Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**necron99**

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Keep in mind for my advice I do not play in a very competitive meta, so I actually tone down my lists. I don't take intentionally bad ones, but I do try to tone down things like plasma spam. For example, I no longer run conscripts. Not because they're bad or anything, but because they make the game far too easy and no one at my store has the tools to fight them. So you'll see me talk about things like having to counter charge because I don't have a cheap conscript screen to eat the charge in the first place.

That's funny...my meta's the exact and complete opposite. If you don't bring your A game list and play perfectly you will get steam rolled. They're great guys but good lord do I take a beating

**Invinciblebug**

Made a little excel document comparing the damage per points of various 5 man squads of Scions. The layout is a bit messy so the readability isn't great but there's lots of interesting info. (edited to add more than just Scions since)
I've compared the wounds caused against the pts cost of a Scions Squad vs various targets.
I've assumed a 5 man squad with a plasma pistol and 2 special weapons that deepstruck the same turn at 9-12'' range. (See the color coded cells)

Some nice finds:
HSVG are the most pts efficient vs light infantry (guard, firewarriors, etc)
Plasmaguns are the most pts efficient vs heavy infantry(Primaris, Nobs, Terminators, etc)
Meltaguns are the most efficient vs vehicles (Russes, Predators, etc)

It's good to see that with the nerfed plasmaguns each weapon could have it's place (except for the GL of course).

note: The values against units with either lots of wounds or just one wound are pretty much perfect. However melta vs units with just a couple of wounds gets quite complicated and thus isn't entirely accurate. Plasma is also not quite correct vs units with uneven numbers of wounds, quite significantly so vs 3 wound units such as nobs.

**Resipsa131**

Quick question; Does the Scout Sentinel stratagem that allows you to move 2d6 in the shooting phase allow you to move within 1 inch of an enemy unit, therefore negating the charge mechanic and put you in position to fight in the fight phase? I tried this strategem in a recent game an my opponent said it applied to all movement. We ended up disallowing it and he killed me with lascannons in his next shooting phase.

**MrMoustaffa**

necron99 wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:

Keep in mind for my advice I do not play in a very competitive meta, so I actually tone down my lists. I don't take intentionally bad ones, but I do try to tone down things like plasma spam. For example, I no longer run conscripts. Not because they're bad or anything, but because they make the game far too easy and no one at my store has the tools to fight them. So you'll see me talk about things like having to counter charge because I don't have a cheap conscript screen to eat the charge in the first place.

That's funny...my meta's the exact and complete opposite. If you don't bring your A game list and play perfectly you will get steam rolled. They're great guys but good lord do I take a beating

What kind of army do you run?

My main issue is I run almost pure infantry. For a fairly new playerbase like my store has, Imperial Guard infantry are a very tough nut to crack. I don't want to reopen the can of worms that happened in the General Discussions but Imperial Guardsmen are insanely good value point for point and when you've got between 100-150 running around with proper officer support even at a 1000pts that's a difficult thing to beat without tailoring. Add in that there are very few efficient anti infantry counters, especially for index armies, and you have my problem. Tanks have counters, but every infantry counter I've seen so far has been underwhelming. The only things that really bother me are Raven guard tactics and maybe guilleman if he gets first turn. Oh, and IG, they're pretty good too

I'm actually picking up more tanks for this reason. Tones down my infantry numbers and Leman Russe's are much easier for new players to understand and fight. Also provides a mix of targets so when someone brings AT they're not screwed like they would be with my pure guardsmen lists.

**daedalus**

Resipsa131 wrote:
Quick question; Does the Scout Sentinel stratagem that allows you to move 2d6 in the shooting phase allow you to move within 1 inch of an enemy unit, therefore negating the charge mechanic and put you in position to fight in the fight phase? I tried this strategem in a recent game an my opponent said it applied to all movement. We ended up disallowing it and he killed me with lascannons in his next shooting phase.

RAW, it kinda looks like it would because you're doing it during the shooting phase, and page 177 says that "When you move a model in the Movement phase, it may not be moved within 1" of any enemy models."

Personally, I think it's Not Nice (TM) and that this is a Reason We Can't Have Nice Things.

