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Here are the rules summaries and the list builder for Daemons (and admech :p)

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By4SQd_H1eW8SmZBUG9BdWgzakU

Why are daemons so dead. It's like almost no one plays them anymore. The other threads are bursting with activity... =/

Have they been completelly gutted?
The loss of summoning
The loss of deepstrike
The loss of the Psychic phase...

Damn those 30 blood letters look co- I mean those 15 blood le.. CHARGE 3 blood letters left but they'll do fine right.
How the hell do you get them into combat. Genestealers with move, advance charge are too slow and die on the way there. What hope can bloodletters have?

 labmouse42 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Damn those 30 blood letters look co- I mean those 15 blood le.. CHARGE 3 blood letters left but they'll do fine right.
How the hell do you get them into combat. Genestealers with move, advance charge are too slow and die on the way there. What hope can bloodletters have?

1) You can't expect to play in a vacuum. Yes, it's easy to kill 30 bloodletters if you have 3 tauox' primes. What about the rest of the army?

2) Have you actually played any games of 8th? I was playing last night and my friend was able to get his bezerkers without a transport into assault multiple times. I was playing my IG army with things like Taurox primes throwing 30 STR 4 shots out a turn. He got around the problem by dropping combi-melta terminators by my taurox' and doing lots of damage to them. He engaged my chimeras with his lord on a jugg and tore them apart.
Most importantly, he used LOS blocking terrain to help his advance up the board. If you are playing on boards with no LOS blocking terrain, I suggest you change the way you play.

3) If Genestealers are to slow in your games, you need to re-evaluate how you are playing your games. Do you guys use terrain? Are you playing with objectives, or just rolling dice to kill? Those two features dramatically change the same.

4) I'm not saying bloodletters are awesome. I was illustrating how my stacking their buffs they become much better.

I've played 1 game so far as AdMech vs Nids, who I feel have WAY more tools to get into melee. And they got into melee with like 25% forces remaining. Then I just retreated and shot the rest to bits. That's: 20 genestealers, 30 gargoyles, 30 hermagauts. They did feth all. They all died and killed like 3 troops. What hopes do daemons have then?

We had a lot more terain than we usually do, 3 multifloor ruins, 2 big rocks that block LoS completelly. and a bunch of pipes, barricades and other stuff. But since if you see 1 model - you see them all - they die. Fast.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Virules wrote:
Seems to me like Daemons are all now "good" and "fair", which is a problem because most other armies got upgraded to "outstanding." Nurgle daemons are...fine. Not great at shooting, assault, or mobility. But there are armies that are brutal at one or more of these things, so it's not really on parity. Lack of good shooting and transports is just lethal to daemons (it was in 7th and 6th too, but was masked by summoning and Tzeentch shenanigans).

I'm going to try an all-Slaanesh list with Belakor. Should be a lot of fun and be different from other armies.

Try 60 seekers and a bunch of chariots.
Slaanesh heralds are great to spam because of the sheer amount of wound they can deliver in assault and it's a cheap way to get tons of 'smites'.
Hysterical Frenzy is also completely off the hook. Those 20 seekers I mentioned earlier all get to pile in and fight.


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 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I've played 1 game so far as AdMech vs Nids, who I feel have WAY more tools to get into melee. And they got into melee with like 25% forces remaining. Then I just retreated and shot the rest to bits. That's: 20 genestealers, 30 gargoyles, 30 hermagauts. They did feth all. They all died and killed like 3 troops. What hopes do daemons have then?

Honestly it sounds like your opponent was not a very good player. Where there no objectives? Was there no cover?
If my opponent keeps backing up and shooting, I'll hide on the objectives. He should have placed at least 3 into ruins or by LoS blocking terrain. He should have used his gaunt's which are easy to hide out of LoS to just squat on objectives.

The game is not won by killing the most models. It's won by beating the mission. Even if he had 1 model left, but it had the relic, he would have won.

