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There are a few things that needed to be understood first.

The tournament conditions are as follows:

"A few conditions for the tournament. 1750 points. Must bring an Army list. Include special rules"

"Armies Must be battle forged. Page 117 in rule book. Armies Must be based on GW approved printed codicies only.
List from online sources are not permitted.
Armies Must contain Primary detachment .
Page 122 based on Combined Arms Detachment (CAD)may contain as many Allied Detachments as points permit.
Fortifications & Lords of War units May Not be taken for this tourney..Formations (page 121) May Not be used in any form"

The last one was labeled as just a 1750pt tournament no restrictions.
I'm interested in what you think the possible ramifications are with the above rule set.
I let the person know why this is not a good idea but a could use more reasons.

Now, the reason for this is due to the fact that the person who runs the tournament is not liking the advent of few but large model armies.
Also the person has likes to label most competitive list as "cheese", most formations fall into the category for him.
But if I talk about that then there will be a lot of salt thrown.

What the local community has suggested is the ITC tournament format several times over the course of a year but nothing has been done.
In fact, people have tried bring lists that take advantage of the way he sets up his tournament in attempt to make him understand what we are talking about.
But this has only led to salt being thrown at the people pointing out the red flags and animosity amongst the local community.
The other thing we have tried is another tournament with the ITC format.
This worked great the first time as it was publicized and the people were looking for something balanced.
But the second time, no one really showed up.
This was due to the other organizer noticing that more people showed up in that tournament then his player turnout and with his close connection with the store owner, few people actually knew there was a tournament.

So it comes down to this, should the matter be pressed harder and hope that he turns around?
Will just trying and hoping that by ignoring the issue will eventually make it better?
Or maybe, will the coming of 8th make everyone hold hands and walk into the sunset?
I'm open for new ideas on the issue.


Btw, yes my account was created today.
This is due to how long this has been going on for and its been going downhill and I would rather have more heads on the issue then have the local community tear itself apart.

We had a similiar issue.
I was the only one willing to do anything, By do anything I mean I went to the store manager, told her what he did, how it affected the community and how I will likely not come back

Take this with the knowledge that I HATE tournaments of any kind (I prefer just casual play, regardless of system).

If the organizer is putting together events that the community dislikes, then the only real counter is for someone to step up and begin presenting events that the community does want.

You have made a note that others have pointed out "flaws" to the current organizer's methods, and he has apparently resisted change - possibly even discouraging what the community wants. It is therefore unlikely that the current organizer can be swayed.

I would suggest a frank discussion with the owner of the FLGS, with the known backing of those dissatisfied with the current situation. Perhaps you can offer alternating versions of the tournament scene; the version that is more in line to the community's desires will eventually win out, but be aware that a different organizer than the current one will most likely be required.

We had a similiar issue.
I was the only one willing to do anything, By do anything I mean I went to the store manager, told her what he did, how it affected the community and how I will likely not come back

It is getting there and I have personally thought about it but, I would rather correct the issue. There is another plan to in the works that may require a brief pull out, the thing is, that would be in a few months if there are no changes for the better in that time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Take this with the knowledge that I HATE tournaments of any kind (I prefer just casual play, regardless of system).

If the organizer is putting together events that the community dislikes, then the only real counter is for someone to step up and begin presenting events that the community does want.

You have made a note that others have pointed out "flaws" to the current organizer's methods, and he has apparently resisted change - possibly even discouraging what the community wants. It is therefore unlikely that the current organizer can be swayed.

I would suggest a frank discussion with the owner of the FLGS, with the known backing of those dissatisfied with the current situation. Perhaps you can offer alternating versions of the tournament scene; the version that is more in line to the community's desires will eventually win out, but be aware that a different organizer than the current one will most likely be required.

I understand the dislike for tournaments but they are a good indicator for how the community as a whole is and were to improve.
We could try the mix of standardized rules with nice scenarios and eye catching tables for more turnout while independently advertising the tournament. Could work, but will take time

Capitalism. Vote with your dollars. Don't go to things you don't like and don't buy from people who don't listen.

No formations makes no sense in 7th any more.

Many armies just don't function in a CAD. Some can't even legally make one as they don't have one of the slots. (clowns and skaitarii jump to mind as no HQ, inquisition as no troop)

There seems to be some animosity between the OP and TO.

ITC is not the end all be all of gamebalance, it does however chance some things around and allow for Forgeworld models to be used. If you want you can still make some real tough armies with certain codexes.

A CAD only tourny is a different thing.

I would have a chat with the store manager and hear if she would support your idea of a great tournament. Last time it went avry, due to lack of info to the folks participating.

There is a legitimate motivator to prevent FW use, because it means you're using products guaranteed not to have been bought from the store to a concrete and tangible advantage.

Frankly, FW should be limited to GW stores and pay-to-enter events without a specific store sponsorship; from an advertising perspective.

Forget about tourneys before 8-th.

 malamis wrote:
There is a legitimate motivator to prevent FW use, because it means you're using products guaranteed not to have been bought from the store to a concrete and tangible advantage.

Frankly, FW should be limited to GW stores and pay-to-enter events without a specific store sponsorship; from an advertising perspective.

If a store flat out bans FW, I will flat out ban my money entering its register. And I don't even use much FW. To restrict me from using my miniatures on your tables will not encourage me to buy your models. In fact, it will actively discourage me from doing so.

