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I'd like to run this by you guys, as it probably isn't RAI.
The rhino primaris says: "Add 1 to hit rolls for a single friendly <chapter> unit within 12" of this model until the end of this phase." The intent hearkens back to the old unit profile. This rule would make it bs5 instead of bs4. now this rule turns 3's into 4's and 1's into 2's. Which means... It is impossible to roll a 1 when using this ability. Not rerollable 1's, IMPOSSIBLE 1's! Oh joy of joys!

Thoughts?

 MattKing wrote:
I'd like to run this by you guys, as it probably isn't RAI.
The rhino primaris says: "Add 1 to hit rolls for a single friendly <chapter> unit within 12" of this model until the end of this phase." The intent hearkens back to the old unit profile. This rule would make it bs5 instead of bs4. now this rule turns 3's into 4's and 1's into 2's. Which means... It is impossible to roll a 1 when using this ability. Not rerollable 1's, IMPOSSIBLE 1's! Oh joy of joys!

Thoughts?

Re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.

My point is they can't get hot.

Yeah, I think this is right. It's relevant in a bunch of different ways, and actually the way some rules are written seems to make clear that this is intended.

For example, some Necron weapons have additional effects on a "hit roll of 6+". The "+" is odd if it's talking only about an unmodified 6. Just like with plasma, this should benefit from a +1 to hit modifier by doubling the chance of achieving a modified hit roll of 6+.

I don't know if there's anything similar for wound rolls. If so, that would benefit snipers.

Meanwhile abilities that allow only 1s to be rerolled would still work regardless because rerolls happen before modifiers, so plasma with +1 to hit and reroll 1s will never get hot and you can still reroll the 1s to try for a hit.

Plasma supercharge is "on a hit roll of 1..."; roll to hit last sentence is "a roll of 1..."

These mean what the dice actually shows, to hit is clearer on this by adding the verbiage "irrespective of modifiers(para)"; but the subject remains constant.

 MattKing wrote:
My point is they can't get hot.

Sorry, long day getting ready for my niece's graduation tomorrow.

Having said that, it is possible to overheat. The Servo-skull Hub can only choose one of the three effects and that effect only applies to a single unit. It all comes down to if you're willing to risk supercharging the twin plasma gun while buffing another unit.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Plasma supercharge is "on a hit roll of 1..."; roll to hit last sentence is "a roll of 1..."

These mean what the dice actually shows, to hit is clearer on this by adding the verbiage "irrespective of modifiers(para)"; but the subject remains constant.

The rules obviously do not generally mean that "a roll" is the unmodified value shown on the die. The "irrespective of any modifiers" clause is not there for clarity; it changes the meaning. For example, look two sentences up from where you are in the "Hit Roll" section. "If the roll is equal to or greater than the attacking model's Ballistic Skill characteristic, then it scores a hit with the weapon it is using." If "the roll" refers to the number of pips showing on the die, "irrespective of any modifiers", then modifiers to hit rolls simply never do anything at all.

We're explicitly told to add 1 to a hit roll. That modifies the roll. When we're then required to compare "the roll" to some other value, we look at the number of pips showing, add the appropriate modifiers, and compare the modified roll. The rules tell us when to use the unmodified roll explicitly.

The and a can have 2 different meanings.

The being the final result.

A being the actual die roll before modifiers.

I had myself stated that the "irrespective of modifiers" is a clarification; a clarification that the change from the roll to a roll means what is shown on the actual dice.

I am not stating this with certainty and authority or anything, but it does have a further effect: a dev with a plasma cannon moves in the movement phase. He fires the plasma cannon 3 times. A roll of 1, 3, and 5 means he does not overheat by your reading(having scored a 0, 2, and 4. He hit once) but if he had rolled 1, 2 , and 5; then he would hit once, miss once, and overheat(end the rolls of 0, 1, and 4; but the 1 would miss anyways in both cases).

In my interpretation both times the marine would overheat once(having a die roll a 1).

The wording is:
Gets Hot: "On a to-hit roll of 1, the bearer is slain after all shots are resolved"
And: "Add 1 to hit rolls for a single friendly <chapter> unit within 12"

It still appears to me that, although I have rolled a 1, the resultant roll is a 2. Gets hot does not say "irrespective of modifiers"

No, it is not.

The wording is:
Twin plasma gun: "On a hit roll of 1, the bearer is slain after all of this weapon's shots have been resolved".
And: "Add 1 to hit rolls for a single friendly <chapter> unit within 12..."

If you are going to argue about wording, you need to ensure you are quoting the wording correctly.

We are not likely to know how these types of "abilities" are effected by modifiers until the first FAQ. rerolls are clear but to hit modifiers are questionable. It is best to fall back on "the most important rule" for the time being and discuss pregame.