**RogueApiary**

I've had a lot of success running a pure MT battalion alongside my Guard Brigade, the extra overcharged shots on 6's is surprisingly helpful, especially combined with the standard Take Aim and Laurels of Command stacking Elimination Protocols. With Inspired tactics and good rolls, you can get three squads rerolling 1's to hit, and reroll all wounds on monsters/vehicles generating extra shots on 6's.

**necron99**

MrMoustaffa wrote:

What kind of army do you run?

Dusted off my guard when 8E hit because it looked like tanks were going to be back in vogue which made me happy. Didn't have as much as I wanted - I had to bolt on other stuff that I did have unit wise. So, yeah, not necessarily the most competitive but I was building towards it.

In my meta you definitely don't want to have all your eggs in one or two baskets. I had a shadowsword as the centerpiece during the index days and he rarely made it past turn 2. But yeah like I said my current list is a work in progress and it doesn't help that GW is literally out of everything IG related. I was starting to invest in the getting started kits in case I wanted to start playing a heavy russ list and then out-of-stock. Along with bassies and manticores. I have them just not as many as I'd like.

Right now I'm looking at a combo of conscripts footslogging backed up with earth shaker batteries, manticores, wyverns, mortars and plasma wielding scions dropping out of the sky. Sadly my business has kept me busy with Christmas coming up so I haven't been able to play at all since the codex dropped :(

**vipoid**

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Keep in mind for my advice I do not play in a very competitive meta, so I actually tone down my lists. I don't take intentionally bad ones, but I do try to tone down things like plasma spam. For example, I no longer run conscripts. Not because they're bad or anything, but because they make the game far too easy and no one at my store has the tools to fight them. So you'll see me talk about things like having to counter charge because I don't have a cheap conscript screen to eat the charge in the first place.

#1

Typical "platoon" looks like this

X4 infantry squads. Usually a 50/50 autocannon/lascannon and plasma, bolter. If I have models voxes as well
X2 company commanders, loadout varies depending on doctrine. Cadians tend to have things like bolters and plasma pistols, Catachans will have Powerfists, etc.( I use 2 right now because I have a mixed regiment and need 2 HQ's per batallion. Once I get more stuff painted this will probably be dropped to 1)
X1 command squad with a standard. Loadout varies, but I traditionally give them short ranged weapons like meltas or flamers and use them to counterattack. Heavy weapons and plasma make them too much of a target.
X1 commissar with at least a power weapon, sometimes a fist depending on my mood.
X1 vet squad with a ride and close quarters weapons like shotguns and meltas with a heavy flamer. Tauroxes are good assault vehicles while Chimera s work better for counterattack.

Sometimes I run heavy weapon squads against newer players and remove my heavy weapons from the infantry squads so new players can learn target priority. Other than as mortar/heavy bolter platforms I really don't care for them, way too fragile. I've also considered special weapon squads but normally find myself just taking vets instead.

#2 additional attack per astra militarum model. He doubles your CQC effectiveness of your base infantry for barely the cost of a squad, but the main reason you bring him is to buff characters. Having him roam around with a bunch of commissars and officers and he makes them way more scary on the charge. Not only that, he's thematic and it just looks cool to see them running around. This leads into number 3

#3 Guard characters are way nastier than their cost would suggest in close combat. I've seen even 2 or 3 face down an enemy squad for a turn and hold a flank to win a game, and they can often kill their cost in enemy models in my experience. Usually this is a desperation tactic but it is a handy trick to have especially for the objective card missions. Some require killing things in CQC and since I don't own Ogryn or Crusaders theyre my next best option. They're no khorne beserkers or anything, but usually what happens is say something like genestealers charge in and crush the first line. You pull back survivors, fire into the genestealers point blank, and then realize there's still a few standing. You can't allow these units to survive because they'll wreck another unit or tie up tanks, so your only option at that point is a counter charge. Nobody really expects IG to take the fight to them so usually they're in easy charge distance for you too. Even if you don't kill the target, you've stolen his initiative, meaning that he's tied up going into his turn and he doesn't get to charge you. This doesn't work against superheavies or jump units obviously but against things like genestealers and Beserkers it can mean the difference between a turn 3 win or a turn 4 loss. Keep In mind I usually end up in this situation because I don't run conscripts.

