral test for commissars D3 kills for conscripts and keep the old rules for everything else.

Hope to playtest this houserule soon and see what/how others think about it.

And Boy am I glad I saw the Errata today. As I was about to buy three more squads of Guard Infantry because I was going to make a whole detachment built around send in the next wave. Shame really, as I wanted to play some fluffy guard lists of "attack move that way you meatbags!!"

Conscripts don't compete with Chaos cannon fodder they compete with 4 point infantry squads.

Commissar tank is pretty beefy when buffing regular infantry squads. LD9 is pretty solid on 10 man squads. The take morale tests on a D3 strategem is also very useful especially if the goal is.to save a special or heavy weapon.

The nerfing of commisars will teach players that the 40 point infantry squad is a really good unit.

 crimsondave wrote:
Commissars are all but useless now. Inquisitors are the answer. 55 points for a better LD buff and a different morale immunity psychic power than the primaris.

I hate that Commissars are trash, but I am happy to see GW being so fast at addressing issues in the game. They may have overreacted, but at least they reacted.

Is there a YMDC on this? Because as far as i know you can't cast the same power twice, even it comes from different psykers from different disciplines.

 Stus67 wrote:
A Commissar is still just as useful to normal infantry squads as he was before.

I've never had a situation where a Commissar wasn't already killing the last man in a squad that got hit hard enough to actually use his Summary Execution before the nerf, and I seriously doubt it'll change things now.

I lose 6-7 guys all the time in regular infantry squads. Pre-nerf, the Commissar guaranteed the lascannon/plasma gun would stick around, usually at the cost of the Sergeant. Now, the squad is an almost guaranteed wipe at 6-7 casualties with the new Commissar.

RogueApiary wrote:

 Stus67 wrote:
A Commissar is still just as useful to normal infantry squads as he was before.

I've never had a situation where a Commissar wasn't already killing the last man in a squad that got hit hard enough to actually use his Summary Execution before the nerf, and I seriously doubt it'll change things now.

I lose 6-7 guys all the time in regular infantry squads. Pre-nerf, the Commissar guaranteed the lascannon/plasma gun would stick around, usually at the cost of the Sergeant. Now, the squad is an almost guaranteed wipe at 6-7 casualties with the new Commissar.

Commissar tank makes 6 to 7 casualties a lot less scary.
Leadership on a D3 strategem stacks
Over say 4 tests on 4 turns that's only 5CP, plus the commissar tank makes 4 and 5 tests minimally risky.

 TheNightWillEnd wrote:
In my mind the purpose of a horde is to fill space and take punishment, while maybe killing somethings through weight of fire.

Cultists can blob up in large groups, shoot more accurately than conscripts and still teleport to another board edge as needed at some point in the game -- even out of combat and even replenishing nearly the entire squad.

Infantry squads can take more heavy weapons and stuff than cultists, but that isn't a horde function. That's a sit-and-shoot function. To even blob up to cultist levels takes 1-2 CPs.

And Poxwalkers, while more expensive, can fulfill the survivability portion of their horde mission better than conscripts as well. Orders only work on conscripts just 50% of the time, below the success rate of DG psychic buffs for poxwalkers, so I think its clear they're a more reliably effective horde too.

Why are you only looking at the viability as a horde? I was happy at my last tournament using chaos going 4-1 and I ran 60 cultists for it but they were all in 10 man units anyways. I don't bring them expecting them to get any damage out at all (in fact, I even had two units shoot and charge a single unit of scouts and come out the losers of that bout) but I am happy when some wounds are snuck in. Over the 5 rounds of my last event, I only used tide of traitors once. It's alright, but as many of you have commented about conscripts, the unit rarely survives any attention anyways and the cultists have an even worse save making it less likely they'll do so either. I bring them to deny reserves coming in around me, keep units back from my more valuable units, and build lots of cp's for other units to use. In those comparisons, the astra militarum troop options still come out significantly ahead with a combination of more damage, more durability, and more numbers for the same or less cost so that I can buy other fun stuff to keep in the back lines too. I would love to have cultists come out the same as either of the two troop options available to astra militarum.

I'm not only looking at their viability as a horde, but that is what I am talking about right now. Sure, infantry squads are better than cultists for shooting and durability, that's not my point.

I'm saying if you want to run hordes for board control, bubblewrapping, and swarming some stuff, conscripts are now inferior to cultists and poxwalkers.

I am going to try some more MSU builds, but it sounds like its going to be rather annoying. You have to spam officers or use relics to get enough orders for all of the units, eliminating a ton of efficiency there and individual infantry squads are still imperfect at the conscript role.

Another point is that I started taking a combined army big blobs and tanks because I thought it looked fluffy and cinematic on the battlefield. To me, that's what an IG army should look like, and what distinguished the army from the standard 40k faction that has a bunch of 5-10-man units running around.

