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zamerion wrote: Sorry if it was asked, but, how blue horrors work with the burning chariot?
They give 3 wounds? or only gives the -1 to psychic test? also, there isnt points for them?
There is no wargear option. It's PAINFULLY Vague.
For now, it's safe to assume they're a missed wargear option and we should wait for a FAQ.
I've had TOs rule that, without a FAQ, RAW you gain 3 models w/ 3 wounds. It's a foggy area best left for a FAQ.
Man.. if you can add 3 wounds to that model... that's all kinds of awesome.
Yes. It's a very cheap upgrade if it works.
There's just... literally no other existence of anything known as "blue horrors" in the index, and nothing else in any indexes words things as "accompany" when discussing an upgrade. It's a weird choice for the model, especially when the model is listed as **Points WITH Wargear**
Captyn_Bob wrote: So, to get those units, how many reserves points is likely to be wise to hold? I
What you do is put most of your army (1500 pts) as summonables. You then pop out 1500 points of your army depending on your opponent.
Like I said, it might be horrible. IDK. I would have to test it and see.
And then a shooting army kills 250 pts of them the first turn and 250 the second to turn. You've managed to summon 300 pts worth of stuff. 850 vs 2k is what I fear.
I'm not seeing much in there except Nurgling spam maybe? They're squishy, but they're also a lot of wounds for cheap. Take objectives turn 1 with a ton of speed bumps to tie up enemy movement?
I think there is some potential for a Nurgle list focusing on Epidemius. The buffs he gives this edition can be pretty good.
The best bet for getting him going early is probably Warp Talons combined with a deep striking Sorcerer. You can Warptime the Talons into a guaranteed charge. This would be especially potent if the Talons do in fact get a bonus attack from each lightning claw.
Heldrakes can also get the buffs going early. They can move 30", shoot a unit, and charge all in the first turn. They don't have the highest damage output, but with a baleflamer a Heldrake will on average kill a minimum sized unit of jetbikes.
In addition to the alpha striking units, an Epidemius list would likely include units that have a lot to gain from his buffs. The first few buffs are re-rolling hit rolls of 1, +1" movement, and +1 strength. I could see Warp Talons, Plaguebearers, Nurglings, Foetid Bloat-Drones and Great Unclean Ones getting a lot of benefit out of these buffs.
dan2026 wrote: Getting small squads of Nurglings to Mischief Makers in and tie up squads for a turn or two seems like a valid strategy.
Could give you other units a bit of relief from shooting.
That's what I'm expecting, but not just to tie up enemies. I tried to do the math, but I think I need to see this on the table top... you might be able to make a Nurgle "deep strike effect" denial list, where no area outside of the enemy deployment zone is more than 9" away from an enemy, therefore they can't "deep strike" behind your lines. I want to try this out eventually, but I'm guessing I'd have to pump about 600pts into Nurglings to see if it worked.
I was also playing around with Nurge lists, and you can easily take multiple battalions through spamming Nurglings, netting you 9-12 Command Points to start the game.
I don't think they're anything wrong with 4+ Unit Spam.
To me, Brimstone horrors are still the biggest thing. Beng able to spam cheap troops is NOT to be understated, especially when it can still attempt to Smite with a 5-6 and not perils.
Other than that, The Changeling. He's bonkers good.
To me, Brimstone horrors are still the biggest thing. Beng able to spam cheap troops is NOT to be understated, especially when it can still attempt to Smite with a 5-6 and not perils.
Other than that, The Changeling. He's bonkers good.
Yeah but I do
I really don't want more than 4 of the same unit if I can help it. I'd gladly take something points expensive like Magnus to avoid that.
Did you play your tzeench lists, yet?
To me, Brimstone horrors are still the biggest thing. Beng able to spam cheap troops is NOT to be understated, especially when it can still attempt to Smite with a 5-6 and not perils.
Other than that, The Changeling. He's bonkers good.
Yeah but I do
I really don't want more than 4 of the same unit if I can help it. I'd gladly take something points expensive like Magnus to avoid that.
Did you play your tzeench lists, yet?
I have four separate lists made to test on the 24th. Some include Magnus, others include Spamming Troops and Characters.
To me, Brimstone horrors are still the biggest thing. Beng able to spam cheap troops is NOT to be understated, especially when it can still attempt to Smite with a 5-6 and not perils.
Other than that, The Changeling. He's bonkers good.
Yeah but I do
I really don't want more than 4 of the same unit if I can help it. I'd gladly take something points expensive like Magnus to avoid that.
Did you play your tzeench lists, yet?
I have four separate lists made to test on the 24th. Some include Magnus, others include Spamming Troops and Characters.
