Chaos Daemon Tactica - 8th Edition

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**knas**

Longtime builder, first time player here.

I'm running Chaos Daemons (Nurgle / tzeentch) but I'm not sure how to best deal with ranged heavy armies in 8e.

So far I've only played a handful of games and my current strategy has been to try to rush the enemy during round 1, via foot or summoning, but if I don't make it round 1 I end up getting blasted to pieces by the enemy. Any strategies for dealing with higher mobility / firepower armies like Eldar & Tau would be appreciated!

**knas**

Some solid tips, cheers!

Cephalobeard wrote:Screen them. Daemons are all naturally, due to no wargear, quite cheap. You can afford to throw bodies at them.

As Tzeentch and nurgle you have the best troops, in my opinion, in the game through both horrors and nurglings.

I find it hard to get a good ratio of horrors / plague bearers down, I usually end up bringing too few or too many of them.

labmouse42 wrote:
knas wrote:
I'm running Chaos Daemons (Nurgle / tzeentch) but I'm not sure how to best deal with ranged heavy armies in 8e.
Make sure there is LoS blocking terrain.
If you are playing on a blank table, shooting armies are hands down the best.

That's why events like NOVA, BAO, and LVO have so much terrain.

Hm, yeah we have had very little terrain when playing, and even when we do some models like the Changeling or heralds on a disc are almost impossible to hide from snipers because of their tall models!

**knas**

Are the FW indexes considered eligible in general? Or just in certain parts of the community?

**knas**

So a couple of days later, what's the general opinion, did the point nerf on Brims fix the problem with them?

And does the point buff on the other bread and butter daemons (blodletters, pinks, bearers & daemonettes) make them more viable?

**knas**

kodos wrote:
Maybe something like this for 2k

3x Daemon Prince of Chaos with Wings
3x Herald of Tzeentch on Disc
The Changeling

4x 1+9 Horrors

6x Exalted Flamer
1x 6 Flamers

3x 9 Chaos Furies

Is 1+9 brim/blue Horrors still the way to go with the point nerf to brims / boost to pinks?

**knas**

I don't understand the obsec rules people are mentioning, could someone explain which units get obsec and which don't?

**knas**

I'm mostly sad about losing obsec if I want to keep my Malefic lords. I guess I can use Heralds of Tzeentch instead but they're not nearly as cheap.

**knas**

Cephalobeard wrote:
Yes. He's very good. If you're going to want to use him, make sure you have an appropriate sized model, and know that in many events it's likely he will be banned.

You mean Aetos is banned or just subbing the smaller LoC model for him?

**knas**

Cephalobeard wrote:
knas wrote:
Cephalobeard wrote:
Yes. He's very good. If you're going to want to use him, make sure you have an appropriate sized model, and know that in many events it's likely he will be banned.

You mean Aetos is banned or just subbing the smaller LoC model for him?

A very large ITC event banned him. This sets the possibility that for other major events (mostly LVO) that he will be banned again.

It's not set in stone, it's just likely. Unless you have a very solid budget, I would not invest.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said, for the millionth time, anyone who uses a LoC for his model is a dick and shouldn't be allowed to do it.

Damn, is it because of possible exploiting or just being too good for his price?

**knas**

Cephalobeard wrote:
Disgusting Resilience is better than Ephermal form on spawn by a slight Margin, where as Ephermal Form AND Changeling ends up making Tzeentch better.

The real choice is to just run Scabby and run like 6 Spawn w/ him and enjoy unkillable Giant Spawn.

Doesn't DR also work against Mortal Wounds?

**knas**

Cephalobeard wrote:
knas wrote:
Cephalobeard wrote:
Disgusting Resilience is better than Ephermal form on spawn by a slight Margin, where as Ephermal Form AND Changeling ends up making Tzeentch better.

The real choice is to just run Scabby and run like 6 Spawn w/ him and enjoy unkillable Giant Spawn.

Doesn't DR also work against Mortal Wounds?

Sure does. Everything.

I feel it's a point that's rarely mentioned when I see mathcrafters compare the two gifts.

**knas**

Never really see anyone mentioning Furies - are they so bad? They seem like a pretty cheap way to get in the face of a shooty opponent? Are they just too weak to be worth the trouble? I think they look cool and would love to incorporate them, but I'd rather not do suboptimal plays.

