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I understand to wound is determined by the attacker's strength versus the defender's toughness, but where and how is the AP modifier factored in to this equation? Any help would be appreciated. Thank you!

If your enemy has a 2+ save and you have -3 AP, thats means when he rolls to save the damage, he needs to roll a +2, but substract -3 to the roll. So if he rolls a 5-3=2, he pass. A 6-3=3, he pass.

You can say that he receive a save of 5+, but the formula I'm ussing is relevant to some habilities that "activate" with a specific roll into a save, for example:

In AoS, in some cases, if you roll a 6 or more in the save roll, you cause a Wound to the attacker (Representing a magic/spiky shield for example), so if you gain a +1 save, you activate that hability with a roll of 5 (5+1=6) or 6 (6+1=7), but if you receive a -1 to the save, you can't activate that hability, because a 6 will be 6-1=5.

For the shake of speed, everyone uses the 2+ save vs -3AP weapon is just a 5+ save, but in reality is a malus to the save roll, it doesn't modify the save, and thats why it interacts with habilities that need a specific save roll.

It's the same as the AoS rending system. The ap of a weapon is -x and that just means you -x from the model's save.

it is a modifier to the opponents save roll.

So if I have a weapon that is AP -2, my opponent gets a -2 modifier applied to whatever they roll on their save dice.

So if the opponent has a 3+ save, and rolls a 4 but are at -2 they have now rolled a 2 and failed their save.

The easier way to thing about it is that the modifier makes their save that many points worse. So a modifier of -2 on a 3+ save makes their save a 5+

Another way to think of it is that it "worsens" the model's save.

Example: Model A shoots at Model B with a -3 AP weapon, and Model B has a an Armor Save of 2+. So it would go to a 3+ with -1 AP, goes to 4+ with -2 AP, goes to 5+ with -3 AP, and becomes a 6+ Armor Save if hit by a weapon with -4 AP.

A 2+ save that gets worse by -3 would become a 5+ Armor Save. A 3+ Armor save would become 6+ in this example.

Basically, there is a chance that tough armored models can get something to save with, rather than the all-or-nothing system in place in 7th Edition 40K.

As stated, your AP is now a modifier on the armour penetration roll made by the opponent, not on the armour save value.

A model with a 4+ save, for example, getting hit with a AP-3 weapon, cannot make a save, as 6-3=3. But if hit with a -2 weapon, he can roll a 5, which would be 5-2=3 (fail), but rolling a 6, 6-2=4 so he passed.

It means that



AP-4 bypasses all armour except 2+, which gets a 6+ save
AP-3 bypasses all armour except 3+ and 2+, which get a 6+ and 5+ save respectively.
AP-2 bypasses all armour except 4+, 3+ and 3+, which get a 6+, 5+ and 4+ save respectively.
AP-1 bypasses only 6+ save. 5+, 4+, 3+ and 2+ become 6+, 5+, 4+ and 3+ respectively.
AP0 does nothing.

It would also mean that AP-5, which is as yet to be seen, ignores all armour saves. Given that the old AP1 weapons are now -4 (meltaguns), then this would perhaps suggest -4 is as good as it gets.

Thank you all for the information! I understand it now.

 Deadshot wrote:
...
Given that the old AP1 weapons are now -4 (meltaguns), then this would perhaps suggest -4 is as good as it gets.

We may yet see a 1+ Armor Save seeing how effects stack, but always fails on a roll of one, but does get a 2+ Armors Save against -1 AP. In that same vein, we might also get units or abilities that boost a units AP value, so we might see -5 AP weapons, and possibly some weapons that "Ignore Armor Saves" in some way. Those would be the extreme cases though, and wouldn't be likely to be found on basic troopers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
Thank you all for the information! I understand it now.

You're welcome!

 BunkhouseBuster wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
...
Given that the old AP1 weapons are now -4 (meltaguns), then this would perhaps suggest -4 is as good as it gets.

We may yet see a 1+ Armor Save seeing how effects stack, but always fails on a roll of one, but does get a 2+ Armors Save against -1 AP. In that same vein, we might also get units or abilities that boost a units AP value, so we might see -5 AP weapons, and possibly some weapons that "Ignore Armor Saves" in some way. Those would be the extreme cases though, and wouldn't be likely to be found on basic troopers.

It is quite possible but I don't see either 1+ Saves or AP-5 happening.

Terminator Armour is supposed to be the top level personal armour in the galaxy, better than any other Imperial or Xenos armour. They get a 2+ save (with probably a their 5+ invulnerable). Imperial Knights are mini-titans and get 3+. The only units I'd see getting a 1+ armour save based on those two things would be Land Raiders or Reaver or larger titans.

Similarly, AP1 in the old system represented shots and attacks so positively armour ripping that not only did they complete bypass all possible personal armour, but they tore through even the heaviest vehicles with ease. Those have now been reduced to -4, so those Terminators still get a save against weapons that shoot star-core temperate gas at you and can burn straight through a vehicle's hull with ease.

 Deadshot wrote:
It is quite possible but I don't see either 1+ Saves or AP-5 happening.

Terminator Armour is supposed to be the top level personal armour in the galaxy, better than any other Imperial or Xenos armour. They get a 2+ save (with probably a their 5+ invulnerable). Imperial Knights are mini-titans and get 3+. The only units I'd see getting a 1+ armour save based on those two things would be Land Raiders or Reaver or larger titans.

Similarly, AP1 in the old system represented shots and attacks so positively armour ripping that not only did they complete bypass all possible personal armour, but they tore through even the heaviest vehicles with ease. Those have now been reduced to -4, so those Terminators still get a save against weapons that shoot star-core temperate gas at you and can burn straight through a vehicle's hull with ease.

Do not forget the Mortal Wound mechanic. It is likely that we will see it on formally Str D Weapons as well.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
It is quite possible but I don't see either 1+ Saves or AP-5 happening.

Terminator Armour is supposed to be the top level personal armour in the galaxy, better than any other Imperial or Xenos armour. They get a 2+ save (with probably a their 5+ invulnerable). Imperial Knights are mini-titans and get 3+. The only units I'd see getting a 1+ armour save based on those two things would be Land Raiders or Reaver or larger titans.

Similarly, AP1 in the old system represented shots and attacks so positively armour ripping that not only did they complete bypass all possible personal armour, but they tore through even the heaviest vehicles with ease. Those have now been reduced to -4, so those Terminators still get a save against weapons that shoot star-core temperate gas at you and can burn straight through a vehicle's hull with ease.

Do not forget the Mortal Wound mechanic. It is likely that we will see it on formally Str D Weapons as well.

That is a possibility, although don't forget there was a time Destroyer weapons did ignore Invulnerables as well. In their original Apocalypse rules, they ignored all saves. Can't survive a Volcano Cannon with your pitiful little combat shield really.

Go to your local FLGS, and find someone that will give you a demo game of Age of Sigmar, and you will be ready to play 8th edition when it comes out.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Go to your local FLGS, and find someone that will give you a demo game of Age of Sigmar, and you will be ready to play 8th edition when it comes out.

Not entirely. The Wounding mechanic is far different and there are a lot more ranged weapons in 40K than in Fantasy/AoS.

But if you face off against a Stormcast army focused on their crossbows, that would probably give you some idea of what you'll regularly face.