The devastator's signum has a similar bonus to hit(and can have plasma cannons), so standing still, taking the signum bonus on a PCDev, then sacing the cherub will net 2d6 supercharged shots that only miss on a nat1by your reading.

One's always fail, so one's alway count as one's.

Ones always fail, regardless of modifiers. I know this, this is not what I'm arguing about.

The rules do NOT say "ones cannot be modified" It's simply that they always fail.

Necron Tesla weapons state that : Each hit roll of 6+...." Thereby implying that any modifier of this roll occurs BEFORE the special rule comes into effect. (Otherwise you could never have a number greater than 6.)

Gets hot is: "On a hit roll of 1..."

Both of thees abilities use the phrase "hit roll of #"

What causes Gets hot to occur before modifiers, but Tesla weapons to occur after modifiers? They use the same phrasing and have similar effects.


If you roll a 1 with an overcharged plasma weapon it would still fail. Because rolls of 1 always fail irrespective of modifiers as per BRB.

But after modifiers it may no longer be a "to hit roll" of 1. Meaning you would not suffer the effects of gets hot.

The + after the number 6 in tesla.

"On a" vs "Each".

These are additional or differing verbiage that effect the rest of the statement.

It will be nice to have an FAQ out shortly after release to clear up this and some other questions. Right now though, we can only discuss it with our opponents pregame.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/882175-.html
gotta love ITC.

 MattKing wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/882175-.html
gotta love ITC.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

Point #2. That's the only thing that will lay this one to rest.

Very well.
As the head of ITC America "may or may not have" pointed out: Adding +1 to the dice roll is RAW according to the interaction of the special rules in play. All of the special rules occur at the same time. Therefore the hit is a fail, due to 1's always being treated as failures. But for the non- to hit purposes of the special rules the 1 is still treated as a 2, per the special rule granted by the rhino primaris.

In summary:

"You cannot overheat when you have a +1 to hit. The 1 still misses, but the die roll counts as a 2. So, you miss, but don't die, essentially."
-Reece Richard Robbins - June 6th, 2017,

 MattKing wrote:
Very well.
As the head of ITC America "may or may not have" pointed out: Adding +1 to the dice roll is RAW according to the interaction of the special rules in play. All of the special rules occur at the same time. Therefore the hit is a fail, due to 1's always being treated as failures. But for the non- to hit purposes of the special rules the 1 is still treated as a 2, per the special rule granted by the rhino primaris.

In summary:

"You cannot overheat when you have a +1 to hit. The 1 still misses, but the die roll counts as a 2. So, you miss, but don't die, essentially."
-Reece Richard Robbins - June 6th, 2017,

And ITC has been known to change rules. So again, only an answer from Games Workshop will put this to rest.

 MattKing wrote:
Very well.
As the head of ITC America "may or may not have" pointed out: Adding +1 to the dice roll is RAW according to the interaction of the special rules in play. All of the special rules occur at the same time. Therefore the hit is a fail, due to 1's always being treated as failures. But for the non- to hit purposes of the special rules the 1 is still treated as a 2, per the special rule granted by the rhino primaris.

In summary:

"You cannot overheat when you have a +1 to hit. The 1 still misses, but the die roll counts as a 2. So, you miss, but don't die, essentially."
-Reece Richard Robbins - June 6th, 2017,

I love Reece to death and he obviously was in the playtest group, but that in no way means he isn't ever wrong. Hell, he was wrong like 10 times in the live stream. This isn't to bag on him at all (that was an amazing feat of a feed), its just I know personally from past history that GW can even tell you one thing privately and then end up changing their mind later on when they release their official FAQ.

 MattKing wrote:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/882175-.html
gotta love ITC.

But he then goes on to make the flat-out wrong assertion that if you have -2 to hit, you will overheat on a 1, 2, or 3. By his previous logic, you would only overheat on a 3, as the 1 would be reduced to -1 and the 2 to 0. As such I am not convinced this post is a reasonable guide for rules interpretation.

 yakface wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
Very well.
As the head of ITC America "may or may not have" pointed out: Adding +1 to the dice roll is RAW according to the interaction of the special rules in play. All of the special rules occur at the same time. Therefore the hit is a fail, due to 1's always being treated as failures. But for the non- to hit purposes of the special rules the 1 is still treated as a 2, per the special rule granted by the rhino primaris.

In summary:

"You cannot overheat when you have a +1 to hit. The 1 still misses, but the die roll counts as a 2. So, you miss, but don't die, essentially."
-Reece Richard Robbins - June 6th, 2017,

I love Reece to death and he obviously was in the playtest group, but that in no way means he isn't ever wrong. Hell, he was wrong like 10 times in the live stream. This isn't to bag on him at all (that was an amazing feat of a feed), its just I know personally from past history that GW can even tell you one thing privately and then end up changing their mind later on when they release their official FAQ.

And GW has even contradicted themselves sometime later in their official FAQs, as well.

Or within the same FAQ.