It feels like most of the conscript abuse on was happening on the competitive scene by imperial soup players rather than core IG folks, and the fact that GW responded by just nerfing a couple of IG units to death and undermining pure IG play styles is frustrating.

Spoletta wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
Commissars are all but useless now. Inquisitors are the answer. 55 points for a better LD buff and a different morale immunity psychic power than the primaris.

I hate that Commissars are trash, but I am happy to see GW being so fast at addressing issues in the game. They may have overreacted, but at least they reacted.

Is there a YMDC on this? Because as far as i know you can't cast the same power twice, even it comes from different psykers from different disciplines.

How can it be the same power if it's from a different discipline?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RogueApiary wrote:

 Stus67 wrote:
A Commissar is still just as useful to normal infantry squads as he was before.

I've never had a situation where a Commissar wasn't already killing the last man in a squad that got hit hard enough to actually use his Summary Execution before the nerf, and I seriously doubt it'll change things now.

I lose 6-7 guys all the time in regular infantry squads. Pre-nerf, the Commissar guaranteed the lascannon/plasma gun would stick around, usually at the cost of the Sergeant. Now, the squad is an almost guaranteed wipe at 6-7 casualties with the new Commissar.

This is the problem. The nerf is harder on multiple regular squads than it is on the "problem" that is conscripts. It's easier to mitigate the nerf using fewer big blobs than it is using multiple 10 man squads.

 crimsondave wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
Commissars are all but useless now. Inquisitors are the answer. 55 points for a better LD buff and a different morale immunity psychic power than the primaris.

I hate that Commissars are trash, but I am happy to see GW being so fast at addressing issues in the game. They may have overreacted, but at least they reacted.

Is there a YMDC on this? Because as far as i know you can't cast the same power twice, even it comes from different psykers from different disciplines.

How can it be the same power if it's from a different discipline?

Having the same effect description and name is a good start.
I mean if they wanted it to be a different power, i'm sure that GW wouldn't have problems using a different name, instead they used that exact same name which tells us something.

No, i defintely wouldn't allow this at the table.

Spoletta wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:
Commissars are all but useless now. Inquisitors are the answer. 55 points for a better LD buff and a different morale immunity psychic power than the primaris.

I hate that Commissars are trash, but I am happy to see GW being so fast at addressing issues in the game. They may have overreacted, but at least they reacted.

Is there a YMDC on this? Because as far as i know you can't cast the same power twice, even it comes from different psykers from different disciplines.

How can it be the same power if it's from a different discipline?

Having the same effect description and name is a good start.
I mean if they wanted it to be a different power, i'm sure that GW wouldn't have problems using a different name, instead they used that exact same name which tells us something.

No, i defintely wouldn't allow this at the table.

Then why have different disciplines? What's the point?

I don't get why they changed Commissars the way they did. I mean OK if they made the morale ignore happen once per unit per game, that's a good tradeoff. I get that, but only once per unit per game then also only lets you re-roll? Just doesn't make sense.

Guys, conscripts don't have to be nerfed if you are willing to take them under the Valhallan regiment.

They have a Relic bolt pistol called "Pietrov's Mk 45" which has the following ability:

" Friendly VALHALLAN units within 6" of the bearer can never lose more than one model as a result of any single failed morale test"


Problem solved. Conscripts shall live forever!!!!!!!

 crimsondave wrote:


Then why have different disciplines? What's the point?

The fact that there is one power in common between a codex discipline and the index discipline of a minor faction doesn't make those disciplines useless.

Spoletta wrote:

 crimsondave wrote:


Then why have different disciplines? What's the point?

The fact that there is one power in common between a codex discipline and the index discipline of a minor faction doesn't make those disciplines useless.

They actually are different powers as they are worded completely differently. The only thing the same between them is the name.

It's literally not the same power.

Indeed looking at it again there are some differences. So now the problem is in defining what identifies a power, if it is the name or something else. Definitely out topic here though, maybe i should open a YMDC on it.

slobulous wrote:
Guys, conscripts don't have to be nerfed if you are willing to take them under the Valhallan regiment.

They have a Relic bolt pistol called "Pietrov's Mk 45" which has the following ability:

" Friendly VALHALLAN units within 6" of the bearer can never lose more than one model as a result of any single failed morale test"


Problem solved. Conscripts shall live forever!!!!!!!

You can also use the 2 CP stratagem or even the 1CP guard stratagem to reduce it to a d3. Or you can make the commissar your warlord and get his kick butt warlord trait.

Its the rest of the guard that commissars are screwed for, which most likely was the opposite of GW's intent.

Conscripts are the problem. Nerf conscripts.

 argonak wrote:

slobulous wrote:
Guys, conscripts don't have to be nerfed if you are willing to take them under the Valhallan regiment.

They have a Relic bolt pistol called "Pietrov's Mk 45" which has the following ability:

" Friendly VALHALLAN units within 6" of the bearer can never lose more than one model as a result of any single failed morale test"


Problem solved. Conscripts shall live forever!!!!!!!