I tried out the following Tzeentch list in a small 1000pt test game against Harlequins:
Herald, disc, staff of change
Herald, disc, staff of change
3x Blue Horrors, 7x Brims
3x Blue Horrors, 7x Brims
3x Blue Horrors, 7x Brims
5x Flamers
5x Screamers
5x Screamers
4x Screamers
Burning Chariot, 3x Blue Horrors
18 spare points to provide Brims for splits from blues.
Thoughts:
Fast moving units appear to continue to be very useful in 8th, all of mine were moving at least 12" and could fly (apart from the horrors)
All of my units had a 4++ which is very useful compared to an armour save being affected by high AP weapons.
Morale didn't seem to be much of an issue with relatively small units.
Horrors are much better than I expected and are recommended. You can take a full unit of Brims for 20 points which is amazing value when they all have a 4++ and have a chance of Smiting something as well. On my first read through I didn't think much of the new split rules but having a couple of blues in there and leaving some points spare helped maintain the unit size for camping on objectives. It might even be worth having some pinks in there as well which I'm going to experiment with.
Flamers are an excellent unit and are also highly recommended. They were surprisingly resilient with their 2 wounds and a 4++. Even if they get sucked into a combat, if they can survive the first round, they can then put out some serious damage with their pistol flamers in the next round. They also have the option of falling back and flaming as well.
Screamers were decent, again surprisingly resilient and had a good number of attacks in CC. It's good that you can use the Lampreys Bite as well as 2 normal attacks at the same time.
Burning Chariot was ok. The Heavy D3 weapon wasn't so effective with the poor WS and movement penalty.
Yesterday I ran some mathhammering of daemon units. This first pass shows the damage vs GEQ I've made some minor updates since the image below was taken. See the link for the latest.
Flamers
These things have really good damage output. While not on the level of Khorne Bezerkers, they are very solid, can fly and their weapons are pistols. Point for point, they are great values.
Daemonettes
Especially when combined with a herald, a DP, and in groups of larger than 20, the damage on these ladies gets off the charts. Yes, they are fragile, but it's nice to know which of your units will whip the pants off almost every other assault unit in the game -- point for point. This is even more telling because slaanesh always goes first in assault. I need to modify the chart to show their rending -- but with the rending they are extremely good at units of a T6 or greater. Every wound is a rend!
Bloodcrushers
The math is showing Bloodcrushers as being surprisingly good choices. The reason is they have 3 attacks base, plus 3 attacks for their mount -- unlike the Plauge Drone that has just 3 attacks for the base plus 4 for the drone. Given their movement of 8", their 4+ save and 3 wounds, they are a solid choice. I'll be building another unit of 8 of these guys plus a herald.
Seeker Chariots + Exalted Seeker Chariot
Again, these things just really pull ahead in damage output. The exalted Seeker Chariot is really appealing. While it's expensive at 140 points it gives psychic powers in addition to hitting like a fright train and providing buffs. The exalted chariot is even better than printed here because I did not add the lashes of torment in assault. Normal seeker chariots can hide, giving a good reason to take them.
Khorne Bezekers
I mentioned earlier that we should think of Chaos Daemons and Heretic Astartes as two separate armies. You can mix and match them to your hearts content!
Khorne Bezerkers are excellent assault units, with damage ratings in the range of daemonettes with a hearld. Unlike daemonettes, they can ride in a rhino to get to the fight.
Chaos Terminators
These guys are worth a mention. You can slap combi-bolters on them to do 4 ranged shots each. You can add power axes or chainaxes to these guys to give them some serious punch in assault. They are pretty darn good and very durable for their point cost. Unlike their imperial counterparts, they are not forced to buy powerfists for each model.
Khorne Bezerkers in Chaos Rhino
These are such great buys. Their damage output is insane. The Rhino can bring 1 combi-bolter, 1 combi-flamer, and 1 havoc launcher to have good damage output as well, making the rhino's damage good for a transport.
What about the Nurgle
Nurgle does not have high damage output. That's why you don't see them listed above. What nurgle units have is durability. It takes 18 bolter shots to kill a bloodcrusher (durability rating vs bolters of 2.61) compared to needing 30.5 bolters to kill a plague drone (durability of a 1.44). Plague bearers in squads of 20+ need 9 bolters to kill, giving a per-point durability rating close to bare chaos space marines or bare bones chaos terminators. (Once you start gearing up CSM, their durability per point to bolters jumps making plaugbearers an excellent choice)
Scroll over to columns V-AA to see some of these calculations
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/06/12 16:35:54
Yesterday I ran some mathhammering of daemon units. This first pass shows the damage vs GEQ I've made some minor updates since the image below was taken. See the link for the latest.
