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So with the changes to GK weapon profiles I am starting to think Psilencers might now be the way to go for heavy weapons options. 6 shots with D3 damage per wound is pretty nasty. Dreads have become much stronger it seems and can do the heavy lifting of dealing with armor with the twin assault cannons. Couple this with Draigo and his rerolls and it could get pretty nasty.
What are your thoughts on this?
Trying to figure out if I should equip my Purgation squad with Psilencers or Psycannons.
Personally I loved the idea of Gatling force guns since I seen them and I will use them more than the other options, even moreso because of the flamer changes.
Psilencers seems like the better choice, particularly given the cost.
I'm actually trying to figure out when I'd prefer the psilencers, most high toughness targets have so many wounds the d3 would win out I'd imagine. It looks to be better or the same against almost every target I can think to check. Maybe I'm messing up my math, but it looks flat out better and cheaper.
Yea that's what I'm thinking as well. Because of the change to the strength to toughness chart it seems like its entirely more effective at just about everything.
I will likely be changing my Purgation Squad to them instead of the psycannons I was going to run initially.
The Psilencer is definitely better for infantry thanks to D3 wounds, but the Heavy Psycannon used by the Dreadknight might beat the Gatling Psilencer because it gets a wound buff of its own to 2.
So I'm not sure on Dreadknights, but I think you're totally right for all infantry.
TheMostWize wrote: Dreadnoughts might be better than knights. Cheaper point wise with similar fire power
Dreadknight are extremely durable in this edition. I used one with Heavy Incinerator and Heavy Psycannon tonight. The incinerator is nice because it's range is 12". When you teleport in you can use it. Then when you use gate of infinity on the dreadknight you can use it again.
Audustum wrote: The Psilencer is definitely better for infantry thanks to D3 wounds, but the Heavy Psycannon used by the Dreadknight might beat the Gatling Psilencer because it gets a wound buff of its own to 2.
So I'm not sure on Dreadknights, but I think you're totally right for all infantry.
I'm considering going all out with my Dreadknights and giving them both Heavy Psilencers, a Heavy Psycannon and the sword or hammer if I have points left over.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/03 04:37:12
GW: "We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants"
The Psilencer is definitely the winner of the recent changes, with the Incinerator next and the Psycannon last. Regular infantry models should just stick with their Stormbolters and Smite rather than upgrade to the heavy weapon, however.
Definitely go with a Heavy Psilencer and Heavy Psycannon on NDKs, and definitely go with the Psilencer for Purgators. But for everone else, Stormbolters and Smite. Incinerator on Interceptors is still a thing, but the points are still better spent on more models.
My assessment so far.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
jeffersonian000 wrote: The Psilencer is definitely the winner of the recent changes, with the Incinerator next and the Psycannon last. Regular infantry models should just stick with their Stormbolters and Smite rather than upgrade to the heavy weapon, however.
Definitely go with a Heavy Psilencer and Heavy Psycannon on NDKs, and definitely go with the Psilencer for Purgators. But for everone else, Stormbolters and Smite. Incinerator on Interceptors is still a thing, but the points are still better spent on more models.
My assessment so far.
SJ
Agreed. Going to need to remodel some of my guys now *sigh*
I saw with eyes then young, and this is my testament.
jeffersonian000 wrote: The Psilencer is definitely the winner of the recent changes, with the Incinerator next and the Psycannon last. Regular infantry models should just stick with their Stormbolters and Smite rather than upgrade to the heavy weapon, however.
Definitely go with a Heavy Psilencer and Heavy Psycannon on NDKs, and definitely go with the Psilencer for Purgators. But for everone else, Stormbolters and Smite. Incinerator on Interceptors is still a thing, but the points are still better spent on more models.
My assessment so far.
SJ
You think Paladins are still best off with Storm Bolters and smite? Being able to get two Psilencers in the squad seems like a pretty strong option to me. I know storm bolters are looking to be pretty nasty in their current form but at 10pts a piece it doesn't seem like a terrible option.
jeffersonian000 wrote: The Psilencer is definitely the winner of the recent changes, with the Incinerator next and the Psycannon last. Regular infantry models should just stick with their Stormbolters and Smite rather than upgrade to the heavy weapon, however.
Definitely go with a Heavy Psilencer and Heavy Psycannon on NDKs, and definitely go with the Psilencer for Purgators. But for everone else, Stormbolters and Smite. Incinerator on Interceptors is still a thing, but the points are still better spent on more models.