**knas**

rvd1ofakind wrote:
knas wrote:
Never really see anyone mentioning Furies - are they so bad? They seem like a pretty cheap [i][u]way to get in the face of a shooty opponent? Are they just too weak to be worth the trouble? I think they look cool and would love to incorporate them, but I'd rather not do suboptimal plays.

what

I'm asking a question, no need to be rude about it - if you don't want to answer it just keep browsing.

**knas**

Yeah I can see it. It's a shame, was hoping to bring some into a mono tzeentch army.

**knas**

Hoping this means providing us with an alternative and not just nerfing it. Tzeentch power list such a pile of garbage :(

**knas**

Is there a release schedule for future Codexes?

**knas**

Trancefate wrote:

Also, where do you BUY malefic lords? I had trouble locating models for them on GW site/ forgeworld or Ebay. I'm honestly not even sure where the rules for them are, or how they exist outside of chaos without a model.

Don't believe there's an official model for it. Some people use FW's rogue psykers, personally I use Summoner of Tzeentch, Tzeentch Sorcerer and chaos sorcerer lord for the three I field.

**knas**

Cephalobeard wrote:
Local store has decided to test out a "no forgeworld" policy for a little while. While my Alpha Legion Kharybdis I recently bought and painted weeps, I'm more than happy to bust out this monstrosity and take it for a spin.

Double Battalion, Supreme Command. Pure Tzeentch Daemons.

10 Heralds (one missing, 4 unpainted) with Staves, Magnus, Changeling, 6 Exalted Flamers, 60 Horrors w/ Split.

Welcome to smite town, population obnoxious.

Would love to see you post a battle report! Especially with pics showing off how you like to play your screens/capping objectives

**knas**

Was hoping Tzeentch would get a cost reduction on heralds to make them a viable alternative for a smite army, but seeing the nerfs to malific I'm guessing GW ain't gonna allow such strategies because it makes people upset.

**knas**

avedominusnox wrote:
http://natfka.blogspot.gr/2017/12/new-beasts-of-nurgle-shown-in-this.html?m=1

Ohhh yeahhhh new beast of nurgle!!!!

Cool! Reminds me of the Call of Cthulhu Moon Beasts

Let's hope this means we'll see a nice buff making them viable in play too

**knas**

JakeSiren wrote:
I think Burning Chariots do best when you bring a large number of them or multiple other threats to overwhelm your opponent.

The last tournament I went to I brought 9 Burning Chariots of Tzeentch in a 1600 point game. The rest of my list consisted of 2 DP, Changeling, Blue Scribes, and as many brims as I could take. While it wasn't a super competitive event, I easily claimed first place. We used Eternal War missions from the book and used the total VP gained over the 3 rounds to determine the winner - I was ahead of 2nd place by 10 VP.

The strength of the chariots is being able to move wherever you need them. Either claiming objectives or shooting, then charging in (they are no slouch in close combat with their 9 attacks!)
If you find them in combat when it's your next turn you can shoot with your pistol mode to do d6 s5 ap -1 auto-hits into your opponent or you can just fly away and kill something else. Add in that if someone charges you there is a good chance that you will be able to auto hit with your flamer.
They are just so versatile against a wide range of targets.

You may find that people will advocate for the Exalted Flamer as being a superior choice, and while in many ways it is (being a character and all with same weapon load out), I find that your speed and threat radius is limited by the chaff unit that is protecting it which in turn reduces your effectiveness in controlling objectives.

Thanks for sharing! I had ruled them out of my list myself because of all the praise exalted are getting. BC's are a bit more interesting mechanics-wise so hearing they're viable is nice.

**knas**

I saw Blue scribes being mentioned recently, a unit I had disregarded completely myself.

Is the biggest issue getting it inside the 12inch range of the Aura or the fact that since it can't smite a herald is just a better option?

I figure the -1 could be quite useful against a target like the Eldar, potentially losing their Doom spell on a bad roll.

Secondly I'm a bit confused by the wording on it's second ability:
When manifesting a random Tzeentch spell, does this count against the max 1 casting of every spell per turn limit?