Flamers
These things have the best damage per point for any unit I've found vs GEQ of the armies I've tested thus far (AM, Cron's, CSM, CD). They are 50% better than even a Taurox Prime. Even against MEQ, they are top notch, just edging out Khorne Bezerkers. Given their movement, 2 wounds per model, and 4++ they are easily the best unit in the Daemon List IMHO.
Daemonettes
Especially when combined with a herald, a DP, and in groups of larger than 20, the damage on these ladies gets off the charts. Yes, they are fragile, but it's nice to know which of your units will whip the pants off almost every other assault unit in the game -- point for point. This is even more telling because slaanesh always goes first in assault. I need to modify the chart to show their rending -- but with the rending they are extremely good at units of a T6 or greater. Every wound is a rend!
Bloodcrushers
The math is showing Bloodcrushers as being surprisingly good choices. The reason is they have 3 attacks base, plus 3 attacks for their mount -- unlike the Plauge Drone that has just 3 attacks for the base plus 4 for the drone. Given their movement of 8", their 4+ save and 3 wounds, they are a solid choice. I'll be building another unit of 8 of these guys plus a herald.
Seeker Chariots + Exalted Seeker Chariot
Again, these things just really pull ahead in damage output. The exalted Seeker Chariot is really appealing. While it's expensive at 140 points it gives psychic powers in addition to hitting like a fright train and providing buffs. The exalted chariot is even better than printed here because I did not add the lashes of torment in assault.
Khorne Bezekers
I mentioned earlier that we should think of Chaos Daemons and Heretic Astartes as two separate armies. You can mix and match them to your hearts content!
Khorne Bezerkers are excellent assault units, with damage ratings in the range of daemonettes with a hearld. Unlike daemonettes, they can ride in a rhino to get to the fight.
Chaos Terminators
These guys are worth a mention. You can slap combi-bolters on them to do 4 ranged shots each. You can add power axes or chainaxes to these guys to give them some serious punch in assault. They are pretty darn good and very durable for their point cost. Unlike their imperial counterparts, they are not forced to buy powerfists for each model.
What about the Nurgle
Nurgle does not have high damage output. That's why you don't see them listed above. What nurgle units have is durability. It takes 18 bolter shots to kill a bloodcrusher (durability rating vs bolters of 2.61) compared to needing 30.5 bolters to kill a plague drone (durability of a 1.44). Plague bearers in squads of 20+ need 9 bolters to kill, giving a per-point durability rating close to bare chaos space marines or bare bones chaos terminators. (Once you start gearing up CSM, their durability per point to bolters jumps making plaugbearers an excellent choice)
Scroll over to columns V-AA to see some of these calculations
I would throw in a Masque in there as great with the Chariots, giving them a -1 to hit them in combat and can for the most part keep up with them as well. Then buffs their to hit by 1 if in the same combat as them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/10 19:45:22
Swara wrote: I would throw in a Masque in there as great with the Chariots, giving them a -1 to hit them and can for the most part keep up with them as well.
Good call on the Masque. The heralds on chariots are not daemonettes, but the normal chariots are.
I'm very torn between giving Flamers a shot. I can take 5 Flamers, or 2 Exalted Flamers.
Exalted Flamers have the benefit of being characters, and can tie up larger models by virtue of them being the closest available unit compared to other characters, but flamers do appear to dish out quite a lot of wounds against geq models.
Cephalobeard wrote: I'm very torn between giving Flamers a shot. I can take 5 Flamers, or 2 Exalted Flamers.
Exalted Flamers have the benefit of being characters, and can tie up larger models by virtue of them being the closest available unit compared to other characters, but flamers do appear to dish out quite a lot of wounds against geq models.
I'd run them both for different purposes, if you have to choose I'd base it on whether you need anti-horde or anti-heavy more.
I'll be having a 1.5k game vs nids on monday. List so far:
+9 CP Keeper of Secrets
The Masque
Herald on exalted chariot
10 brims
10 brims
3 nurglings
10 daemonettes
10 daemonettes
11 bloodletters (only have 20 daemonettes)
3 flamers
1 Daemon Prince with dual claws and wings
Soul Grinder
Heldrake baleflamer
1499 pts
Any suggestions on what to fix considering I still have:
Would it be worth taking icons and musicians at all seems quite expensive for the effect to be beneficial. I'm kinda happy how the keywords work for Daemons as I can easily take multiple units from the CSM army like maulerfiends, possessed bloat drones and maybe a Chaos Lord on Palanquin to help add some much need heavy hitters for my mini Nurgle army since most of the Nurgle daemons don't really have decent ap. what's going to be even better is once the forge world index for chaos hits we are going to be given even more decent options including two new Nurgle daemon units Plague Toads and Pox Riders ( I wonder what they will be like)