My assessment so far.
SJ
You think Paladins are still best off with Storm Bolters and smite? Being able to get two Psilencers in the squad seems like a pretty strong option to me. I know storm bolters are looking to be pretty nasty in their current form but at 10pts a piece it doesn't seem like a terrible option.
Could be a worthwhile option. I still need to compare Paladins to other varieties of Termies in the Index to see if they're even worth running still.
I saw with eyes then young, and this is my testament.
jeffersonian000 wrote: The Psilencer is definitely the winner of the recent changes, with the Incinerator next and the Psycannon last. Regular infantry models should just stick with their Stormbolters and Smite rather than upgrade to the heavy weapon, however.
Definitely go with a Heavy Psilencer and Heavy Psycannon on NDKs, and definitely go with the Psilencer for Purgators. But for everone else, Stormbolters and Smite. Incinerator on Interceptors is still a thing, but the points are still better spent on more models.
My assessment so far.
SJ
You think Paladins are still best off with Storm Bolters and smite? Being able to get two Psilencers in the squad seems like a pretty strong option to me. I know storm bolters are looking to be pretty nasty in their current form but at 10pts a piece it doesn't seem like a terrible option.
Could be a worthwhile option. I still need to compare Paladins to other varieties of Termies in the Index to see if they're even worth running still.
+1 W, +1 A and +1 Ld plus the option to get a 2nd special weapon with a squad of 5. Even though the -1 to hit might not make it worth while on a unit like that. I think the extra stats will probably make the 9 points worth it. Stops you from getting insta gibbed by autocannons and plasma.
Psilencers or Psycannons? It's 4 for Psilencers and 7 for Psycannons. With the changes to the Wound chart though I'm not sure that's huge.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheMostWize wrote: Dreadnoughts might be better than knights. Cheaper point wise with similar fire power
Yeah but Knights are 12" move still and can cast Purge Soul or Gate, which I don't think Dreads can. That's a big difference.
Nope, NDKs are now M8"
Yea thats why I am thinking Dreads might be better options now. Also do Grey Knight dreads get access to a sanctic power since they become grey knight psykers in the grey knights army?
If so I don't see how a dreadknight would be a better option when looking at point costs.
Against toughness values 4-7 the psycannon is probably the better option. Over that you have a crap chance to wound either way, so spitting volume of dice is the better call.
D3 damage, not wounds. They don't spill over to other targets. Meaning doing D3 damage to a 1 wound model is overkill.
Pretty much everything out there worth killing has an armor save.
And really if you're running into something that doesn't really have a save, you already have a solid gun in the storm bolter.
I can't think of a unit profile i've seen yet that would merit the use of a Psilencer.
Against a 3+ save with 4 toughness, the Psycannon is twice as effective at hitting and wounding. Damage might make up for that, but only if you're shooting 2+ wound targets.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/05 18:31:31
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Mathhammer has Psilencers (both versions) at the top, with Psycannons (both versions) a close second, while Incinerators (both versions) are a distant last. If indeed Psycannons have a typo and should be Heavy 6 instead of Heavy 4, the Psilencer still wins out, just by less of a margin. Rate of fire still reigns king.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
jeffersonian000 wrote: Mathhammer has Psilencers (both versions) at the top, with Psycannons (both versions) a close second, while Incinerators (both versions) are a distant last. If indeed Psycannons have a typo and should be Heavy 6 instead of Heavy 4, the Psilencer still wins out, just by less of a margin. Rate of fire still reigns king.
SJ
This is what I was thinking. The -1 ap is nice but the sheer weight of shots from a psilencer squad outweighs it. That's an extra 8 shots in a squad of 4.
I guess I should run Psilencers on my Paladins as well and let an IK do the heavy lifting against armor and such.
jeffersonian000 wrote: Mathhammer has Psilencers (both versions) at the top, with Psycannons (both versions) a close second, while Incinerators (both versions) are a distant last. If indeed Psycannons have a typo and should be Heavy 6 instead of Heavy 4, the Psilencer still wins out, just by less of a margin. Rate of fire still reigns king.
SJ
This is what I was thinking. The -1 ap is nice but the sheer weight of shots from a psilencer squad outweighs it. That's an extra 8 shots in a squad of 4.
I guess I should run Psilencers on my Paladins as well and let an IK do the heavy lifting against armor and such.