#4 Accidents? Catachans can't help it if Commissars don't need their advice Although I have one commissar I run with mine, he's earned the right to fight with them after all of the dumb things he's taken on in assault and won

Thanks for that. I always enjoy reading how others structure their infantry armies.

You know, it's silly but I never really considered the benefits of priests in terms of buffing IG characters. That's a really good point.

You've also made me want to be more gung-ho with my characters.

**MrMoustaffa**

Don't go too crazy, keep in mind the kind of stuff I tend to charge them into is glass cannon units. Things like Beserkers or Genestealers that hit like a truck but aren't particularly durable. They'll have a rough go of it against things like Plague Marines or Monstrous creatures most of the time.

**Rpant**

anyone running the steel legion?

i have twelve squads and wondering if they are worth it now.

don't see the stratagym for getting back into the box after shooting.

have always played iron fist squads but not sure how this will work this edition

**vipoid**

Rpant wrote:
anyone running the steel legion?

i have twelve squads and wondering if they are worth it now.

don't see the stratagym for getting back into the box after shooting.

have always played iron fist squads but not sure how this will work this edition

I made this list recently:

Spoiler:

I haven't had a chance to play it yet though.

It's not a stratagem that lets you get back in your transports after shooting - it's an order (p86 in the codex).

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the faq is out:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/22/new-faqs-and-errata-for-the-astra-militarum-and-beyond-oct-22gw-homepage-post-1/

To summarise:

The Good:
- Master of Command now works properly.

The bad:
- Take Cover only works on Infantry.
- The Dagger of Tu’Sakh can now only be taken by Infantry Officers.
- Ogryn Bodygards can now only take wounds for Infantry.
- Commissars of all types are now utterly worthless.
- It's been clarified that, yes, Send in the Next Wave really is that crap.
- Draconian Discipline is garbage for everything except babysitting Conscripts.

The only things here I really don't like are the changes to Commissars and the fact that Send in the Next Wave uses RPs.

**Fishborne**

I played this 100 PL list and had a blast against a blood angels player and an Ad Mech Mars player :

Spoiler:

I might trade out the flamers in the special weapon squads for grenade launchers because once they got out of the tank on an objective they were out of the fight.

**Polonius**

New FAQ is up... and it's not good. Big nerfs to a lot of the fun interactions we saw coming, plus the final death blow for conscript/commissars.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/22/new-faqs-and-errata-for-the-astra-militarum-and-beyond-oct-22gw-homepage-post-1/

conscripts aren't dead, but aren't a viable heavy lifter anymore. They are back to pure chaff.

Commissars aren't dead, but are now just one tool among many for managing morale. (side note.. anybody want to buy some commissars?)

The Ambush nerf makes sense, Send in the Next wave does not. (I can pay two CP and full points to bring back a dead unit in my deployment zone? Hard pass). Valhallans went from being solid, albeit a step below Cadia/Catachan/Tallarn to joining Mordia and Vostroya in niche army build hell.

Take Cover can only affect infantry, which makes our tanks more fragile (especially without Ogryn bodyguards).

On the whole, while some of the stuff was foreseeable (Ogryn hyperloop, Ambush) others are surprising (summary execution) and some are just baffling (send in the next wave).

**Unit1126PLL**

Conscripts are still viable if you want to play them though. You just have to finegal a bit more.

**Polonius**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Conscripts are still viable if you want to play them though. You just have to finegal a bit more.

Oh, absolutely, but they aren't a high durability, decent offensive output unit like they were under the index. 20 of them can still be an effective screen, even if they'll be lucky to survive a dedicated attempt to wipe them out.

**vipoid**

Polonius wrote:
Commissars aren't dead

Sorry but they really are.

**gungo**

vipoid wrote:
Polonius wrote:
Commissars aren't dead

Sorry but they really are.

you are wrong

Considering conscripts are ld4 and a commissar was the only way to substantially increase thier leadership anyway. Commissars are pretty much required for conscripts still. Even if you take catachan (+1 ld) and platoon banner(+1 ld), ld 6 means you have a chance losing models to morale with even 1 casualty. A commissar makes that same unit ld 10 and thus not only can you reroll a bad morale roll you need to take 5 casualties and roll a 6 twice on morale to lose a casualty. Odds are you need to take 8-9 casualties before you lose a model for morale near a commissar. And no I would never take a commissar for a 10 man unit with ld7 (8 if catachan)already.