**knas**

Cephalobeard wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:

Don't the Tzaangors or whatever they're called have the Daemon keyword? They're Tzeetch Daemons, just from a different side of the Chaos Books

Nope. Because reasons.

Tzaangor's are beastial mutants, not daemons

**knas**

If the math is correct, the pink blob has an advantage, being slightly lower in point cost but having many more wounds and longer range. Of course once you go down below 20 it's gonna be a different story. On the other hand having dealt the damage needed for that (especially with some splitting reserves) the flamers would have died already.

Flamers still get autohit on overwatch though, and won't be shut down by melee. And should do a lot better against enemies like Eldar with the -1 / -2 to hit shenanigans.

**knas**

Got a LoC waiting to be assembled, but not sure if Kairos or LoC is the optimal choice of the two. Any tips?

**knas**

So I know people don't exactly love the Treason of Tzeentch, but together with the new re-roll psycic power it becomes somewhat reliable to use against mid leadership characters.

I wonder though, can it be used to tie up an enemy group to prevent them from shooting overwatch? i e possessing a warlock and then charging first with it.

**knas**

While circumstantial, the idea was to use it to stop annoying overwatch from stuff like flamers or Eldar. Not for using the target to actually do the fighting. But it's still 2 psychic powers just for that I guess

**knas**

So the odds of the Tzeentch Loci appears to be:

1 30.6%
2 25.0%
3 19.4%
4 13.9%
5 8.3%
6 2.8%

The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.

**knas**

mmimzie wrote:
knas wrote:
So the odds of the Tzeentch Loci appears to be:

1 30.6%
2 25.0%
3 19.4%
4 13.9%
5 8.3%
6 2.8%

The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.

It's most certainly a raw deal for the god of change, but you know?? i still think tzneetch is a pretty good spot?

It has 3 units that are al lviable and have good targets (horrors, Flamers, Exalted flamers), and a strong greater daemon in the form of the LoC. Spell wise i think it's hit or miss outside of the 2 i'd just strictly limit to the lord of change (infernal gate and bolt of change). the +1 to wound helps capitalize on those big 3 units, and the reroll spell could be an okay source of fake CP generation in a mono tzeentch list. I think if your are mixxing you probably won't have too much space for a 2nd herald to cast that spell.

I guess the idea of the loci is to provide defense against melee armies as tzeentch doesn't have any access to anti melee. Brimstones a an amazing bubble wrap still as they serve as cheap rode black for melee armies, but they become next to useless now if your opponent has any form of decent shooting.

Funny enough all of the above (the good and the bad). Might make tzeentch the most common chaos daemons. As any other list splashing will most likely take some tzeentch force as you're good to go with a herald and a few of the big 3. While the LoC makes a great chaos daemons warlord as a very durable center piece whose mortal wound damage make him good at suring up holes in a list.

It's definitely misleading looking at just the loci and expecting them to be balanced across gods (since they affect so many different units), I just wish it would have been an ability that worked a bit more reliably. Tzeentch got a little less specialized than it was in the index where it was one of the top defensive choices with 4++,-1 to hit and super cheap unnerfed brimms. The new buffs in other areas make Tzeentch a bit more accessible and a bit more fun overall to play with and against so I like the codex fort he most part.

Really hoping people are right about the artifacts making the LoC viable too

**knas**

mrhappyface wrote:
knas wrote:
So the odds of the Tzeentch Loci appears to be:

1 30.6%
2 25.0%
3 19.4%
4 13.9%
5 8.3%
6 2.8%

The fact that it's after re-rolls makes it do nothing 30.6% of the time which is a shame. (probably even more often since few units hit on 2+) Pre-rerolls would have been much more interesting since it would have at least denied a lot of "re-roll 1" abilities.

You've misinterpreted that, if it was done before re-rolls, and your opponent had re-roll all misses, then they would be able to re-roll. In your case, they would still be able to re-roll 1s because that 1 would be a fail to hit. Because it is done after re-rolls, it means your opponent can't re-roll missed hits due to the Tzeentch Loci.

If it were before re-rolls then the Tzeentch Loci would be beyond useless.

Ah I thought it made you discard the dice not just fail it.