Pretty much.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
jeffersonian000 wrote: Mathhammer has Psilencers (both versions) at the top, with Psycannons (both versions) a close second, while Incinerators (both versions) are a distant last. If indeed Psycannons have a typo and should be Heavy 6 instead of Heavy 4, the Psilencer still wins out, just by less of a margin. Rate of fire still reigns king.
SJ
This is what I was thinking. The -1 ap is nice but the sheer weight of shots from a psilencer squad outweighs it. That's an extra 8 shots in a squad of 4.
I guess I should run Psilencers on my Paladins as well and let an IK do the heavy lifting against armor and such.
Pretty much.
SJ
Kind of. If you think about it -1 AP is worth double the shots against 2+ armour (since instead of failing one in six rolls they're failing two in six), which outweighs +50% shots; they're at parity against 3+ armour (two in six plus one in six = 50% increase in the number of failed saves, as opposed to 50% increase in the number of shots).
Psycannons are better against things with high T/good saves/both, but they're never better by enough to really justify the extra 10pts (whether against single large targets or massed ground targets).
(Though in reading up on this response I did run across the rather amusing fact that a Thousand Son has the same armour save against a psilencer and a psycannon.)
Psilencers will only win out if you can make use of the D3 damage. If you can't make use of the D3 damage, they lose horribly.
And I would argue neither gun does very well against vehicles.
Sternguard with super charged combi plasma is still going to be way more effective than Psilencers, just make sure you have a way to reroll the 1s.
EDIT - I think we should set a baseline target though, and factor in what volume of shots we're throwing. Psilencers *are* better than they used to be in a big way.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/05 21:06:15
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
TheMostWize wrote: Well I think the baseline would be against a Marine with a 3+ save and T4.
You can adjust from there but that is pretty much the baseline everything revolves around anyway.
4 shots at strength 7 with a -1 save mod
versus
6 shots at strength 4 with no save mod
We don't need to consider moving since they're both heavy and are affected equally. Against 1 wound models, the Psycannon is doubly effective shot per shot, so the end ratio is 33% more effective overall gun for gun, compared to the Psilencer.
Keep in mind that gun-for-gun the expected kills against 1T models is still less than 1. These guns aren't good.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
TheMostWize wrote: Well I think the baseline would be against a Marine with a 3+ save and T4.
You can adjust from there but that is pretty much the baseline everything revolves around anyway.
4 shots at strength 7 with a -1 save mod
versus
6 shots at strength 4 with no save mod
We don't need to consider moving since they're both heavy and are affected equally. Against 1 wound models, the Psycannon is doubly effective shot per shot, so the end ratio is 33% more effective overall gun for gun, compared to the Psilencer.
Keep in mind that gun-for-gun the expected kills against 1T models is still less than 1. These guns aren't good.
If the ratio is so low it would seem you would be better off just equipping storm bolters then and using the points to dump into some true ranged heavy hitters.
Psilencers or Psycannons? It's 4 for Psilencers and 7 for Psycannons. With the changes to the Wound chart though I'm not sure that's huge.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheMostWize wrote: Dreadnoughts might be better than knights. Cheaper point wise with similar fire power
Yeah but Knights are 12" move still and can cast Purge Soul or Gate, which I don't think Dreads can. That's a big difference.
Nope, NDKs are now M8"
Yeah, my brain forgot to look at titles and just went "left-most box = move".
That said, I'm still not seeing why the Dread is preferable. I'd much have a Psilencer or Heavy Incinerator than most of his loadouts and with a Greatsword my Dreadknights are only about 20 points more than they were in 7th. Plus the Dreadknight gets a 5++, which I think only Custodes Dreadnoughts boast outside of HQ's.
I'll look more tonight but the Dreadknight seems better at a glance.
Marmatag wrote: Psilencers will only win out if you can make use of the D3 damage. If you can't make use of the D3 damage, they lose horribly.
And I would argue neither gun does very well against vehicles.
Sternguard with super charged combi plasma is still going to be way more effective than Psilencers, just make sure you have a way to reroll the 1s.
EDIT - I think we should set a baseline target though, and factor in what volume of shots we're throwing. Psilencers *are* better than they used to be in a big way.
Wouldn't those Sternguard also be way more expensive? Terminators are only paying 10 points per Psilencer. Just within the Grey Knight world, the 2 damage average on a Psilencer is much better than the 1 damage on a Psycannon.
We'd probably need 2 baselines, because the Psilencer is at a disadvantage for sure against a 1W model with no FNP due to overkill. A 2W model or a 1W with FNP changes things.