IN ADDITION, this "FW models are OP and don't blong remove FW!" garbage needs to die. Forgeworld models are more balanced, and often less powerful in general than GW units (with some exceptions, obv., I hate the existence of the Ta'unar and Ordintus) Who made the Wraithknight?

 Verviedi wrote:

 malamis wrote:
There is a legitimate motivator to prevent FW use, because it means you're using products guaranteed not to have been bought from the store to a concrete and tangible advantage.

Frankly, FW should be limited to GW stores and pay-to-enter events without a specific store sponsorship; from an advertising perspective.

If a store flat out bans FW, I will flat out ban my money entering its register. And I don't even use much FW. To restrict me from using my miniatures on your tables will not encourage me to buy your models. In fact, it will actively discourage me from doing so.

Which is perfectly valid.

If the store in question decides to establish a free or subsidised play environment which supports only the models and products that they sell, and perhaps with the motivation that FW is broken either non functional or completely overpowered, that is entirely valid too. The difference being of course that if the community they operate in/operate for do not want that, said venue will eventually have to re-evaluate.

There's no *right* answer to that problem, just what everyone involved in a given scenario space is willing to put up with.

Now in this specific case, a vocal minority, possibly shifting to majority want FW and have contacted the TO to inform them that the event, which we can only assume is to draw in business, is going to backfire within the structure that has been published. If the vocal minority which insisted that it be t'other way are the ones alienated by the decision to the affirmative, what happens? The store stops carrying GW products because the community is more trouble than it's worth?

As for the actual topic in hand, a competition game is a game; i've been playing long enough, and have a large enough collection to provide a non-waste-of-time matchup in that format regardless, and would rather welcome it too.

I would still definitely play in that tournament, because they're trying to create a certain style of game other than what they perceive to be the normal. That said, if there's a lot of you wanting a full ITC style tournament, why not ask if you can run one yourself?

I'm confused... if the community doesn't like the events that this guy is running, why are they playing in them?

If he's not interested in adjusting the way he runs events based on feedback, then the only other way you can illustrate that people don't want his style of event is for people to not show up to them.

If you want a different type of event, and he's not interested in running them, find someone who is.

Sounds to me like an event organizer is running an event that a couple people are cranky about and they are throwing a fit and then claiming the community doesn't want these events.

Yet people are playing in them.

As an event organizer, this is exactly why few people want to do event organization. Because of things like this.

If you want a different event, I would suggest organizing it yourself. This kind of gamer-politics is shameful and creates unnecessary conflict and strife. If no one truly wants the events this organizer is running, they won't show up to play in them.

This thread I think may need renamed to "40k tournament organizer not listening to me".

I understand what the TO is trying to accomplish. Look at the difference in effectiveness between the Codex Marine and Blood Angels Battle Companies. Codex Marines get several hundred points of free transports thrown in.

Stating that armies must be based on the CAD is a leveller against Detachment bonuses (some of which are seriously out of whack). Even the GW Devs have obviously realised this is a problem as faction-specific detachments are going away in 8th. The problem is that some recent armies as they stand cannot use CADs.

Ultimately the TO is trying in his/her own way to make a tournament that is fair (as they perceive it). If you don't like, go and play somewhere else. I know a lot of people at my local gaming group would like this idea. We have frequently discussed the idea of "house rules" based along these lines. Of course my local group contains many veteran players who remember "the good old days".

 Karhedron wrote:

Stating that armies must be based on the CAD is a leveller against Detachment bonuses (some of which are seriously out of whack). Even the GW Devs have obviously realised this is a problem as faction-specific detachments are going away in 8th. The problem is that some recent armies as they stand cannot use CADs.

Which, incidentally, means no knights.
I myself have proven this is actually a good idea, a limited format tournament that happens to allow for everything in the knight codex is asking for trouble.

Incidentally, it also means no Skitarii or Harlequins. So they already disenfranchised me, even before I noticed the "no FW cuz it's OP and doesn't blong and doesn't make money for me" stuff. So thanks for that, TO.

Here's the thing:
If it were the only rodeo in town, I'd still go to it.

A lot of people here are saying, "Well, people MUST like it if they're going to it!', but depending on the location of the store in question, it might be the only option for a lot of players. Maybe they're part of a tight-knit community and would rather go to a crummy tournament than play somewhere else with better rules but worse people.


As for me, well, I wouldn't like those rules one bit.

Ok. One part of being an adult is the realization that you don't always get your way.

Maybe more people should organize events instead of complain that the organizer isn't giving them their way?

I've never seen any community where there is no option for a lot of players. Never. Not once. I've seen a ton of complaining that the TO doesn't give them their way but never have I seen a place truly have no options because all that has to be done is someone step up and run an event the way they want. Its as easy as that.

If you are part of a community and the event organizer does things that you don't like, then step up and create events that do the things you like and people will go to what they want.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Here's the thing:
If it were the only rodeo in town, I'd still go to it.

A lot of people here are saying, "Well, people MUST like it if they're going to it!', but depending on the location of the store in question, it might be the only option for a lot of players. Maybe they're part of a tight-knit community and would rather go to a crummy tournament than play somewhere else with better rules but worse people.

Not that tight-knit, then, if they aren't just arranging games without waiting for someone else to sort it out.

Tournament Organizers generally don't listen to the community and why should they... it's not like you're going to organize your own for more than two editions is it?