We played the heavy support mission. He has won and placed highly in mutiple tournaments. Don't worry, he can play the game. The problem is when you meet 15 bullets in overwatch alone with twin link. Then 36-108 bullets, twinlinked in the back plus a knight. Yeah. gl with that. 5 Infiltrators detroyed 30 gaunts in one attack.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
We played the heavy support mission. He has won and placed highly in mutiple tournaments. Don't worry, he can play the game. The problem is when you meet 15 bullets in overwatch alone with twin link. Then 36-108 bullets, twinlinked in the back plus a knight. Yeah. gl with that. 5 Infiltrators detroyed 30 gaunts in one attack.

Hey, since you think daemon's now suck, I'll be happy to buy your's off you for 10% of retail.

This was the army I ran last weekend with crazy success. 10 smites a turn. 106 wounds. 70 STR 7, AP-2, 2 damage swings per fight phase. Yea...

I hate spam though... I hope a codex will fix it since they look great on the table(or shelf in 8th) plus they're unpainted :p


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The problem is that I've only bought daemons recently. I love how they look, I loved the random equipment, the crap ton of psychic BS they can throw arround, the summoning to deal with any situation. And now they are the simplest army to play with almost no special rules. All heralds and all greaters are pretty much the same with different stats...

 labmouse42 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
We played the heavy support mission. He has won and placed highly in mutiple tournaments. Don't worry, he can play the game. The problem is when you meet 15 bullets in overwatch alone with twin link. Then 36-108 bullets, twinlinked in the back plus a knight. Yeah. gl with that. 5 Infiltrators detroyed 30 gaunts in one attack.

Hey, since you think daemon's now suck, I'll be happy to buy your's off you for 10% of retail.

This was the army I ran last weekend with crazy success. 10 smites a turn. 106 wounds. 70 STR 7, AP-2, 2 damage swings per fight phase. Yea...

I hate spam though... I hope a codex will fix it since they look great on the table(or shelf in 8th) plus they're unpainted :p


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The problem is that I've only bought daemons recently. I love how they look, I loved the random equipment, the crap ton of psychic BS they can throw arround, the summoning to deal with any situation. And now they are the simplest army to play with almost no special rules. All heralds and all greaters are pretty much the same with different stats...

Have you considered using 4 such DPs to fly up and summon in daemons? Just a thought...

What daemons do you own?

Fly up? You can't move if you summon...
I have 1500 pts or so of each god. FW GUO and KoS. Bt and kairos/loc Gw. Some troops of each. 15 dogs. 2 soul grinders, 3 princes, belakor, 2 heldrakes(they're daemon in my heart) and so on

 labmouse42 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Fly up? You can't move if you summon...
I have 1500 pts or so of each god. FW GUO and KoS. Bt and kairos/loc Gw. Some troops of each. 15 dogs. 2 soul grinders, 3 princes, belakor, 2 heldrakes(they're daemon in my heart) and so on

You fly up 13"-18" and on your next turn you summon. On the next turn you assault, or possibly that turn.
Hopefully the summon mechanic will be upgraded with the codex release

Edit : You might be able to use Tzeentch heralds on disks to advance forward and deliver some horrors on objectives. The horrors can easily be placed in spots for shooting.
Honestly though, most of the good tzeentch units (flamers, for example) are fast enough on their own to make summoning less than ideal.

You can charge on the third turn without relying on luck to roll to summon and have your DP survive and not skipping his 3rd turn... C'mon man :p


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Here's my army BTW:
Bloodthirster, karanak, herald on juggernaut, 15 hounds, 20 bloodletters
Great Unclean one, herald/epidemius, 3 drones, 10 bearers, 3 nurglings, 3 beasts of nurgle
Kairos/LoC, herald, 2 heralds on disc, 10 pinks,, 20 blues, 20 brims, 3 flamers, 1 chariot
Keeper of Secrets, masque/herald, 20 daemonettes, 1 exalted/normal chariot, 3 fiends
3 daemon princes, be'lakor, 2 soul grinders, 2 heldrakes, 10 furies

I can buy some stuff if that would mean making a bearable army... Or maybe make a deal with my friends so I could bring +500 pts they do...

