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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/05 23:37:44
Subject: HH: Master of Mankind: Sacrificing 40k for Literary Symbolism and a Story?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Take this as a grain of salt: Although the book is fantastic, it is unknowingly breaking apart the foundations for 40k as a whole , or at least the basis for an Imperium of Man Fans.
 [/spoiler]
To understand why this is we have to take a look at the nature of Grim-Dark settings in general and their effective way of storytelling. Imagine a lit candle in broad daylight, at midday, on white pavement. It is a fire hazard, we extinguish it because it poses a risk to us. But now imagine you are in a sealed warehouse, darker than pitch, you cannot see your hand, and hell maybe even the old joke "I can't hear you, it's too dark" could apply literally. Now put the same candle in there. It is not a fire hazard anymore, it is the equivalent of water in a desert, your guiding light, your hope. Grim Dark settings work because they amplify hope far more greatly than other genres do. 40k takes this concept to an extreme, and shoves that tiny candlelight (plays a large part in 40k) in a twisted hybrid of Dune, Lovecraft, Asimov, and Moorcock. Many authors of the Black Library run with the greek classic of Hubris as the main flaw of a tragic character, and they applied this to the Emperor (to their folly in my opinion). 40k's main tragedy however, the most powerful defining piece of writing in the lore comes at the climax of the Emperor's Battle with Horus, when the Emperor Realized he could not bring all his power to bear because of his love.The Emperor's compassion was what damned the Imperium, and what spawned the magical 10,000 years we all love to fight in  He literally exorcised all 4 Chaos gods in their entirety and destroyed a soul, something incredible in and of itself, (It is the warp equivalent of destroying mass). The Emperor of Mankind is largest component of "hope" in 40k, that grimdark candle is most recognizable in the form of the astronomican. The Emperor is the hope we rally behind, the most powerful human to ever exist and the only one capable of challenging the Dark Gods, (to the extent the dark god's fear him) only to lose to himself, and it is the reason 40k does not drown completely in darkness. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrrky5Jg9D0
Now enter: The Master of Mankind
Take note that all of the misery of 40k stems from humans, with the warp, emotions, summoning, etc etc. Now consider this in the demon drach'nyen. 40k's overarching, generalized theme is Man vs. Man. The first sin, the first echo stemming from cold blooded murder, a manifestation of all of human evil condensed down into a perfect form. It is quite thinly veiled symbolism for the death of mankind stemming from mankind itself, and by extension, the Emperor. And fittingly enough it is Abaddons sword, in some sense rendering Abaddon the Anti-Thesis of the God Emperor. The concept from a storytelling point of view is fantastic, not even the Emperor can kill it so fundamentally intertwined with human malice because he is also human, he can only make it go away, as mankind will never escape itself. So brilliant story telling on this part, but there is an issue. In addition to rendering the Gods of Chaos obsolete in both concept and power with the idea of this character, you have erased the foundations of 40k as a whole:
By sacrificing the Emperor's power to help set up a fantastic, symbolic piece of storytelling, You have broken the source of hope in grimdark. in additon to disregarding existence of the gods of chaos as a whole in both a storytelling sense and lore sense.
These two things, the 40k setting and this story, cannot exist together.
 Inquisitor Emallesso, Ordo Hereticus
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"There is a terrible darkness descending upon the galaxy, and we shall not see it ended in our lifetimes."
— Inquisitor Bronislaw Czevak at the Conclave of Har |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/06 00:39:43
Subject: HH: Master of Mankind: Sacrificing 40k for Literary Symbolism and a Story?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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Not...exactly? There is more to the Emperor, and to the Imperium, than some faint hope of final victory. The quest of civilization in the Warhammer cosmology is not to find a way to destroy Chaos, it is to find a way to survive it. The Warp is a fact of existence. The Dark Gods are far, far beyond our power, our comprehension, our ability to challenge or affect.