But if you take conscripts (and to a lesser degree combined squads) commissars are a massive morale mitigation. The main point of commissars is spreading that ld8/9 around especially to ld4 and ld6 units. I guess people will finally learn why leadership matters this edition and why all those negative leadership abilities hurt so bad.

**Polonius**

vipoid wrote:
Polonius wrote:
Commissars aren't dead

Sorry but they really are.

They still have a Leadership aura, so they'll see limited use in specific builds. If you run a Cadian gunline, you have a ton of three model, LD6 heavy weapon squads. the commissars LD8 makes them immune to any morale losses. It's not a bad use of a 31pt character.

But they're not going to be auto includes in lists (although, with all the LD buffs int eh codex and the nerf to conscripts, I was dropping them already).

They've gone from putting three in a touranemnt list to maybe having a few in a large casual list.

**Unit1126PLL**

Though if you're running a conscript army, perhaps Valhallan would be better.

Their relic is unchanged so you can still make one of your officers an Oldissar and you still get at least 1 unit to autopass morale with a astrotelepath (though there is counterplay here and imo that's good), same thing with an Inquisitor, and same thing again for 2 CP.

**Jkbulldogg**

Dissapointed by the FAQ. Conscripts went from being a cheap but survivable unit that could pack a nice punch on the battlefield to a somewhat decent screening unit.

**gungo**

Polonius wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Polonius wrote:
Commissars aren't dead

Sorry but they really are.

They still have a Leadership aura, so they'll see limited use in specific builds. If you run a Cadian gunline, you have a ton of three model, LD6 heavy weapon squads. the commissars LD8 makes them immune to any morale losses. It's not a bad use of a 31pt character.

But they're not going to be auto includes in lists (although, with all the LD buffs int eh codex and the nerf to conscripts, I was dropping them already).

They've gone from putting three in a touranemnt list to maybe having a few in a large casual list.

There isn't a ton of ld increasing abilities. You get catachan near an officer (+1) and banner (+1) and other then that commissar was the biggest boost to ld. But as you said he majority of the guard models are ld6 (or conscripts ld4). This means even with a single casualty and a bad roll on morale you are losing models to morale.
You can take draconian discipline but it's likely not worth losing the other traits
You can play vahallan with the gun relic but it's an awful regiment compared to Cadian and catachan.
People still won't use banners because it's a plasmagun in a command squad slot

So expect a lot of catachan armies (+1 ld) and if they are using a lot of HWT (as they should) and a unit of conscripts it is in their best interest to include at least 1 commissar to make those units basically immune to morale. And as prevalent as negative leadership abilities are expect commissars to help vs that tactic as well.

**Aenarian**

Q: Can Death Korps of Krieg, Elysian Drop Troops or Renegades and Heretics Detachments use any of the Regiment-specific rules (Doctrines, Orders, Stratagems, Warlord Traits, etc.) in Codex: Astra Militarum?
A: No. Instead these units use the bespoke abilities and Orders that are described in Imperial Armour – Index: Forces of the Astra Militarum.

Well bugger me, can't they also explicitly say whether or not we're allowed to use the general rules from the book?

Anyway, it's nice to see that we got a quick FAQ that put us on roughly the same level as the codex.

**rhinoceraids**

Re-reading summary execution. Still confused with it.

Looks like Ill be running a banehammer loaded up with bullgryns as a tallaran supremecy det. 3 psykers. Should be a good time.

**vipoid**

gungo wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Polonius wrote:
Commissars aren't dead

Sorry but they really are.

you are wrong

Considering conscripts are ld4 and a commissar was the only way to substantially increase thier leadership anyway. Commissars are pretty much required for conscripts still. Even if you take catachan (+1 ld) and platoon banner(+1 ld), ld 6 means you have a chance losing models to morale with even 1 casualty. A commissar makes that same unit ld 10 and thus not only can you reroll a bad morale roll you need to take 5 casualties and roll a 6 twice on morale to lose a casualty. Odds are you need to take 8-9 casualties before you lose a model for morale near a commissar. And no I would never take a commissar for a 10 man unit with ld7 (8 if catachan)already.