Wings are always cool :p
Also, you think you'll footslog him to the battle? Hah no

Anyone wanna do a unit analysis? I'd do it but I've only played daemons once in a joke game. I've played against them a few times. In 8th I haven't touched or seen them. Plus I did the summaries and list builders so you do it

here's a list I found on FB. Actually doesn't look awful

 DarkBlack wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Why are daemons so dead. It's like almost no one plays them anymore. The other threads are bursting with activity... =/

Have they been completelly gutted?
The loss of summoning
The loss of deepstrike
The loss of the Psychic phase...

It is unfortunate that daemons relied on things that made 7th bad.
We'll have to play differently in the NEW edition. 8th summoning is our new deepstrike, with built in list flexibility. There are still psychic powers.

How in denial are you? Daemons used to dominate the psychic phase with riddiculous spells. And a silly amount of dice.
Summoning now is a joke: loss of movement, loss of flexibility, still random chance with even more wounds at risk and no free pts. Even with free pts it wasn't that great

I've played and beaten daemons in 7th. The only actually good daemon lists were screamerstar and magnus. Summoning almost never won games.
Now daemons are a joke. What skill is there involved in not getting shot lol. 72'' ignore los shots. GL dude

I've never played daemons. I bought them because they seemed really complicated. Now they're the simplest army in the game with almost 0 utility. Just run to the enemy and hope you roll advance, charge and invulnerable well


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If I see a Daemon only army do well that is not pure cheese spam of 3 units - I'll concede that they're good. Until then they belong in the trashcan


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Every army got taken down a notch but daemons were taken down an fn mile. They lost every single one of their tools and got 0 compensation for it. The current summoning is completelly useless

 DarkBlack wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
We'll have to play differently in the NEW edition. 8th summoning is our new deepstrike, with built in list flexibility. There are still psychic powers.

I've been putting some thoughts into this, and I've not found a way to make summoning good. It's that phrase "Instead of moving" that really limits it IMHO.
If you have some ideas on how to get good mileage out of it, please let me know.

This has been argued about for AoS since GHB came out.
You put points, not units, in reserve. This means you can bring the most appropriate tool for the job and deepstrike it. Summoning is 12" from the psyker, so you effectively move 12" (plus how far you can string the unit out while keeping coherency).
This gives some good tactical flexibility.

Have you read both games' rules? In sigmar its a spell. Here you need to sac the movement phase, may get hurt AND have reduced flexibility in summoning only your god's daemons. And the whole point is summoning any daemon for the situation.

yes

How awful is this: 2k pts
+1
Keeper of Secrets
Masque
Herald on steed
Magnus

+3
daemon prince of chaos wings claws
daemon prince of chaos wings claws
2x 4 blue 10 brimstone horrors
30 Daemonettes with instrument
14 seekers
Heldrake baleflamer

Princes, magnus and heldrake fly in first. Slaanesh comes after. horrors camp

 labmouse42 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So, to get those units, how many reserves points is likely to be wise to hold? I

What you do is put most of your army (1500 pts) as summonables. You then pop out 1500 points of your army depending on your opponent.

Like I said, it might be horrible. IDK. I would have to test it and see.

And then a shooting army kills 250 pts of them the first turn and 250 the second to turn. You've managed to summon 300 pts worth of stuff. 850 vs 2k is what I fear.

So what are the standout units?
I made my admech list in like a day.
Still no clue what to do with daemons without resorting to 4+ unit spam

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I don't think they're anything wrong with 4+ Unit Spam.

To me, Brimstone horrors are still the biggest thing. Beng able to spam cheap troops is NOT to be understated, especially when it can still attempt to Smite with a 5-6 and not perils.

Other than that, The Changeling. He's bonkers good.

Yeah but I do

I really don't want more than 4 of the same unit if I can help it. I'd gladly take something points expensive like Magnus to avoid that.
Did you play your tzeench lists, yet?