Consider the Webway, the Eldar. There we have (had?) a civilization that progressed further and accomplished more than humanity ever did, not because they could march into the gardens of the Dark Gods and stick a spear in their face, but because they could contain and control the influence of Chaos on their civilization. They failed, in the end, but even in the remnant of today their psykers don't wander around with dudes in giant hats behind them ready to summarily execute them at the first sign of corruption, and they don't drop planet-busters when they find daemonic incursions, because they understand far more about the Warp than humanity does and are capable of containing and controlling it.
The Emperor doesn't offer hope by being the one the Chaos Gods fear. He isn't hope because he's 'powerful', he's hope because of what he knew and could learn. In building new bits of the Webway he pushed the bounds of human understanding of the Warp to the point where he accomplished things the Eldar couldn't, things not done since the fall of the Old Ones, and in doing so he brought hope back.
We (meaning "the material", whether human, Eldar, Ork, etc.) are all children playing with fire when it comes to the Warp. Some are more careful than others, but eventually everyone sets themselves alight. In the dungeons below the Imperial Palace the Emperor built a blast furnace, contained and controlled the destruction, channeled it to a useful purpose. The Emperor is not hope in that his presence is powerful. He is not hope in that he succeeded. He is hope in that he showed us the boundaries of our understanding and expanded them. He made humanity more than it was, lifted it further, and he showed us that just because the last guy was beaten doesn't mean that we can't move beyond him.
The life of a soldier in the 41st Milennium isn't one of trying to 'win' the war. The Imperium is not going to kill Chaos Gods, nuke the Silent King, assault Commoragh, eradicate the Orks, et cetera. Peace, victory, understanding, whatever will not come in their lives, their children's lives, perhaps ever. But they hold the line anyway, because humanity is surviving. Learning. Progressing. Rediscovering ancient technologies, awakening Primarchs, keeping the forge worlds open and the agri-worlds farming. Because we may be infants today, but tomorrow we may understand, grow, push the boundaries further. Because the Emperor showed us that it can be done. That just because the Old Ones and the Eldar failed doesn't mean that we will, that their knowledge, technology, and power aren't out of our reach.
Humanity may be flawed, we may never be able to exorcise the darker parts of ourselves, we may never be entirely free of the threat of Chaos, but that doesn't mean we can't move forward in spite of it. There may not be a hope of absolute victory, but that doesn't mean that tomorrow will never be brighter than today. The Emperor may be a rotting corpse, but ten thousand years down the line Chaos hasn't been able to destroy what he built.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/06 01:36:43
Subject: HH: Master of Mankind: Sacrificing 40k for Literary Symbolism and a Story?
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Fresh-Faced New User
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AnomanderRake wrote:Not...exactly? There is more to the Emperor, and to the Imperium, than some faint hope of final victory. The quest of civilization in the Warhammer cosmology is not to find a way to destroy Chaos, it is to find a way to survive it. The Warp is a fact of existence. The Dark Gods are far, far beyond our power, our comprehension, our ability to challenge or affect.
Consider the Webway, the Eldar. There we have (had?) a civilization that progressed further and accomplished more than humanity ever did, not because they could march into the gardens of the Dark Gods and stick a spear in their face, but because they could contain and control the influence of Chaos on their civilization. They failed, in the end, but even in the remnant of today their psykers don't wander around with dudes in giant hats behind them ready to summarily execute them at the first sign of corruption, and they don't drop planet-busters when they find daemonic incursions, because they understand far more about the Warp than humanity does and are capable of containing and controlling it.
The Emperor doesn't offer hope by being the one the Chaos Gods fear. He isn't hope because he's 'powerful', he's hope because of what he knew and could learn. In building new bits of the Webway he pushed the bounds of human understanding of the Warp to the point where he accomplished things the Eldar couldn't, things not done since the fall of the Old Ones, and in doing so he brought hope back.