You seem to have missed the part where rerolling morale isn't optional. Have fun rolling a 1 or 2 for morale and then not only being forced to reroll it but having to kill an additional model for the privilege.

**daedalus**

gungo wrote:

you are wrong

Considering conscripts are ld4 and a commissar was the only way to substantially increase thier leadership anyway. Commissars are pretty much required for conscripts still. Even if you take catachan (+1 ld) and platoon banner(+1 ld), ld 6 means you have a chance losing models to morale with even 1 casualty. A commissar makes that same unit ld 10 and thus not only can you reroll a bad morale roll you need to take 5 casualties and roll a 6 twice on morale to lose a casualty. Odds are you need to take 8-9 casualties before you lose a model for morale near a commissar. And no I would never take a commissar for a 10 man unit with ld7 (8 if catachan)already.

But if you take conscripts (and to a lesser degree combined squads) commissars are a massive morale mitigation. The main point of commissars is spreading that ld8/9 around especially to ld4 and ld6 units. I guess people will finally learn why leadership matters this edition and why all those negative leadership abilities hurt so bad.

Crap. I forgot about the leadership thing they have. Okay, need to lose 11 conscripts before the commissar is on average hurting you more than helping you.

**Fishborne**

BS 3+ within 24" heavy 2 vanquisher? Yes please!

The commissar rule makes sense background wise... but im going to miss my lascannon heavy weapon team being the only survivor from a shooting phase.

**gungo**

vipoid wrote:
gungo wrote:
vipoid wrote:
Polonius wrote:
Commissars aren't dead

Sorry but they really are.

you are wrong

Considering conscripts are ld4 and a commissar was the only way to substantially increase thier leadership anyway. Commissars are pretty much required for conscripts still. Even if you take catachan (+1 ld) and platoon banner(+1 ld), ld 6 means you have a chance losing models to morale with even 1 casualty. A commissar makes that same unit ld 10 and thus not only can you reroll a bad morale roll you need to take 5 casualties and roll a 6 twice on morale to lose a casualty. Odds are you need to take 8-9 casualties before you lose a model for morale near a commissar. And no I would never take a commissar for a 10 man unit with ld7 (8 if catachan)already.

You seem to have missed the part where rerolling morale isn't optional. Have fun rolling a 1 or 2 for morale and then not only being forced to reroll it but having to kill an additional model for the privilege.

you seem to miss that part that you need to FAIL morale to reroll...

**daedalus**

gungo wrote:
you seem to miss that part that you need to FAIL morale to reroll...

Which happens 50% of the time that you lose 5 of the most reviled and despised T3 Sv5+ models in the game that anyone not IG pathologically fixates as literally THE reason they can't win....

**Razerous**

vipoid wrote:
You seem to have missed the part where rerolling morale isn't optional. Have fun rolling a 1 or 2 for morale and then not only being forced to reroll it but having to kill an additional model for the privilege.

You only re-roll a failed morale test.. so rolling a 1 or a 2 would usually pass, right?

Personally I'm glad I removed the Commissar in lieu of a Psyker... I'm guessing the morale power is golden now?

**Niiru**

Jkbulldogg wrote:Dissapointed by the FAQ. Conscripts went from being a cheap but survivable unit that could pack a nice punch on the battlefield to a somewhat decent screening unit.

Polonius wrote:
Oh, absolutely, but they aren't a high durability, decent offensive output unit like they were under the index. 20 of them can still be an effective screen, even if they'll be lucky to survive a dedicated attempt to wipe them out.

Polonius wrote:
conscripts aren't dead, but aren't a viable heavy lifter anymore. They are back to pure chaff.

This is what makes me kinda laugh a bit... everyone seems to think it was perfectly fine for conscripts (the cheapest, most worthless untrained standard humans the universe has to offer. One step above farmers with pitchforks) to be cheap, survivable, hard-hitting, packing a punch, durable, offensive heavy lifters. For 3 points per model.

They're now what they should always have been - somewhat survivable chaff that can still deal a lot of damage, but only if they survive long enough to do so without running away. The only change they need now is that the commissar ability should be a choice, not compulsory.