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I don't think they're anything wrong with 4+ Unit Spam.

To me, Brimstone horrors are still the biggest thing. Beng able to spam cheap troops is NOT to be understated, especially when it can still attempt to Smite with a 5-6 and not perils.

Other than that, The Changeling. He's bonkers good.

Yeah but I do

I really don't want more than 4 of the same unit if I can help it. I'd gladly take something points expensive like Magnus to avoid that.
Did you play your tzeench lists, yet?

I have four separate lists made to test on the 24th. Some include Magnus, others include Spamming Troops and Characters.

Any idea what I could do with this:

Bloodthirster, karanak, herald on juggernaut, 15 hounds, 20 bloodletters
Great Unclean one, herald/epidemius, 3 drones, 10 bearers, 3 nurglings, 3 beasts of nurgle
Kairos/LoC, herald, 2 heralds on disc, 10 pinks,, 20 blues, 20 brims, 3 flamers, 1 chariot
Keeper of Secrets, masque/herald, 20 daemonettes, 1 exalted/normal chariot, 3 fiends
3 daemon princes, be'lakor, 2 soul grinders, 2 heldrakes, 10 furies

Just take the "neutral" ones (Excep furies) and fill with slaanesh and brimstone?

Darn :x

Great feedback. More of this please.
What about Heralds?

I'll be having a 1.5k game vs nids on monday. List so far:
+9 CP
Keeper of Secrets
The Masque
Herald on exalted chariot
10 brims
10 brims
3 nurglings
10 daemonettes
10 daemonettes
11 bloodletters (only have 20 daemonettes)
3 flamers
1 Daemon Prince with dual claws and wings
Soul Grinder
Heldrake baleflamer
1499 pts

Any suggestions on what to fix considering I still have:

Yeah, they're a tad expensive maybe on squads of 30?

My first impressions. Tell me where I'm wrong:
KHORNE

Karanak - almost no damage, really overpriced, nerfed movement only gives +1s to himself. Seems terrible

Skarbrand: insane damage on high wound models per point but really slow and can get tarpited by a good player. Too big of a weakness for thaylt many pts

Skulltaker: cool aura, solid weapon. Seems OK

Bloodthirsters: only wrath of khorne seems useful. But they're pretty much bullet magnets that die/get injured very easily. So you have to be careful with them... when you also can't hide them... huh... seems like good on paper bad in practice

Heralds all seem underwhelming. I guess take the one on foot with letters or 1 on jugg with crushers for the aura...

Dogs got their speed nerfed and didn't get a health increase. With 2 dmg weapons they seem weaker than before...

Letters: great against Primaris... which aren't that great to begin with. Seem underwhelming

Crushers: really pack a punch. Seem like the best non hq Khorne unit by far.

Cannon: actually seems not awful. This one probably needs the most experimenting.

TZEENCH
Kairos - it's terrihorrible. 5++, why is his WS3+? Bad

LoC - not great either... both were hit the hardest by psychic phase change

Changeling - seems preeeetty good to me. That aura is invaluable.

Blue Scribes - anti psyker in a game with meh psykers. Maybe some shananigans with stolen powers but just seems like too much work

Heralds - 4+ WS. Yuck. The disc ones have good mobility so they seem the best by far to follow screamers arround.

Horrors - pinks suck. Brimstones are amazing, blues need more testing with split shananigans

Flamers - such speed, such damage vs hordes, pistol weapons, fly. Preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetty gooooood.

Exalted - seem inderwhelming next to flamers and cost a fortune AFAIK

Screamers - really fragile, nerfed speed, nerfed damage. I'm not sure guys.... :/

Burning chariot - seems much better than exalted, just a few pts more and double the wounds.


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NURGLE
Epidemius - a must for a nurgle army

GUO - actually seems really good tbh. The only problem - getting there. Maybe the only reason to use summoning?

Herald - aura stacking so a must take?