We (meaning "the material", whether human, Eldar, Ork, etc.) are all children playing with fire when it comes to the Warp. Some are more careful than others, but eventually everyone sets themselves alight. In the dungeons below the Imperial Palace the Emperor built a blast furnace, contained and controlled the destruction, channeled it to a useful purpose. The Emperor is not hope in that his presence is powerful. He is not hope in that he succeeded. He is hope in that he showed us the boundaries of our understanding and expanded them. He made humanity more than it was, lifted it further, and he showed us that just because the last guy was beaten doesn't mean that we can't move beyond him.
The life of a soldier in the 41st Milennium isn't one of trying to 'win' the war. The Imperium is not going to kill Chaos Gods, nuke the Silent King, assault Commoragh, eradicate the Orks, et cetera. Peace, victory, understanding, whatever will not come in their lives, their children's lives, perhaps ever. But they hold the line anyway, because humanity is surviving. Learning. Progressing. Rediscovering ancient technologies, awakening Primarchs, keeping the forge worlds open and the agri-worlds farming. Because we may be infants today, but tomorrow we may understand, grow, push the boundaries further. Because the Emperor showed us that it can be done. That just because the Old Ones and the Eldar failed doesn't mean that we will, that their knowledge, technology, and power aren't out of our reach.
Humanity may be flawed, we may never be able to exorcise the darker parts of ourselves, we may never be entirely free of the threat of Chaos, but that doesn't mean we can't move forward in spite of it. There may not be a hope of absolute victory, but that doesn't mean that tomorrow will never be brighter than today. The Emperor may be a rotting corpse, but ten thousand years down the line Chaos hasn't been able to destroy what he built.
Regarding the survival aspect, I should of mentioned that as what i wrote implied a final victory, which i did not mean to imply. I was not expecting a post from such a veteran member, nor a fellow Inquisitor. I personally believe the Emperor could defeat drach'nyen, as he did threaten the Chaos Gods directly to the point they left the vessel they were inhabiting, but barring that, you are absolutely right with your assessment and it would be foolish to deny your wisdom.
Thank you for taking the time to read my (rambling) analysis and author such a paragon of a response.
 The Emperor Protects, And So So We
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"There is a terrible darkness descending upon the galaxy, and we shall not see it ended in our lifetimes."
— Inquisitor Bronislaw Czevak at the Conclave of Har |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/06 06:46:44
Subject: HH: Master of Mankind: Sacrificing 40k for Literary Symbolism and a Story?
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Swift Swooping Hawk
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Not really?
I mean, at best, they can claim responsibility for the Tyrannids and the stuff they do to themselves. Everything else lies at the feet of either the Necrontyr, Old Ones, or Aeldari.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/06 10:16:34
Subject: HH: Master of Mankind: Sacrificing 40k for Literary Symbolism and a Story?
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Humorless Arbite
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Also I challenge your point that the Emperor's 'Hope' is the Astronomicon.
We've been shown that the Astronomicon shone so brightly when the Emperor enacted the 1000 psykers a day sacrifice in order to light it in Master of Manking..... meaning the Emperor doesn't even have to be alive for the Astronomicon to shine (oh no he didn't just say it's a corpse-god).
That was the best part of Master of Mankind for me, confirming doubt as to whether or not the Emperor is even alive in the 41st millenium in any way whatsoever.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2017/06/06 10:43:03
Subject: HH: Master of Mankind: Sacrificing 40k for Literary Symbolism and a Story?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Something that seems to have faded in the more recent fluff is the implication that humanity is evolving into a more psychic race. The creation of the Imperium was not the end in and of itself. Rather it was creating a safe space for humanity to pass through this particularly dangerous stage of its development. Humanity is at its most vulnerable as its psychic power increases out of step with its ability to control it. I rather liken it to Luke in The Empire Strikes Back.
Luke: But I can help them! I feel the Force!
Obi-Wan: But you cannot control it! This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the Dark Side of the Force.
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I stand between the darkness and the light. Between the candle and the star. |
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