You can also use the 2 CP stratagem or even the 1CP guard stratagem to reduce it to a d3. Or you can make the commissar your warlord and get his kick butt warlord trait.

Its the rest of the guard that commissars are screwed for, which most likely was the opposite of GW's intent.

Conscripts are the problem. Nerf conscripts.

To be fair Commissars were a wee bit too good for their points cost. Let's not try to deny here that we functionally had the best morale mechanic in the game tied to an aura ability on a 31 pt model who had the "cost" of shooting one of the cheapest infantry models in the game any time you wanted to use him with a squad.

Commissars did deserve a nerf, they just didn't deserve this.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 argonak wrote:

slobulous wrote:
Guys, conscripts don't have to be nerfed if you are willing to take them under the Valhallan regiment.

They have a Relic bolt pistol called "Pietrov's Mk 45" which has the following ability:

" Friendly VALHALLAN units within 6" of the bearer can never lose more than one model as a result of any single failed morale test"


Problem solved. Conscripts shall live forever!!!!!!!

You can also use the 2 CP stratagem or even the 1CP guard stratagem to reduce it to a d3. Or you can make the commissar your warlord and get his kick butt warlord trait.

Its the rest of the guard that commissars are screwed for, which most likely was the opposite of GW's intent.

Conscripts are the problem. Nerf conscripts.

To be fair Commissars were a wee bit too good for their points cost. Let's not try to deny here that we functionally had the best morale mechanic in the game tied to an aura ability on a 31 pt model who had the "cost" of shooting one of the cheapest infantry models in the game any time you wanted to use him with a squad.

Commissars did deserve a nerf, they just didn't deserve this.

Well Tyranids Synapse rule let's you autopass a moral test when you are within 8" of a model with that rule. I think that's better

 lash92 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 argonak wrote:

slobulous wrote:
Guys, conscripts don't have to be nerfed if you are willing to take them under the Valhallan regiment.

They have a Relic bolt pistol called "Pietrov's Mk 45" which has the following ability:

" Friendly VALHALLAN units within 6" of the bearer can never lose more than one model as a result of any single failed morale test"


Problem solved. Conscripts shall live forever!!!!!!!

You can also use the 2 CP stratagem or even the 1CP guard stratagem to reduce it to a d3. Or you can make the commissar your warlord and get his kick butt warlord trait.

Its the rest of the guard that commissars are screwed for, which most likely was the opposite of GW's intent.

Conscripts are the problem. Nerf conscripts.

To be fair Commissars were a wee bit too good for their points cost. Let's not try to deny here that we functionally had the best morale mechanic in the game tied to an aura ability on a 31 pt model who had the "cost" of shooting one of the cheapest infantry models in the game any time you wanted to use him with a squad.

Commissars did deserve a nerf, they just didn't deserve this.

Well Tyranids Synapse rule let's you autopass a moral test when you are within 8" of a model with that rule. I think that's better

But tyranid synapse means if you are out of range you can only shoot the nearest target as well also we don't have orders like FRF/SRF or access to rerolls to blow our dps into the stratosphere. Our best shooting swarm unit costs 4 pts each with a 12" str 4 assault 1 gun or 8 pts with an 18" str 4 assault 3 gun and can be taken in a unit up to 30. Points/range/dps wise it's not really comparable. We have one unit that can buff/heal Termigaunts to reroll 1's to hit and replace up to 10 dead basic weapons per turn but he costs 250+pts and dies fairly easily to heavy weapons.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 argonak wrote:

slobulous wrote:
Guys, conscripts don't have to be nerfed if you are willing to take them under the Valhallan regiment.

They have a Relic bolt pistol called "Pietrov's Mk 45" which has the following ability:

" Friendly VALHALLAN units within 6" of the bearer can never lose more than one model as a result of any single failed morale test"


Problem solved. Conscripts shall live forever!!!!!!!

You can also use the 2 CP stratagem or even the 1CP guard stratagem to reduce it to a d3. Or you can make the commissar your warlord and get his kick butt warlord trait.

Its the rest of the guard that commissars are screwed for, which most likely was the opposite of GW's intent.

Conscripts are the problem. Nerf conscripts.

To be fair Commissars were a wee bit too good for their points cost. Let's not try to deny here that we functionally had the best morale mechanic in the game tied to an aura ability on a 31 pt model who had the "cost" of shooting one of the cheapest infantry models in the game any time you wanted to use him with a squad.

Commissars did deserve a nerf, they just didn't deserve this.

Orks get their LD to be their unit count. Most other armies don't care about LD because they're elites running in tiny minimum size squads. My marines will at their worst have a 10% chance of losing their last man in a 5 man squad, and that's rare. Them whining about how morale doesn't effect IG is hypocritical, because it doesn't effect most of them either. Ultramarines should never lose a man, because they've got LD 9. You have to lose all 4 guys, then roll two sixes in a row.