Plaguebearers - take in armies of 30 for a really really REALLY annoying unit. The banner seems good because of how annoying they are to kill

Nurglings - great unit, cheap, fills troops, does locking up shananigans

Beasts - seem really bad...

Plague drones - need testing but seem at least OK


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SLAANESH:
Masque: must have with any <DAEMONETTE> unit

Keeper Of Secrets: seems not amazing. It's missing a rule to make it good or smthn. Like advance and charge?

Heralds - herald on foot seems ridiculously bad compared to on steed. The ones on chariots just seem like worse chariots. Steed seems to be the only viable one... the one that has no model >.<

Daemonettes - apparently great damage. Can be buffed a lot. So as long as you get them in one piece... :p

Fiends: Really fast used to tie up models, which nurglings do faster and are good vs psykers (who aren't that great). Overpriced too. Bad combo

Hellflayer - why in the green hell does this cost more than an exalted chariot when in order to make exalted, you need 2 hellflayer boxes? Rant aside, seems ok.

Chariots - as long as they don't get hurt - exalted are much much better. Seem pretty good either way

Seekers - THIS SPEED. Holy crap. Needs testing but looks good.




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NEUTRALS
Be'lakor: great to buff a mix of daemons, can hide. Seems pretty good

Daemon princes: can't hide, but take claws and wings and they're good distraction carnifexes. Can only buff nurgle or tzeench

Furies: expensive... needs testing

Soul Grinder: luck dependant but doesn't seem too bad

Bonus: Heldrakes: easiest turn 1 in the game? Durable. Baleflamer seems overpriced. But considering bad BS... hm...

Magnus: COMPARE THIS TO KAIROS. seriously. For 15 pts, you get THIS

Ps: if I take a nurgle herald and glue him up with nurglings, can I pasd him as Epidemius?

Yeah, I'll definitelly change the list up a bit after doing the analysis and reading your comments. Are you sure about slaanesh DP? Seems too squish

new list:
+3
KoS
Masque
10 Brim
10 brim 1 blue(with 2 pts to become a brim)
3 nurglings
20 daemonettes
3 fiends
3 flamers
heldrake

+1
herald of slaanesh on chariot
Be'lakor
Nurgle Daemon Prince

What do you think?

Also here's my "to buy list":

It will bring me to: 30 total daemonettes, 40 brimstones and 40 blues, 30 plaguebearers, 30 bloodletters, 6 nurglings, 6 plague drones, 2 nurgle heralds(1 can be epidemius), 12 flamers and everything else is new
Do you think some of these are not "enough"? Like do I need 60 daemononettes, 20 flamers or whatever?
Do you think something is not needed?

 labmouse42 wrote:
Proxy some units and test them out before you buy.

Dude but then I wouldn't waste money. :/

Also Magnus looks awesome, so I want him. And everyone has been praising the other units to high heaven and I want to have at least 30 of each troop(eeeeeexcept pink) :>

 ZergSmasher wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Cover does not effect invulnerable saves

Ah, ok. Well, a Bloodthirster will still get an improved save against small arms, which before would really give him fits since he only had to fail 5 3+ saves to die. Big guns are going to be a problem, but if they are shooting at Big Bad Bloodthirster, they aren't shooting at the rest of the army. Maybe they are best taken in multiples?

Well the only reason to take big guns is to shoot big dudes. That's how 8th ed is balanced. The problem is that the daemon big dudes die too fast before they do too much. Other big dudes either can do stuff from range or are faster/more suvivable

Slagmar wrote:
Quick question - would the Changelings -1 to hit aura work with Magnus? I'd like to continue to find ways to make him more survivable when I don't have turn 1 go first as he is a giant target. LOS blocking terrain is not always an option in all games. Anything else that could add to his survivability?

Works

Also trimming this down bit by bit. Flamers just see better elites, so I tossed the crushers

Thinking of tossing the khorne start collecting, but it has 3 things I don't have yet: herald, crushers, cannon :thinking:

No. The claws are just that much better. Tested game guys :^)